Black Templars' "realistic strengths"

[MarshalMittermeier]

hey all. this thread is started with the intent of exploring what the most significant strengths of the current Black Templars codex are. first, i will make some initial proposals:

 

1. the intention of the thread is not to match fluff with rules. for example, just because many people like the emperor's champion (myself included), doesn't mean he is a top tier unit compared to other units with buff auras. we can take such sub-par units and in my limited experience it doesnt really hinder a list as long as other things are taken care of, but dont kid ourselves.

 

2. i'd like us to comment on *noteworthy* features. for example, using "knights of sigismund" to buff an assault squad's killiness is NOT a noteworthy feature-it just doesn't do enough. using Litany of Divine Protection to buff an LRC? now thats something else.

 

3. this is not a "cc combos post faith & fury" thread. one part that needs to be explored is if this is even a cc army rules-wise. one of my suspicions is that the current rules do not favour shooting or close combat-but rather, resilience and mobility.

 

thoughts?

 

 

 

 

[MarshalMittermeier]

I'll start: some very powerful relics, warlord traits and stratagems stand out to me.

 

1. epitome of piety + abhor the witch

powerful anti-psyker tech.

 

2.aurillian shroud-this is a big one.due to the nature of playing the whole army each turn without the opponent replying(rather than players alternating unit-by-unit),  in 40k, the first player to get a good, effective alpha strike usually gets a huge, disproportionate, often imbalanced advantage. this relic, drasticaly reduces the chances that your opponent will be effective before you.

 

3. Emperor's Will+Righteous Zeal;Devout Push. this ensures that it is easier for BT to get off a charge before the opponent.

 

4. Litany of Divine Protection. giving 5+++ to land raiders/aggressors/centurions.

 

...right now, none of these really scream "close combat". even #3, if you consider effective use of deepstrikers, is much best used for midfield units that can advance via emperor's will (i.e. aggressors). terminators and vanguards don't really need it that much-though it helps. the biggest difference is, like i said, with versatile midfield units being suddenly propelled forwards "right on time for assault doctrine".

 

all the other bonuses are resilience-themed. "too angry to die" style. (note: this is not "whining". too angry to die is cool as well :P )

 

other ideas/BT advantages?

Edited May 6, 2020 by MarshalMittermeier

[LordValandil]

Just wanted to put out that our faction 5+ ignore mortal wounds makes us even more resistant to psychic armies relying on smite. I know it’s a small thing, but those extra wounds can make all the difference!

[painting.for.my.sanity]

Just wanted to put out that our faction 5+ ignore mortal wounds makes us even more resistant to psychic armies relying on smite. I know it’s a small thing, but those extra wounds can make all the difference!

 

Absolutely agree on this - I've not played much with my Templars, but I found this really handy when going up against a psychic-heavy Chaos force pre-lockdown.

[Medjugorje]

there are a bit more:

 

- Frontline Commander allows good deepstrike armies, 3 drop pods with Helbrecht, Vanguard Veterans, Grav-bomb Devastors and other units

 

- Ancient Breviary + Jump-pack MoS with Litany of hate and canticle of hate + good deepstrike units which have 6" to lock enemy units in combat if they not beaten into the ground

 

- company veterans + characters. 5+++ against Mowo isnt that strong but we can use it against armies which dont produce much of them if we save our characters better. 

[MarshalMittermeier]

there are a bit more:

 

- Frontline Commander allows good deepstrike armies, 3 drop pods with Helbrecht, Vanguard Veterans, Grav-bomb Devastors and other units

 

- Ancient Breviary + Jump-pack MoS with Litany of hate and canticle of hate + good deepstrike units which have 6" to lock enemy units in combat if they not beaten into the ground

 

- company veterans + characters. 5+++ against Mowo isnt that strong but we can use it against armies which dont produce much of them if we save our characters better. 

 

excellent find! i forgot :P indeed,  the drop pod frontline commander helbrecht thingy is perhaps the most clear archetype that the codex can play. bear in mind, though, it is ultra aggressive-and about 50/50 on shooting/cc(massed grav weapons/storm bolters etc)

 

on MoS: it is my opinion that this is an incredibly serious investment (2 command points) for doubtful impact: you could just have a jump pack chaplain with canticle of hate. no need for litany of hate (and hence the cp investment to simulcast). most units either don't need rerolls to perform well at cc(terminators, centurions, vanguards) or are mediocre even with rerolls (reivers, assault squads).

 

 on company veterans: you are right this is awesome. the important thing is, it requires so little investment.

[Medjugorje]

 

there are a bit more:

 

- Frontline Commander allows good deepstrike armies, 3 drop pods with Helbrecht, Vanguard Veterans, Grav-bomb Devastors and other units

 

- Ancient Breviary + Jump-pack MoS with Litany of hate and canticle of hate + good deepstrike units which have 6" to lock enemy units in combat if they not beaten into the ground

 

- company veterans + characters. 5+++ against Mowo isnt that strong but we can use it against armies which dont produce much of them if we save our characters better. 

 

excellent find! i forgot indeed,  the drop pod frontline commander helbrecht thingy is perhaps the most clear archetype that the codex can play. bear in mind, though, it is ultra aggressive-and about 50/50 on shooting/cc(massed grav weapons/storm bolters etc)

 

on MoS: it is my opinion that this is an incredibly serious investment (2 command points) for doubtful impact: you could just have a jump pack chaplain with canticle of hate. no need for litany of hate (and hence the cp investment to simulcast). most units either don't need rerolls to perform well at cc(terminators, centurions, vanguards) or are mediocre even with rerolls (reivers, assault squads).

 

 on company veterans: you are right this is awesome. the important thing is, it requires so little investment.

 

I think its very important to have litany of hate because if your whole success is about this unit, then it should be good supported. And there is nothing better then a reroll from 50percent to 75 percent (thunderhammer hit on 4+)

[Crusader7]

Scout bikes can make good use of a few stratagems. 22 inch guaranteed advance pairs well with devout push. This gives you a 25 inch guaranteed "charge" range that ignores overwatch into a 6 inch consolidation. IMO they make for a perfect target of some of the buffs we can hand out. Unfortunately they can't tenacious assault to keep themselves safe, but you can do some other shenanigans. Feeling a little generous with CP? Popping Skilled Riders now gives you a unit with T5 3++/5+++ in the middle of your opponents army. They will end up soaking up a TON of firepower if you opponent tries to deal with them and you aren't able to tri-point. I like to think of them as a harassment unit more than a dangerous one. If your opponent doesn't move at least 4 inches away from them you can even devout push back into a unit on your own turn then consolidate another 6" to prevent overwatch on your heavy hitters.

 

As much as I would love to stick some knives on all my marines, it just doesn't cut it with our current rule set. What our supplement does do well is mobility shenanigans. Tie down key units in fast combat to dull the opponent's alpha strike and then pick them apart in the attrition war. I feel like that might be our gameplan.

[Medjugorje]

I think I just have to test this tactic - never used until now.

[MarshalMittermeier]

another idea i am thinking is a 3/1/1/1 approach:

 

3 midfield units, ideally intercessors, HQs around them. 

1 "wave 1" 10-man unit (incursors, scouts, etc)

1 powerful "wave 2" 10-man unit (right now, assault terminators or vanguards)

1 "wave 3" unit (aggressors/centurions)

fill the rest detachment slots with light antitank. 

 

the concept completely ignores the superdoctrine, and indeed 10 scouts + 10 terminators + 6 aggressors shouldnt cost more than 700/750 points, that is 1300 points for shooting.

 

the end result should be an army with solid shooting that utilizes 3 assault units to storm enemy lines with concealed positions/emperor's will/frontline commander etc to tie up enemies in cc and take out key units (we will have enough shooting to take out some screening units). while the rest of the army uses our resilience stratagems/relics/abilities to "bite and hold" the midfield.

Edited May 9, 2020 by MarshalMittermeier

[Acebaur]

Here some things that I have come up or used myself to good effect.

 

• 5 man Veteran Intercessor unit in an impuslor with accompanying character - They can move 14 inches in the tank, 3ish inches deploy, 6 inch move, (advancing if needed) and unload a bunch of bolter rounds into something, then Devout Push into combat. That's a 23+inch threat range to tie something up in CC. They have a good amount of attacks, give the Sgt either the Sword of Judgement or a TH and now he can swing away while your opponent has to chew through 10 wounds to kill him. I think this is one time when the Honor Vehement is actually worth it. 

 

• Phobos Captain - This guy is a all start of us. He buffs your forward units with his aura (Incursors and Invictors), denies deepstrike within 12" of himself, has a 1+ armor save in cover and has an awesome gun. His rifle is absolutely perfect for Witchseeker bolts. It's assault 1 so he can get range on just about anything he needs. It does a ton of damage and because he is BS +2 with re-rolls of 1 it's basically an auto hit every turn. So your Witchseekers are going to go off virtually all the time. The gun even lets him pick out characters anyway. One game against DG I killed 3 psykers with him including a DP

 

• Righteous Zeal - We all know and love re-rolls to charge, but our 5+ against mortal wounds is actually really powerful. We are lacking in the ability to deny psychic powers with a max of 3 per turn (2 from Grimaldus if he's WL and 1 from Abhor the Witch). So we have to choose carefully what powers we try to stop. The save means that we can effectively ignore smite powers and other powers that deal a low amount of MW and focus on the powers that affect other things. If you do the math (Goonhammer has an article on it) our 5+ to ignore a MW is about the same as the chances to deny the witch anyway. 

 

• Aurillian Shroud and Divine Protection are a powerful combination that really helps units like LRC weather the first turn of enemy fire. Combo it with a MoF who can repair 3 wounds a turn and it really gives the LRC the survivability it needs to get your big scary melee unit where it needs to be. 

 

• Grimaldus - I touched on it earlier, but Grimaldus is an amazing utility character. He buffs your CC units, can cast two litanies a turn (saving you a CP on a MoS), and if he is your Warlord or Hero of the Chapter he can deny 2 pychic powers a turn with a +1. That's really powerful for a 90 point character. His only downside is he's not very mobile so he needs a ride. 

 

I'm sure I'll have more thoughts later, but those are a few things that I've been thinking about

[Medjugorje]

dont know the relic name (anti psyker ammonution) + Primaris Lieutenant with heavy stalker boltgun (-2 AP and 3dmg)  means if you place them next to helbrecht you can one shot most witches in the whole game.

[Link2edition]

Infiltrate incursors 9inches from the enemy line, lots of them, maybe 6 units to fill out your brigade requirement. Easy turn 1 charges with rerolls.

The #1 thing we are good at (IMHO) is fighting in every phase in the game. Bring units that have good shooting and aren't afraid of assault, back them up with 1 or 2 dedicated assault units, our EC and Chapter master fill this role well.

Oh your stern-guard didn't quite kill those enemy troops? Charge them! You have re-rolls anyway, and its going to be 2 fight phases before those guys need to shoot again, PUT THEM TO WORK. 

Then again I am someone who frequently charges devestators into close combat. Got 2nd in a local tourney doing that once.

[MarshalMittermeier]

dont know the relic name (anti psyker ammonution) + Primaris Lieutenant with heavy stalker boltgun (-2 AP and 3dmg)  means if you place them next to helbrecht you can one shot most witches in the whole game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFxPHqM4pks battle-brother castellan Simo Hayhas :D

[MarshalMittermeier]

Infiltrate incursors 9inches from the enemy line, lots of them, maybe 6 units to fill out your brigade requirement. Easy turn 1 charges with rerolls.

 

The #1 thing we are good at (IMHO) is fighting in every phase in the game. Bring units that have good shooting and aren't afraid of assault, back them up with 1 or 2 dedicated assault units, our EC and Chapter master fill this role well.

 

Oh your stern-guard didn't quite kill those enemy troops? Charge them! You have re-rolls anyway, and its going to be 2 fight phases before those guys need to shoot again, PUT THEM TO WORK. 

 

Then again I am someone who frequently charges devestators into close combat. Got 2nd in a local tourney doing that once.

 

 

i think this and your other approaches in list-building is the best, actually. a close-range SHOOTING list that finishes off leftover enemies in close combat. even a humble 5-man intercessor squad has 16 attacks on the charge, and THERE our superdoctrine makes a difference (because the enemy will be very softened up by shooting already). said squad with assault rifles have 15 attacks shooting and 16 attacks melee. all with -1AP from assault doctrine. that is very powerful for a super-small, points-light shooty unit.

Edited May 20, 2020 by MarshalMittermeier

[painting.for.my.sanity]

 

Infiltrate incursors 9inches from the enemy line, lots of them, maybe 6 units to fill out your brigade requirement. Easy turn 1 charges with rerolls.

 

The #1 thing we are good at (IMHO) is fighting in every phase in the game. Bring units that have good shooting and aren't afraid of assault, back them up with 1 or 2 dedicated assault units, our EC and Chapter master fill this role well.

 

Oh your stern-guard didn't quite kill those enemy troops? Charge them! You have re-rolls anyway, and its going to be 2 fight phases before those guys need to shoot again, PUT THEM TO WORK. 

 

Then again I am someone who frequently charges devestators into close combat. Got 2nd in a local tourney doing that once.

 

 

i think this and your other approaches in list-building is the best, actually. a close-range SHOOTING list that finishes off leftover enemies in close combat. even a humble 5-man intercessor squad has 16 attacks on the charge, and THERE our superdoctrine makes a difference (because the enemy will be very softened up by shooting already). said squad with assault rifles have 15 attacks shooting and 16 attacks melee. all with -1AP from assault doctrine. that is very powerful for a super-small, points-light shooty unit.

 

 

 

I've been playing around with list-building a bit (though of course no games thanks to lockdown) and that's one thing I've considered - shunting lots of auto bolt rifle Intercessors up-field, backed by buffing aura characters, plus a couple of flamey Invictor "distraction carnifexes" - it feels Templar-y, and should be a reasonable list core.

[Medjugorje]

fluffy list. better said "right in your face" brrrRRRRHHHHhhhhh

 

ZEAL

[Acebaur]

dont know the relic name (anti psyker ammonution) + Primaris Lieutenant with heavy stalker boltgun (-2 AP and 3dmg)  means if you place them next to helbrecht you can one shot most witches in the whole game.

 

Honestly the Phobos captain is probably better for this, he has a better gun and can position more effectively and hits on a 2+ with re-roll 1s.  

[Medjugorje]

Phobos Captain weapon has just dmg2 I think

[LordValandil]

Phobos Captain weapon has just dmg2 I think

Just checked for ya; it is dmg3

[Hymnblade]

It can also target characters on its own, so he stays a pretty good sniper even if they don't have psykers.

[_luca_93]

Still talking about BT's Strenght:

 

Markman's honour + Wktchseeker bolts ;) have you noticed should they stack?

[Brother Kraskor]

Still talking about BT's Strenght:

 

Markman's honour + Wktchseeker bolts have you noticed should they stack?

 

Filthy anti-psyker on a Primaris/Phobos Captain - Damage 4 + D3 mortal wounds!

[_luca_93]

 

 

Still talking about BT's Strenght:

 

Markman's honour + Wktchseeker bolts have you noticed should they stack?

Filthy anti-psyker on a Primaris/Phobos Captain - Damage 4 + D3 mortal wounds!

Oh yes. Phobos captain isn't a h2h beast but it could a very good "utility" or support piece.

[Brother Kraskor]

It's going to make itself target priority no. 1 against anyone with a Daemon Prince.