Doctrine changes

[Jacques Corbin]

Ok, so since we are now forced into, and out of, the Tactical Doctrine, does that make Storm of Fire good again? I mean, now there are only 2 turns where it is redundant, and then it is good for the rest of the game.

 

Also, are we trying to end the game before the Tactical Doctrine shifts to the Assault Doctrine? Or do we plan for assault to mop up?

 

As for assault, Primaris are not exactly in their zone. I mean we have Aggressors with their power fists, Reivers with their combat blades, and Incursors with their paired knives, but how do we keep them alive until they get their time to shine in a fight? Because Aggressors make a lot of noise shooting, especially during Tactical Doctrine, and even their T5 and extra wounds do not save them from all the hate they draw. Incursors are usually on the midfield objectives coveted by your opponent, and they will draw lots of fire. Reivers, well, they draw all kinds of fire, especially when they are used aggressively.

 

Also, melee weapons on Intercessor Sergeants. I can't pull the trigger on Thunder Hammers, but I would do Power Swords and definitely Chainswords. Just where exactly do you get power weapons for Primaris?

[Dracos]

On Storm of Fire, I never let something that happens on a “6” influence whether I use a particular resource. 6’s are to sporadic to rely on even when using Aggressors or Redemptors in my opinion.

 

I’ve tried design my units so that they get full benefits Turn 2&3. The game might not be over but if I’ve done my job, the opponent is gutted by Turn 4, and I’m looking for ways to maintain the lead. That said my list has 15 Aggressors, 10 Incursors, 2 Invictors, 2 Thunder Sergeants, and a Grav Captain. Somebody will still be doing work Turn 4+.

 

I’m actually redoing the Thunder Sergeants for aesthetics. If the third party I bought from isn’t a rip off :). So I’ll have two in the list but four if I want them in the future. As far as power weapons. Any Space Marine weapon is a pretty easy cut-pin-glue ... but ... PM me ;)

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Ok, so since we are now forced into, and out of, the Tactical Doctrine, does that make Storm of Fire good again? I mean, now there are only 2 turns where it is redundant, and then it is good for the rest of the game.

What is storm of fire, and how do you mean forced into and out of tactical doctrine? I'm new to C:SM this edition.

 

 

Also, are we trying to end the game before the Tactical Doctrine shifts to the Assault Doctrine? Or do we plan for assault to mop up?

 

Was there an update from the Current codex? The Codex says nothing about having to change doctrines.

 

 

As for assault, Primaris are not exactly in their zone. I mean we have Aggressors with their power fists, Reivers with their combat blades, and Incursors with their paired knives, but how do we keep them alive until they get their time to shine in a fight? Because Aggressors make a lot of noise shooting, especially during Tactical Doctrine, and even their T5 and extra wounds do not save them from all the hate they draw. Incursors are usually on the midfield objectives coveted by your opponent, and they will draw lots of fire. Reivers, well, they draw all kinds of fire, especially when they are used aggressively.

I think you're right, primaris are not set up to do melee. There are very few dedicated assault units among the primaris units, though incursors and intercessors appear to be the best at it in numbers, while aggressors would be useful for taking out big beasties. I think that aggressors shooting is best used as a preliminary to the assault. Either as a defensive tactic, to get overwatch or to knock something off an objective. I really feel that incursors in melee is more of a defensive option, since they are primarily a shooting unit, with all that cover ignoring ballistic skill mod ignoring shenanigans. CC in 8th edition is rough, as the whole unit of incursors could get wiped before they even fight. There doesn't seem to be a mechanic like in bolt action where charging though cover causes a simultaneous fight. I could be wrong though.

 

Also, melee weapons on Intercessor Sergeants. I can't pull the trigger on Thunder Hammers, but I would do Power Swords and definitely Chainswords. Just where exactly do you get power weapons for Primaris?

I find myself looking at chainswords on Intercessor Sgts, because TH are just way too expensive and that hurts me. I think I have enough ways to deal with vehicles, it's hordes that I think I'm going to struggle with most, especially mobs of Ork Boyz.

[ValourousHeart]

 

Ok, so since we are now forced into, and out of, the Tactical Doctrine, does that make Storm of Fire good again? I mean, now there are only 2 turns where it is redundant, and then it is good for the rest of the game.

What is storm of fire, and how do you mean forced into and out of tactical doctrine? I'm new to C:SM this edition.

 

As of the latest round of FAQs Space Marines have to cycle through the Doctrines.  GW also got rid of the Adaptive Strategy stratagem to prevent you from staying in Devastator Doctrine for a second turn.

 

The way Combat Doctrines works now is that Turn 1 you are in Dev, Turn 2 you are in Tact, Turn 3 you are in Tact or Assault, and turn 4+ you are in Assault.

 

The FAQ included a comment from GW and a TO explaining why they made the change.  Personally I think they both missed the root cause and instead focused on penalizing the current beneficiary of the situation.  The same match up in a pick up game that was so problematic in the tournament environment does not have the same results, because the typical pick up game has substantially more terrain on the table (25%+) than the typical tournament table (roughly 17-21%).  It doesn't sound like much but it is significant.

 

Take this picture as an example.  Everyone notices the 3 repulsors perched on top of the building and thinks that is the problem.  But did you notice that every Imperial Knight at the far end of the board either has LOS already or will have LOS after a single movement phase to the building that all of the marines are cowering behind.  You would think that with 6 feet of table (7 feet if you count the diagonal) you could maybe prevent at least 1 of the 6 knights from having LOS turn 1.  Maybe I'm asking for the moon.

 

 

Storm of Fire is a Space Marine Warlord Trait (page 178 of C:SM).  Units within 6 inches of the warlord get to improve the AP of ranged attacks by 1 on the roll of a 6.

[Dracos]

Ulrik @ for Storm of Fire

basically each roll of “6” to wound increases that particular shots AP by one. I’ve never felt AP was such an issue I would use a Warlord Trait on a one in six chance of making a single Bolt Rifle shot -2 AP.

 

On forcing to move through the Doctrines. There’s been a number of FAQs for each Codex and Supplement. Check the Warhammer Community site. This was the latest nerf that went down right as Covid ramped up.

 

I disagree on the Thunder Sergeants. For Primaris I’ve found it’s a cheap way to get damage out of the Intercessor squad SftS. Your Mileage May Vary depending on your build of course. Otherwise I’m with you on a lot of the other stuff. I miss the days when melee combat to hit worked like Wounding except comparing WS of each model against each other is too much for newbies to math? Seems a lame explanation considering way things have gone. Imagine if it was actually harder to hit someone in combat because they had a better WS. The universe would crumble. ;)

Edited May 11, 2020 by Dracos

[MajorNese]

Ok, so since we are now forced into, and out of, the Tactical Doctrine, does that make Storm of Fire good again? I mean, now there are only 2 turns where it is redundant, and then it is good for the rest of the game.

 

Also, are we trying to end the game before the Tactical Doctrine shifts to the Assault Doctrine? Or do we plan for assault to mop up?

I guess the answer of both boils down to playstyle and opponent.

 

Our supplement options are geared towards getting into position in turn 1 or 2, to build up pressure and take the initiative. Turn 1 mass infantry charges are doable, as are turn 2 massed bolters/charges. Your opponent might have similar ideas, so waiting for later doctrines might not work at all.

 

IMO, the assault doctrine is only good for mopping up when one (or both) sides are decimated, and a few ObSec units are still wrestling for objectives. The game is often decided by turn 2 or 3, so I aim for bringing all firepower (and swordpower) to bear at the same time, instead of having units arrive piecemeal in front of a full gun/swordline just to maximize buffs of individual units. It does not matter if knives don't get AP-1 if you can shove a truckload of them in your opponent's face when it does not suit his plans. Primaris might not be good in CC on paper, but the sheer number of attacks and the fact that Intercessors/Reivers/Incursors are quite cheap will mean we can just drown the target in dice.

[Jacques Corbin]

Excellent points all around. My playstyle is pretty much that my opponent walked into an ambush. As soon as we set up terrain, I am imagining kill boxes, drop zones, and calculating how my opponent will deploy. Then, as I deploy, I try to further affect his deployment. My favorite deployment trick, especially versus tau, is to put down my 2 Thunderfire Cannons first and second, some distance apart, and their ranges overlapping in a large part of the center of his deployment zone. So, that forces them to decide whether to try to weather fire from 2 TFCs in the middle, or split their forces between each side, and if one side has more characters or high value targets, then that is the TFC they will go after first.

 

But, yeah, I agree, given our supplement options, we should be deciding the game by turn 3. I am tempted to try a Chaplain with relic crozius, the self buff litany, and have a Librarian cast might of heroes on him. Will have to see how that stacks up when I get off work.

[Dracos]

Chapter Tactics had a nice podcast about thinking like chess masters. Very much RG thinking to me. Didn’t like when Pablo thought RG should be nerfed though. How about taking your own advice and planning for shenanaigans. Box out the drop zones and all you worry about is infiltration.

 

Okay it’s not that easy but pretty similar to Gene Stealers and darn Shining Spears are crazy to predict.

Edited May 13, 2020 by Dracos

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Ulrik @ for Storm of Fire

basically each roll of “6” to wound increases that particular shots AP by one. I’ve never felt AP was such an issue I would use a Warlord Trait on a one in six chance of making a single Bolt Rifle shot -2 AP.

That's aggressively ok. I guess if you're at a loss for a WT then go for it I guess.

 

 

On forcing to move through the Doctrines. There’s been a number of FAQs for each Codex and Supplement. Check the Warhammer Community site. This was the latest nerf that went down right as Covid ramped up.

That seems like garbage. Are static armies just supposed to suck after turn 1? Are assault armies supposed to suck until turn 4?

 

 

I disagree on the Thunder Sergeants. For Primaris I’ve found it’s a cheap way to get damage out of the Intercessor squad SftS. Your Mileage May Vary depending on your build of course. Otherwise I’m with you on a lot of the other stuff. I miss the days when melee combat to hit worked like Wounding except comparing WS of each model against each other is too much for newbies to math? Seems a lame explanation considering way things have gone. Imagine if it was actually harder to hit someone in combat because they had a better WS. The universe would crumble.

I just can't seem to find the points for them, TH seem expensive for what they do, but I'm not the most assault focused player, maybe I need to be? I miss the initiative deterrence to charging. Like why would guardsmen charge Space Marines? Only conscript blobs would and then only to tarpit a melee unit and keep them from killing something important. Other armies would charge at lower initiative just simply because there were more models in the unit than the opponent could kill in a turn. I dislike the idea that a squad of GEQ can wipe MEQ if they get the charge. I actually miss USR's...

Edited May 14, 2020 by Ulrik_Ironfist