Ulrik the Slayer's Age

[Iron Lord]

 

1) As I understand it, Astartes have in fact a fixed life span. That is, they die of old age, only, they live some centuries over a regular human. I have found comments and posts on the internet describing this as a lifespan that goes for around 300 years, and other comments and posts that describe this as a lifespan that goes for about 500 years. With rare cases of some astartes living over a thousand years (like Dante).

 

What would be the normal age limit for an astartes, and from what point forward would they be considered "old", before dying of old age?

No, they don't. The "lifespan" is because Astartes often die in battle before reaching the ages of Dante or Ulrik the Slayer (remember, Ulrik is the Wolf Priest who chose Logan Grimnar... Who's been Great Wolf for 700 years before the 100 year-time-skip, and it's not stated Logan was young for a Wolf Lord/Great Wolf, so he's probably around 900 to 1000 by the time of the 42n Millennium. Which means Ulrik is way, way older than Dante)

 

Afraid  not - tie-in media gives us Logan's date of being chosen,  date of promotion to Wolf Lord, and  date of promotion to Great Wolf, and all  of these make him,  like Ragnar, something of a young  prodigy.  They  also make  the 700 year figure something  of  an exaggeration - closer to being his actual age, than the time he's spent as Great Wolf.

 

Logan joined  the Space Wolves  in 313.M41, became  a Wolf Lord in 415.M41 (some 202 years after joining the Chapter) and Great Wolf in  440.M41. 

 

The source for these dates is the Champions  of Fenris splatbook.

 

Ulrik did not become a Wolf Priest till the 1st Armageddon  War, (444.M41) and  did not become  known as Ulrik the Slayer till then,  either. Before that,  he was a Wolf Guard. He would have been Logan's pack leader when Logan was inducted as a Wolf Claw - so not vastly older than  Logan himself.

 

 

That's the  only way to reconcile  "Logan fought his way through the ranks of the Space Wolves under the watchful eye of Ulrik the Slayer" and his consistent  role as Logan's  mentor, with the information about Ulrik's  own  career - by making the "The Slayer" bit retrospective.

 

 

Dante, by contrast,  was born in 447.M40, joined the  Chapter maybe 13 or so years later (aspirants must be roughly in that age bracket), became Captain  in 753.M40 (taking  a  lot  longer to become Captain than Logan did to become Wolf  Lord - almost 300 years), and Chapter Master some 1100  years before  the end of M.41 - so,  ballpark, 899.M41 at the latest. The source  of the previous 2 dates  is the Dante novel.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

 

Ulrik did not become a Wolf Priest till the 1st Armageddon  War, (444.M41) and  did not become  known as Ulrik the Slayer till then,  either. Before that,  he was a Wolf Guard. He would have been Logan's pack leader when Logan was inducted as a Wolf Claw - so not vastly older than  Logan himself.

 

 

That's the  only way to reconcile  "Logan fought his way through the ranks of the Space Wolves under the watchful eye of Ulrik the Slayer" and his consistent  role as Logan's  mentor, with the information about Ulrik's  own  career - by making the "The Slayer" bit retrospective.

 

Actually the only way to reconcile the fluff is 'chose which bit to ignore'. As Ulrik could not have been Logan's pack leader. We know that the WL Ulrik fought with at Armageddon was called Kruger. So if he was a Wolf Guard he cannot have been in the same Company as Logan. He's also noted as having fought for the Chapter for 'almost a thousand years' in the 7th ed dex, so he's clearly substantially older than Logan's 700-odd year saga pre time jump.

 

The easier (though still a bit dodgy) justification imo would be that Ulrik, already a Wolf Priest (and having recruited Logan), fought with Kruger's Wolf Guard at Armageddon. But he did so well (getting saluted by Angron is a pretty prestigious feat) that the survivors hailed him as their new Lord despite his position as Priest (and I can totally see SWs doing that), but Ulrik rebuffs the honour and reaffirms his role as Wolf Priest. Is it a perfect solution? No, but imo it's the best was to square this particular circle.

 

[Iron Lord]

 

 

Actually the only way to reconcile the fluff is 'chose which bit to ignore'. 

 

 

 

The fluff is very consistent that Ulrik was a Wolf  Guard at Armageddon rather than a Wolf Priest. As such "Ulrik recruited Logan" (as the much older fluff) seems to me the best candidate for replacement by new fluff.

 

Makes more sense to me than "Wolf Priest, followed by Wolf Guard, followed by Wolf Priest again" for him.

 

Though that version is at least a possibility - maybe Wolf Priests don't have to stay Wolf Priests.

 

 

 

Given how  new Logan is as Great Wolf, having only been 1 for  4 years as of Armageddon - maybe he transferred a few of his best Wolf Guard out of his Great Company,  to boost the other ones? The fluff is explicit that he started in Asvald Stormwrack's Great Company as a Blood Claw, rose to become one of Asvald's Wolf Guard, then replaced Asvald as Wolf Lord. And it's implied that he was "under Ulrik's watchful eye" all that time.

 

 

Wolf Guard are often attached to Blood Claw packs  to rein them in and keep them from wrecking the battle plan - I could see Ulrik as being a "new" (still a century or two old at least) Wolf Guard when he first met Logan, seeing him as marked for greatness, and acting as his mentor until Logan reached Grey Hunter.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

Actually the only way to reconcile the fluff is 'chose which bit to ignore'. 

 

 

 

The fluff is very consistent that Ulrik was a Wolf  Guard at Armageddon rather than a Wolf Priest. As such "Ulrik recruited Logan" (as the much older fluff) seems to me the best candidate for replacement by new fluff.

 

Makes more sense to me than "Wolf Priest, followed by Wolf Guard, followed by Wolf Priest again" for him.

 

Though that version is at least a possibility - maybe Wolf Priests don't have to stay Wolf Priests.

 

 

 

Given how  new Logan is as Great Wolf, having only been 1 for  4 years as of Armageddon - maybe he transferred a few of his best Wolf Guard out of his Great Company,  to boost the other ones? The fluff is explicit that he started in Asvald Stormwrack's Great Company as a Blood Claw, rose to become one of Asvald's Wolf Guard, then replaced Asvald as Wolf Lord. And it's implied that he was "under Ulrik's watchful eye" all that time.

 

 

Wolf Guard are often attached to Blood Claw packs  to rein them in and keep them from wrecking the battle plan - I could see Ulrik as being a "new" (still a century or two old at least) Wolf Guard when he first met Logan, seeing him as marked for greatness, and acting as his mentor until Logan reached Grey Hunter.

 

You misunderstand. I'm not saying that Ulrik went Wolf Priest>Wolf Guard>Wolf Priest again. I'm saying he was attached to Kruger's Company in the way Wolf Priests are, and fought alongside the Wolf Guard at Armageddon while remaining a Wolf Priest (and the collective noun used for the group would still be the 'Wolf Guard' just as you might refer to '7th Squad' without specifically noting the presence of the attached Chaplain). This is in fact supported by earlier versions of the story, as the 2nd codex says Ulrik 'won renown fighting alongside the Wolf Lord Kruger's Great Company'. This makes far more sense to me than a trade of Wolf Guard between Great Companies, something which is without any fluff foundation I'm aware of and seems to run contrary to the entire 'theme' of the WG concept. The chosen band of companions. Even if that was something that could happen, imo it makes no sense in Logan's situation. Why would a new Great Wolf need to 'boost' other Companies? If anything you'd expect him to keep his old guard close for both advice and comforting familiarity as he grew accustomed to the new responsibility. Whereas assigning a level headed Wolf Priest to keep an eye on a gung ho WL makes far more sense.

 

Again, you have to pick something to ignore/change to make these events fit (ideally as seamlessly as possible). Imo 'Ulrik was already a Wolf Priest' creates fewer waves than 'maybe he was Wolf Guard transferred between Great Companies, despite that concept never being brought up in the wider fluff'.

[Iron Lord]

Blame Champions of Fenris. In that, an unnamed Wolf Priest recruits Logan, and "a warrior named Ulrik"  was called out as also seeing greatness in him and mentoring him -  so they can't be the same.

 

 

p6, Champions of Fenris:

 

From high above the ruins, a Wolf Priest watched the combat unfold.  For days the priest had followed the exploits of the young warrior as his crew fought in a series of daring and successful raids against his foes. Now he stood witness as Logan fought off a dozen Fenrisian tribesmen, his axes a blur of crimson movement as they opened throats and hacked off limbs. Finally, Thorgil himself challenged Logan, and the two warriors clashed  over the piled corpses of their crews. As  Logan buried his axe in Thorgil, the Wolf Priest  could have sworn he saw the shadow of a hulking power-armoured giant with a flowing mane of hair rising up behind the victorious tribesman. Uttering prayer to the Emperor, the  priest knew then that the Allfather blessed this youth. When Iron Blood scouts found the ruins of the temple they  discovered only the tangled bodies of Thorgil and his men, but no sign of Logan.

 

 

The Wolf Priest was not the only one to see the greatness of Russ within the young Logan Grimnar. A warrior named Ulrik would remain close to the young recruit, constantly testing him and seeing if he was indeed worthy of the wyrd his mentor perceived about him.

 

 

 Why would a new Great Wolf need to 'boost' other Companies? If anything you'd expect him to keep his old guard close for both advice and comforting familiarity as he grew accustomed to the new responsibility. Whereas assigning a level headed Wolf Priest to keep an eye on a gung ho WL makes far more sense.

 

 

 

What's important is that he's Grimnar's  mentor - (and the guy who put Grimnar's name  forward as candidate for Great Wolf) - Makes sense that if he doesn't trust a particular Wolf  Lord completely,  he'd put the man he most trusts, beside him, to watch him, whatever  his actual rank.

 

 

 

I'm saying he was attached to Kruger's Company in the way Wolf Priests are, and fought alongside the Wolf Guard at Armageddon while remaining a Wolf Priest (and the collective noun used for the group would still be the 'Wolf Guard' just as you might refer to '7th Squad' without specifically noting the presence of the attached Chaplain). This is in fact supported by earlier versions of the story, as the 2nd codex says Ulrik 'won renown fighting alongside the Wolf Lord Kruger's Great Company'. 

 

The 5e codex's version of events (p50)

 

It was during the First War of Armageddon that Ulrik first won renown fighting in the Wolf Guard of Lord Kruger's Great Company. Kruger and his men stormed into the invading companies of World Eaters,  meeting the bloodthirsty traitors with equal fury,  for the fruit of betrayal is terrible wrath. Kruger himself was cut down and, though Ulrik had lost his own blade in the desperate close-quarter battle, he leapt to defend his dying Wolf Lord, killing the three hulking World Eater Berzerkers that had laid Kruger low, in a bloody melee. Ulrik fought like a Thunderwolf that day, inspiring his battle-brothers and even earning the unusual accolade of a grim salute from the lord of the World Eaters himself. The following day Ulrik was renamed the Slayer, and elected by his fellow Wolf Guard as Kruger's replacement at the head of the Great Company. Astonishingly, Ulrik turned the honour down. Though such a refusal was all but unheard of, the Slayer believed he was born to fight, not to command.

 

Ulrik instead accepted the rank of Wolf Priest, and before the century was out it became obvious that his true genius was in the selection and training of new recruits. He was a veteran of so many wars that his tactical and martial knowledge was invaluable, and his natural charisma made him an excellent mentor.

 

 

 

All that, really doesn't gel with him already having been a  Wolf Priest in 313.M41 and in 444.M41 - he'd have been fighting with a crozius, not a blade. And it wouldn't have been a case of "his genius in the selection of recruits" being discovered after the First Armageddon War - not if he's already been selecting them for over 100 years.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

 

What's important is that he's Grimnar's  mentor - (and the guy who put Grimnar's name  forward as candidate for Great Wolf) - Makes sense that if he doesn't trust a particular Wolf  Lord completely,  he'd put the man he most trusts, beside him, to watch him, whatever  his actual rank.

 

But you're still reliant on something that has never been referenced in the fluff before. There is still no suggestion of Wolf Guard moving between companies I'm aware of. Now, I acknowledge that Marines proclaiming a Wolf Priest as Jarl is similarly unprecedented, but imo it's less of a stretch (which is the entire point I've been getting at, squaring this circle requires ignoring some fluff, there's (unfortunately) no easy reconciling).

 

Also, Ulrik didn't put Grimnar's name forward as candidate. He was already a candidate, because all WLs are automatically candidates for Great Wolf. Then the Chapter as a whole votes. If you're claiming that Ulrik's support somehow helped swing the vote in Logan's favour, I'd say that makes more sense if he was a WP, as that'd carry more weight with the wider Chapter than 'a member of the candidate's own WG'.

[CaptainStabby]

Blame Champions of Fenris. In that, an unnamed Wolf Priest recruits Logan, and "a warrior named Ulrik"  was called out as also seeing greatness in him and mentoring him -  so they can't be the same.

 

 

p6, Champions of Fenris:

 

From high above the ruins, a Wolf Priest watched the combat unfold.  For days the priest had followed the exploits of the young warrior as his crew fought in a series of daring and successful raids against his foes. Now he stood witness as Logan fought off a dozen Fenrisian tribesmen, his axes a blur of crimson movement as they opened throats and hacked off limbs. Finally, Thorgil himself challenged Logan, and the two warriors clashed  over the piled corpses of their crews. As  Logan buried his axe in Thorgil, the Wolf Priest  could have sworn he saw the shadow of a hulking power-armoured giant with a flowing mane of hair rising up behind the victorious tribesman. Uttering prayer to the Emperor, the  priest knew then that the Allfather blessed this youth. When Iron Blood scouts found the ruins of the temple they  discovered only the tangled bodies of Thorgil and his men, but no sign of Logan.

 

 

The Wolf Priest was not the only one to see the greatness of Russ within the young Logan Grimnar. A warrior named Ulrik would remain close to the young recruit, constantly testing him and seeing if he was indeed worthy of the wyrd his mentor perceived about him.

 

 

 Why would a new Great Wolf need to 'boost' other Companies? If anything you'd expect him to keep his old guard close for both advice and comforting familiarity as he grew accustomed to the new responsibility. Whereas assigning a level headed Wolf Priest to keep an eye on a gung ho WL makes far more sense.

 

 

 

What's important is that he's Grimnar's  mentor - (and the guy who put Grimnar's name  forward as candidate for Great Wolf) - Makes sense that if he doesn't trust a particular Wolf  Lord completely,  he'd put the man he most trusts, beside him, to watch him, whatever  his actual rank.

 

 

 

I'm saying he was attached to Kruger's Company in the way Wolf Priests are, and fought alongside the Wolf Guard at Armageddon while remaining a Wolf Priest (and the collective noun used for the group would still be the 'Wolf Guard' just as you might refer to '7th Squad' without specifically noting the presence of the attached Chaplain). This is in fact supported by earlier versions of the story, as the 2nd codex says Ulrik 'won renown fighting alongside the Wolf Lord Kruger's Great Company'. 

 

The 5e codex's version of events (p50)

 

It was during the First War of Armageddon that Ulrik first won renown fighting in the Wolf Guard of Lord Kruger's Great Company. Kruger and his men stormed into the invading companies of World Eaters,  meeting the bloodthirsty traitors with equal fury,  for the fruit of betrayal is terrible wrath. Kruger himself was cut down and, though Ulrik had lost his own blade in the desperate close-quarter battle, he leapt to defend his dying Wolf Lord, killing the three hulking World Eater Berzerkers that had laid Kruger low, in a bloody melee. Ulrik fought like a Thunderwolf that day, inspiring his battle-brothers and even earning the unusual accolade of a grim salute from the lord of the World Eaters himself. The following day Ulrik was renamed the Slayer, and elected by his fellow Wolf Guard as Kruger's replacement at the head of the Great Company. Astonishingly, Ulrik turned the honour down. Though such a refusal was all but unheard of, the Slayer believed he was born to fight, not to command.

 

Ulrik instead accepted the rank of Wolf Priest, and before the century was out it became obvious that his true genius was in the selection and training of new recruits. He was a veteran of so many wars that his tactical and martial knowledge was invaluable, and his natural charisma made him an excellent mentor.

 

 

 

All that, really doesn't gel with him already having been a  Wolf Priest in 313.M41 and in 444.M41 - he'd have been fighting with a crozius, not a blade. And it wouldn't have been a case of "his genius in the selection of recruits" being discovered after the First Armageddon War - not if he's already been selecting them for over 100 years.

FWIW, the 5E copy is a pretty VAST retcon of whats in the 2E codex of the event which pretty clearly states that he fought "Alongside" Kruegers Wolf Guard, not as a part of it. It also states that at whatever time 2E takes place. Grimnar has "Served The Emperor for over 6 centuries" and that Ulrik is "even older", implying a significant age difference, not a contemporary.

 

Either way, GW retcons and makes subtle changes to stuff all the time. The whole "everything is canon and nothing is canon" actually annoys the hell out of me, but it is what it is.

[Bryan Blaire]

Also keep in mind that the dates in the books (or even accounts in them), even though they seemed concrete, were already subject to the time issues noted by the check digits and everything - the “record” was much more likely approximations and could have simply been reference dates by scribes trying to suss everything out themselves for Imperial records. The Imperium has never had a perfect or ultimately reliable calendar or record keeping system (it’s a system that loses planets and star systems) due to not having a perfect and reliable communication grid due to things like vagaries of the Warp.

 

Also, a Wolf Priest could fight with both a crozius and a blade, or prefer a blade to his crozius even - but ultimately it comes down to the story they want to tell about a character and what is decided for the character’s personality.

 

As well, I believe it was ADB who was saying that in the “loose canon” typically if an event is heard in a more recent form, typically that’s the more “correct” version that GW is going with.

[mactire]

So we're all in agreement that he's old

[Iron Lord]

 

So we're all in agreement that he's old

 

Yes - close to 1000 as of 999.M41. How close to 1000, is uncertain.

 

 

 

Also, Ulrik didn't put Grimnar's name forward as candidate. He was already a candidate, because all WLs are automatically candidates for Great Wolf. Then the Chapter as a whole votes. 

 

What Champions of Fenris said was

 

"When, on the battlefields of Xor, a Dark Eldar Succubus murders the reigning Great Wolf Sigvald Grimhammer, Ulrik puts Logan's name forward as his successor.  Amazingly there is no resistance to Logan's ascension, and when the runestones are counted every vote has been cast in Logan's favour."

 

So,  even if any Wolf Lord  can be elected, "putting a name forward" may still matter.

Edited May 6, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Bryan Blaire]

Yes - close to 1000 as of 999.M41. How close to 1000, is uncertain.

I think another question for that 1K years or so is how much of that is actual "lived" time, or is it external reckoning? Did he actually live and observe most of that 1K years, or due to relativistic principles and Warp/time weirdness, did he only actually "live" through about half of that time (give or take)?

[TiguriusX]

 

Yes - close to 1000 as of 999.M41. How close to 1000, is uncertain.

I think another question for that 1K years or so is how much of that is actual "lived" time, or is it external reckoning? Did he actually live and observe most of that 1K years, or due to relativistic principles and Warp/time weirdness, did he only actually "live" through about half of that time (give or take)?

Great nuance to consider.

 

The iron snakes novel (Brothers of the snake) has a prime example of this.

 

A marine is traveling so much only a few years pass to him but close to 100 years pass on a planet he visits before and after his travels

[CaptainStabby]

I think, specifically with Ulrik and Dante, they are old as heck both functionally and, um relatively? Or whatever the appropriate word would be. Though it feels like all the flagship chapters have "that one really old dude". Ultramarines have Tigirius and isn't either Asmodai or Azrael up there as well?

[Iron Lord]

 

I think, specifically with Ulrik and Dante, they are old as heck both functionally and, um relatively? Or whatever the appropriate word would be. Though it feels like all the flagship chapters have "that one really old dude". Ultramarines have Tigirius and isn't either Asmodai or Azrael up there as well?

 

Cassius is "oldest living Ultramarine"  and was almost 400 (I'm assuming this was as of end of M.41.) This does make Marneus Calgar someone who reached Chapter Master very young though, even if he was very close to Cassius in age. Using Cassius's age to constrain Calgar's, makes Calgar born after 600.M41, and since he was Chapter Master in 745.M41 when Hive Fleet Behemoth came, he was under 145 as a Chapter Master.

 

Given that he was "Lord Macragge" (so Chapter Master) when he led the Corinthian Crusade in 698.M41, that makes him even more of a prodigy - under 100 when he became Chapter Master.

 

Cassius appears to have gotten into the Deathwatch quite young too - if he was born in 601.M41 or so, being almost 400 late in M.41, then that makes him less than 80 when he was a Deathwatch Chaplain putting down the Ghosar Quintus Genestealer cult, in 680.M41.

 

 

Asmodai was a Tactical Marine in 405.M41, making him over 600 as of end of  M.41.

Ezekiel was born around 506.M41 and recruited in 516.M41, making him nearly 500 as of end of M.41.

Azrael is supposed to have had a rapid rise through the ranks before becoming Chapter Master in 939.M41 - which may suggest that compared  to the other two,  he's  not especially old.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Iron Lord