Grey Knight Primaris

[Valerian]

Im very curious how primaris grey knights will be kitted out though. It was easy for regular Marines, because they just gave them a slightly bigger/funkier boltguns. But we have wrist mounted guns. Will they follow the same pattern? Just give us slightly bigger/funkier wrist storm bolters?

Or will they do the easy thing and not change them at all, but give us psi bolts as equipment?

Something entirely different?

That’s the big mystery. Honestly, Storm Bolters are already fantastic as they are, and so are our melee weapons. I’d be perfectly happy if they didn’t change anything for our load out (on most units). Would be perfectly happy with:

 

2W, 2A (4 on the charge with Falchions and Shock Assault, 5A for the Justicar), Strike Marines in ornate Tacticus Armour. I’d happily spam the hell out of that.

 

4W, 4A (5A on the charge with Halberds or Hammers and Shock Assault), Paladins in ornate Gravis Armour, with some kind of 5++ Field Save added on top.

 

Improve Psycannons to D2 (Heavy Psycannons D3), and I’d be a happy camper.

[Skywrath]

Sort-of unrelated, but what do you think of our odds if a new primaris HQ unit has the Psychic Locus keyword? Personally I don't like the idea of the the BC being the only unit that has it, and one we have to take everytime. Why not give that ability to Grand Masters (both and without suits), or Voldus?

[Valerian]

Sort-of unrelated, but what do you think of our odds if a new primaris HQ unit has the Psychic Locus keyword? Personally I don't like the idea of the the BC being the only unit that has it, and one we have to take everytime. Why not give that ability to Grand Masters (both and without suits), or Voldus?

Pretty sure they’ll just keep it with Brother Captains. Otherwise, there is no reason whatsoever to ever take one.

[Seizeman]

They will change the storm bolters to tempest bolters with -1 ap and exploding 6s that can be used as pistols and give them nemesis flails or something like that with S+1 AP-3 (with 2 attacks base, of course).

 

If they release primaris HQs, we are probably getting all of them. We don't have regular character models, so it would make sense for them to go all in so we can have full primaris armies.

[Skywrath]

 

Sort-of unrelated, but what do you think of our odds if a new primaris HQ unit has the Psychic Locus keyword? Personally I don't like the idea of the the BC being the only unit that has it, and one we have to take everytime. Why not give that ability to Grand Masters (both and without suits), or Voldus?

Pretty sure they’ll just keep it with Brother Captains. Otherwise, there is no reason whatsoever to ever take one.

 

 

I mean that's kind of the point though. If the BC didn't have psychic locus, then what would you take instead of him? A chaplain/GMNDK maybe? What I'm proposing is another unit like a GM which is probably better in melee (especially with his aura), then the BC. I'm no expert on the GK, but every list I make has to have Voldus - BC - [Kaldor/Chaplain here]. I'm just saying having some variety is nice. The probable exception to that rule is the mech list which has 2 x GMNDK, a Techmarine and a BC. But maybe this is all a "rite of passage" (pardon the pun), the BC will probably grow on me on the TT. 

[Skywrath]

Update: Another big reveal planned this Saturday. While I am tempted to dismiss it as the Silent King only, here is hoping there might be primaris that us GK's can use. 

[casb1965]

 

My theory isn't that Cawl supplies them with recruits (as you point out, the rarity of psykers in general and psykers able to make the cut in particular, prohibits this) - it's that Cawl supplies a supply of The Three New Primaris Implants, and the knowledge of how to implant them.

 

 

 

That seems the most likely scenario.

 

However, what if, due to the hexagramic wardings etc. or the geneseed used Grey Knights cannot utilise the 3 new implants.

[Skywrath]

 

 

My theory isn't that Cawl supplies them with recruits (as you point out, the rarity of psykers in general and psykers able to make the cut in particular, prohibits this) - it's that Cawl supplies a supply of The Three New Primaris Implants, and the knowledge of how to implant them.

 

 

 

That seems the most likely scenario.

 

However, what if, due to the hexagramic wardings etc. or the geneseed used Grey Knights cannot utilise the 3 new implants.

 

 

Unlikely. I think it's more reasonable to assume there was a new method discovered for implanting said hexagrammic wardings, but perhaps instead of being etched into the skin, it's etched into the armor. 

 

The other alternative is that the hexagrammic wardings are done in the same way, but the new armor is upgraded with psychic support in mind. Which is probably the most likeliest scenario. In fact, we might even have an additional organ implanted into us, to better contain the psychic powers.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Skywrath

[N1SB]

Hi Fratres, I'm just curious about a minor point.  This is a genuine question:

 

For those that don't want to see Primaris Grey Knights, is there any particular reason why please?

 

I think I remember previously reading that the Grey Knights creation process was a little bit incompatible with the new Primaris additions, so I thought that might be why.

[Waking Dreamer]

Hi Fratres, I'm just curious about a minor point.  This is a genuine question:

 

For those that don't want to see Primaris Grey Knights, is there any particular reason why please?

 

I think I remember previously reading that the Grey Knights creation process was a little bit incompatible with the new Primaris additions, so I thought that might be why.

 

Probably check out this thread here about Grey Knight Primaris:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/363681-grey-knight-primaris/

 

I think a lot of opinions have been included in that thread, which hasn't changed much since now.

[Brother Sidonius]

Hi Fratres, I'm just curious about a minor point.  This is a genuine question:

 

For those that don't want to see Primaris Grey Knights, is there any particular reason why please?

 

I think I remember previously reading that the Grey Knights creation process was a little bit incompatible with the new Primaris additions, so I thought that might be why.

 

Primaris are unfortunately Mary Sues in the lore. The writing for them is obnoxious (even their name means "we're the best") because it paints Primaris as perfect heroes at the expense of every Space Marine that is not Primaris, past or present. People don't like Primaris for the same reason others didn't like Kaldor Draigo when he was a Mary Sue. To avoid writing an essay, I'll provide an illustration.

 

"You are the hammer, the right hand of the Emperor, the instrument of His will, the gauntlet about His fist, the tip of His spear, the edge of His sword! You are a Grey Knight, the hidden saviour of humanity fighting in a secret war against unspeakable horrors. Clad in the finest armour and yielding weapons fueled by your psychic might, you hunt the daemons that threaten to enslave humanity for their dark purpose. 

 

Lol, just kidding, you're only firstborn. I'm a Primaris Grey Knight and my armour is better than yours and my weapons are better than yours. Not only that but I'm bigger than you, stronger than you, smarter than you, and just better than you in every way because the lore says I have extra organs. Yes, my very nature makes me better than you. I'm the next step in the evolution of Space Marines and I will replace you. You may as well not exist. I finished basic training yesterday and I'm already as powerful as some of your mightiest warriors."

 

The Primaris models are awesome (although the aesthetic doesn't always appeal to me) but their lore screams "I am perfect and you suck compared to me". It's ok to have lore that says you're the best (just look at Custodians) but to be interesting and not obnoxious you've got a flaw or weakness (again, just look at Custodians).

[INKS]

On top of the above: The Primaris were created by Cawl. GKs:

 

"They were created by the Emperor Himself with the aid of Malcador the Sigillite at the time of the Horus Heresy to serve as Humanity's greatest weapon against the threat posed by the existence of Chaos.

 

They have the honour of being implanted with gene-seed engineered directly from the genome of the Emperor Himself."

 

 

"The Grey Knights are unique, in that their gene-seed was not descended from any of the original 8 founding Grand Masters of the Grey Knights or the original 20 Space Marine Legions of the First Founding, but from a unique form of gene-seed engineered from the genome of the Emperor of Mankind Himself -- what is known as "the Emperor's Gift.""

 

There is a difference between being created by the Emperor and Malcador and being created by Cawl. Could Cawl have gotten access to this special gene-seed? It's possible, and if GW wants to write that way then so be it. But I don't have to love it.

 

Model wise: If players and GW want to upgrade the range to be more in line then that is great, but they don't need to be Primaris in terms of lore.

Is Cawl a better engineer than the Emperor? I hope not. But maybe he is.

[techsoldaten]

 

On top of the above: The Primaris were created by Cawl. GKs:

 

"They were created by the Emperor Himself with the aid of Malcador the Sigillite at the time of the Horus Heresy to serve as Humanity's greatest weapon against the threat posed by the existence of Chaos.

 

They have the honour of being implanted with gene-seed engineered directly from the genome of the Emperor Himself."

 

 

"The Grey Knights are unique, in that their gene-seed was not descended from any of the original 8 founding Grand Masters of the Grey Knights or the original 20 Space Marine Legions of the First Founding, but from a unique form of gene-seed engineered from the genome of the Emperor of Mankind Himself -- what is known as "the Emperor's Gift.""

 

There is a difference between being created by the Emperor and Malcador and being created by Cawl. Could Cawl have gotten access to this special gene-seed? It's possible, and if GW wants to write that way then so be it. But I don't have to love it.

 

Model wise: If players and GW want to upgrade the range to be more in line then that is great, but they don't need to be Primaris in terms of lore.

Is Cawl a better engineer than the Emperor? I hope not. But maybe he is.

 

 

Not sure the gene-seed origins of the chapter makes a difference here.

 

If the Rubicon Primaris can be employed on Marneus Calgar, it could also be applied to Grey Knights. It's supposed to be the addition off 3 glands to a standard Space Marine.

 

GK were always supposed to have access to the best equipment. Biological augmentations probably fit this description. 

[INKS]

Why would the origins of the gene-seed not matter?

 

I am not sure what Calgar has to do with the GKs? 

 

While you are probably right on Biological augmentation being needed for them to be considered the best of the best I don't think that is what is meant at all when it comes to "access to the best equipment." When they speak of equipment they are talking about physical things. Tanks, guns, armor, etc. 

 

I don't know that these discussions matter much. GW is going to write whatever they want regardless of if it makes sense or not. And I am not saying that Primaris can't happen for GKs or that is doesn't make sense. But someone asked why some of us don't want to see Primaris done to GKs. And this is one of my reasons.

 

The GKs are all psykers and they are far more limited in how many recruits make it to the end of the process. The Primaris process is rough. More so than even the standard space marine process. This means that the failure rate for GK Primaris is going to be extremely high. None of that means that some of them won't make it to Primaris. But it really should be emphasized how unsuccessful the entire process is for GKs. 

 

Would the GKs trust Cawl? The Flesh Tearers don't even trust him and didn't want Primaris, they were forced upon them. Would the GKs be more accepting? I don't think so. Did Cawl even have access to their gene-seed? They are supposed to be a secret right?  Either way it should be an interesting story if it's ever told. 

[techsoldaten]

Why would the origins of the gene-seed not matter?

 

I am not sure what Calgar has to do with the GKs? 

 

Well, if a Space Marine needs a robotic limb, does the origin of his gene seed matter?

 

The Rubricon Primaris is another biological augmentation for making super soldiers. It doesn't depend on the origins of the gene seed.

 

Mentioned Calgar because he received the surgery.

 

 

While you are probably right on Biological augmentation being needed for them to be considered the best of the best I don't think that is what is meant at all when it comes to "access to the best equipment." When they speak of equipment they are talking about physical things. Tanks, guns, armor, etc. 

 

Yes, thank you, appreciate you for restating the point. "The Best," broadly speaking, can include anything, including being made into a Primaris Marine.

 

 

I don't know that these discussions matter much. GW is going to write whatever they want regardless of if it makes sense or not. And I am not saying that Primaris can't happen for GKs or that is doesn't make sense. But someone asked why some of us don't want to see Primaris done to GKs. And this is one of my reasons.

 

Fatalism will get you everywhere.

 

 

The GKs are all psykers and they are far more limited in how many recruits make it to the end of the process. The Primaris process is rough. More so than even the standard space marine process. This means that the failure rate for GK Primaris is going to be extremely high. None of that means that some of them won't make it to Primaris. But it really should be emphasized how unsuccessful the entire process is for GKs. 

 

Not sure I follow the logic. What makes Grey Knights more likely to die from receiving the Rubicon Primaris?

 

If anything, their constitution has been tested through trials that would destroy ordinary Marines. They should be more likely to survive.

Edited June 2, 2021 by techsoldaten

[Brother Lunkhead]

Gene-seed origin should not matter, so long as the biological structure is the same. Now, some have argued that the biology of the Grey Knights is different (and therefore the creation process) from standard Astartes. In which case there might be a problem in applying the Primaris creation/Rubicon process to GK's. However, I've seen nothing in the official lore to substantiate this. If anyone can refute this, a reference would be much appreciated

 

I have to agree that so long that the Primaris process is compatible to GK biology, the likelihood of success should be higher, due to the hardy condition of GK aspirants.

 

At this point, I'm going to put on my moderati beani cap.....

 

=][=

 

THERE...... that's better

As it looks that this Primaris discussion is going to continue, and I hate to stifle a discussion, I'm going to split applicable posts off to Brother Skywrath's most excellent Grey Knight Primaris thread.

 

As passions are very strong in the area of Primaris v Firstborn Grey Knights, I'm cautioning everyone to maintain utmost civility. You are free to dislike or disagree with opposing views, and defend your points, but remember to address the argument and not the individual. It's also fine if you think someone's opinion is weak, silly, stupid, etc.... only, keep THAT opinion to yourself, as it adds NOTHING to the discussion

 

=][=

Edited June 2, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[Sete]

To answer the OP, I would buy into Primaris GK if it happened, in a heartbeat.

And I bet GK would get a lot of fresh blood into the ranks.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Sete

[INKS]

 

Why would the origins of the gene-seed not matter?

 

I am not sure what Calgar has to do with the GKs? 

 

Well, if a Space Marine needs a robotic limb, does the origin of his gene seed matter?

 

The Rubricon Primaris is another biological augmentation for making super soldiers. It doesn't depend on the origins of the gene seed.

 

Mentioned Calgar because he received the surgery.

 

 

While you are probably right on Biological augmentation being needed for them to be considered the best of the best I don't think that is what is meant at all when it comes to "access to the best equipment." When they speak of equipment they are talking about physical things. Tanks, guns, armor, etc. 

 

Yes, thank you, appreciate you for restating the point. "The Best," broadly speaking, can include anything, including being made into a Primaris Marine.

 

 

I don't know that these discussions matter much. GW is going to write whatever they want regardless of if it makes sense or not. And I am not saying that Primaris can't happen for GKs or that is doesn't make sense. But someone asked why some of us don't want to see Primaris done to GKs. And this is one of my reasons.

 

Fatalism will get you everywhere.

 

 

The GKs are all psykers and they are far more limited in how many recruits make it to the end of the process. The Primaris process is rough. More so than even the standard space marine process. This means that the failure rate for GK Primaris is going to be extremely high. None of that means that some of them won't make it to Primaris. But it really should be emphasized how unsuccessful the entire process is for GKs. 

 

Not sure I follow the logic. What makes Grey Knights more likely to die from receiving the Rubicon Primaris?

 

If anything, their constitution has been tested through trials that would destroy ordinary Marines. They should be more likely to survive.

 

 

I wasn't talking about Rubicon Primaris or just upgrading the ones that already exist. I was talking about fresh grey knights going through the entire process. It's possible I am misunderstand the percentages used for failure here.  

 

That being said I won't be upgrading my GKs to Primaris. I already own GK models. And unless it's just crowe or other special characters I don't want basic or elite troops mixed with different sized models. I know this is GWs ultimate goal and come 10th or 11th edition if I am still playing then maybe I'll sell the current force and start over. But it doesn't feel good as a player or customer. 

 

Considering that Chaos is very demon heavy verse CSM heavy lists this favors the GK. Should be interesting to see the box set and whatever books come out at that time. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

It'd make more sense, same as it'd have with standard space marines, to not invent all this primaris stuff and simply say "These are the new models, and these are the new statlines. Nobody says you've gotta throw your old army out, but we sell nicer* models now." Sadly, as explained on page 1, finances dictated the choice, not lore.

Based on their revenue numbers alone, I'm forced to say that the strategy behind creating the Primaris line/lore at the expense of the old line makes total sense. Those of us with standing armies, on the average are not buying a lot of new models (if any) and any time a major change in the status quo comes along (increasingly more frequent these days) we howl. At this point a percentage say, "I'm out!" and pick up their toys and go (group 1). They are now out of the buying game and of no interest to GW at this point. Then there are those who grudgingly buy a minimum number of new models so they can stay in the game (group 2). GW is not going to bend over to please this group either. The next tier (group 3) will shrug and so long as they can afford it, will slowly embrace the new (I'm part of this gang). GW likes this.... but still, Group 3 is not the major buying force here. Group 4 likes shinny new stuff and whole heartily embraces the new Primaris line. GW sees this and says, "It is good". Then there are the new players (Group 5, with absolutely no ties to the old line) who see all this shinny new stuff coming out of GW and buys into it. GW sees this and says, "It is very good".

Groups 4 and 5 are going to be the primary focus here with Group 3 tagging along for the ride. I know, I know, "But Lunk, you purveyor of dubious wisdom, upgrading the old line into true scale and creating some shinny new models along side this will achieve the same objective, as well as eliminating this gastly Primaris lore". Not so, I'm afraid GW is not going to invest in revamping old models to true scale for minimal sales along side new models (Replusors, etc.). Even a go with the flow guy like me, is not going to invest much here. And I'm certainly not going integrate the new with the old on any kind of scale, because.....

"What are you lookin' at, stumpy"

(Apologies for the non-GK example. I'll have proper GK's once the battle box comes out.)

Now, don't get me wrong. I love my Stumpy Marines It's just that the aesthetic is all wrong (it don't mix n' match well). Groups 4 and 5 might buy into this a little more, but not to the extent of a whole new line (i.e. Primaris). Brand new is just a lot more sexy than rebrand old. Like it or not, it's Groups 4 and 5 that pay the bills for GW and those are the groups they are building their sales model around (primarily)..... and it's working...... and I'm pretty sure it'll work for Grey Knights too.

We'll just have to wait and see what the new codex brings I suspect like 8th Ed. Codex: Space Marines, we'll see a transitional set of rules and lore. I don't think we'll see a completely new line of models (Primaris or True Scale) just yet. My money is on a transition to Primaris Grey Knights. Not because I want it that way, but for reasons I've stated above. Whichever way it goes, will have a big effect on how I collect Grey Knights from here on in. How will it affect your collection?

As for the hazards of putting a veteran GK up for the primarinading procedure, well, somebody listed the trials the initiates have to go through, and I'd say anyone who survived that cartoonishly murderous series of calamities** will handle "dying temporarily then returning to life on sheer willpower" like a regular morning excercise. Especially since they're psykers. So auto-pass for all the sons of Titan.

I'm right with you on this, Brother. Big ol' pass for the Sons of Titan

Edited June 3, 2021 by Brother Lunkhead

[techsoldaten]

 

I wasn't talking about Rubicon Primaris or just upgrading the ones that already exist. I was talking about fresh grey knights going through the entire process. It's possible I am misunderstand the percentages used for failure here.  

 

That being said I won't be upgrading my GKs to Primaris. I already own GK models. And unless it's just crowe or other special characters I don't want basic or elite troops mixed with different sized models. I know this is GWs ultimate goal and come 10th or 11th edition if I am still playing then maybe I'll sell the current force and start over. But it doesn't feel good as a player or customer. 

 

Considering that Chaos is very demon heavy verse CSM heavy lists this favors the GK. Should be interesting to see the box set and whatever books come out at that time. 

 

 

I get what you're saying.

 

My GK models are too cool to give up. I have 2nd edition Terminators that look better than the plastic ones.

 

Were Primaris GKs to become a thing, pretty sure I'd just stop playing the faction. They need to look ancient and gothic, not shiny and oversized.