"Aggressive" Black Legion: Game over (Pictures in last post)

[Prot]

I'm planning a 'funner' game for later today.

 

I have a friend that.... to be frank, I've been beating him quite often as of late and he's pulling out some Dark Angels. I really want him to have a fun game, but I don't want to throw in the towel, or appear to be anyway.

 

So I came to the conclusion that my worst army is my Black Legion collection. I think the most competitive Black Legion force I could possibly come up with would still be at the bottom of the pile for what I can bring to the table.

 

Since he plays Dark Angels I thought this would make for a very cool, and fun thematic battle for him As I say this please understand that he will be bringing his best. He's not taking 'easy' lists or anything like that, but it is Dark Angels, not.... Iron Hands here.

 

My thinking is that I've had my teeth kicked in a lot from using Abaddon (competitively) so he's coming out for sure. As the title suggests, I want the Warmaster to lead a fully aggressive force.

 

I want a dual battalion. So I have the following core I'd like to suggest:

 

Abaddon

Sorc (newly painted!)

Dark Apostle with plebs

Master of Possession

 

So if I want to be aggressive, and give him a run for his money with this.... What do you guys think of using an assault force of:

 

Terminators w/Combi weapons coming in hot with Abe. (Mostly Combi Plas?)

Plus a bunch of Disco Lords leading a pair of Venom Crawlers?

 

I think this would be pretty mid to low level stuff but might still have some punch?

 

Or toss the Daemon Engines and go with a bunch of Black Legion Possessed? 

 

Thoughts?

 

Edited May 12, 2020 by Prot

[Hannibal]

I think the more Daemon Engines you bring the better your list is.

 

That being said I do not really understand what you´re aiming for. Do you like to run the best possible Black Legion list (and you think it will still be bad?) OR do you like to run a non-maxed list to give your friend more of a chance to win that game?

[Irate Khornate]

So I absolutely love the Thematic of Black Legion going full tip of the spear. However I will say unless you're bringing either gunline demon engines or foot slogging mobs of possessed your master of possessions won't see much use. I think it will be something that with moderate counter deployment and liberal usage of anti-tank weaponry your friend should be able to have a fairly decent game against you.

 

I will say this, three hell chickens are an amazing Alpha distraction carnifex.

 

Actually, seeing as how the points are now going ignore the chickens

Edited May 11, 2020 by Irate Khornate

[Prot]

I think the more Daemon Engines you bring the better your list is.

 

That being said I do not really understand what you´re aiming for. Do you like to run the best possible Black Legion list (and you think it will still be bad?) OR do you like to run a non-maxed list to give your friend more of a chance to win that game?

 

I'm aiming for a middle of the road, semi competitive list. I don't believe Daemon engines mixed with some Termies would be very competitive. In fact I'm pretty sure it isn't.

 

The Daemon Engines are fun, I agree. I hope to keep them in.

 

So I absolutely love the Thematic of Black Legion going full tip of the spear. However I will say unless you're bringing either gunline demon engines or foot slogging mobs of possessed your master of possessions won't see much use. I think it will be something that with moderate counter deployment and liberal usage of anti-tank weaponry your friend should be able to have a fairly decent game against you.

 

I will say this, three hell chickens are an amazing Alpha distraction carnifex.

 

Actually, seeing as how the points are now going ignore the chickens

 

Yea, I know they'll draw some good firepower. They always do. We play with adequate ruins though so most people only have to get off the floor to effectively neutralize them. :)

[Irate Khornate]

Got a question. Do you have any blood slaughterers?

[Prot]

Got a question. Do you have any blood slaughterers?

Nope I don't.

So we had the game... crazy, crazy game.

This is the thing. I took a list I've taken to ITC GTs and it performed very lethargically.

However... my Dark Angel opponent took something I completely did not expect.... Pure Ravenguard. Which, to be 100% honest, is a HORRIBLE match up for him. Every attack my Disco's do is going to pop a bike on an unsaved wound. 90% of his shots aside from a Lascannon Dread, and his Black Knights seemed like a Bolter, firing into a T6 model with a 2+ save.

This is how it looked:

It's Dawn of War, and I have first turn. We've been playing Maelstrom but trying a new ITC rule where there is NO SEIZE roll. I deploy right on the front line.

Turn 1: I'm right into him. My Havocs (I Only took one squad and left the Chaincannons out of the list.) and my Baleflamers manage to kill off all of his Plasma bikers. The -1 to hit Darkshroud did make it difficult, as I had to double shoot the Havocs to barely finish off the last bike to the man, and get a kill.

- My first turn charge results in a really weird exchange. I blow a CP so I can take my one advanced Disco and do this but it results in me being able to kill 5 Intercessors. He pops Transhuman Physiology which made a HUGE difference to his losses. However in his turn with his 5 guys remaining, he uses two strats. One causes 6's to hit to proc an extra attack. The other strat says 6's to hit, auto wound.

I'm not kidding you... he must have hit and wounded me 18 times! But on a 2 + save I fail 3 times.

He ends up really backed up now and I have the whole goon squad of Daemon Engines creeping up on him.

Honestly even though T1 went really well for me, I did know what to expect, as he did have a plethora of HQ's waiting in the wings, including Sammael.

- Well this is after his turn. What you see is Sammael made one massive mistake. He split his attacks between 2 Disco's. I told him not to do it.... he admitted it was not a great idea, but was swinging for the fences at this point. Sure enough he leaves my 1 damaged Disco on ONE WOUND! He also surrounded that damaged Disco with 5 Bikers. So before they swing, I interrupt, and kill all 5 bikes.

- Then from the other side, his other squad of bikers attacks my healthier Disco, and they only do about 4 wounds after all is said and done. In return my Disco destroys that 5 man biker unit out right.

- So in my turn I feel pretty bad.... this wasn't what I was intending. But I pull back a bit with some units, I don't charge everything in, but I get stupid lucky with my Oblits and in one volley I somehow destroy the Dark Shroud without any re rolls (this never happens).

- Abaddon comes in with Plasma Termies, and they get super lucky and kill another squad of Intercessors. It just went really bad from there. Venom Crawlers do their thing and it's just brutal.

- He retailiates and kills 2 of the Disco Lords from shooting! But at this point it's all but over.

I don't know how this happened... a really, really bad match up. I'm used to armies standing in ruins and laughing at my Daemon Engine army. I intentionally thought it would go this way again, but it went so far in my favour I felt like I couldn't roll a '1' with a hundred dice. It was just that kind of game.

So there you have it. My best intentions went sideways. We realized after he probably would have had a better time if I just did my typical "Eldar" or my typical "AdMech". It's so funny how I brought out something that's been massively unsuccessful in a competitive sense, and it happens to be the perfect counter to his experimental list!

[battle captain corpus]

Sounds like one of those matches that happens once in a blue moon! I remember playing a similar game against Genestealer Cult with my Black Legion once and trouncing them in two turns! Felt odd and weird but these things happen I guess!

 

How’d the new Sorcerer fair, you didn’t mention him much? :)

 

BCC

[Prot]

Yea, I didn't do a blow by blow, but the Sorc is vital. Warp Time Turn 1 resulted in that charge really. I could have charged a second Disco with the use of the Detachment Strat, but I underestimated his first turn ability to survive with the use of Transhuman on the Intercessors. If he would have even had an axe in that squad I would have probably bounced.

 

The Sorc also tried a T2 Death Hex on the Chaplain he was using, but it was blocked by his libby. :)

 

It certainly was an oddball game. I know first hand my list can bounce really hard off of a strong match up, especially flyers, and/or infantry in ruins. Massed heavy firepower lists are a problem too. He actually had none of that really and I had a ridiculous dice rolling game on top of it. Like I said I felt like a heel. I didn't want to.. .throw a game, but this result bordered on ridiculous. At one point he just said after his turn 1... okay go ahead, table me. He was a very, very good sport about it. That's what happens I guess when you try something outside the box, and your opponent is 'experimenting' with something. 

[Hannibal]

 

 

I don't know how this happened... a really, really bad match up. I'm used to armies standing in ruins and laughing at my Daemon Engine army. I intentionally thought it would go this way again, but it went so far in my favour I felt like I couldn't roll a '1' with a hundred dice. It was just that kind of game.

 

So there you have it. My best intentions went sideways. We realized after he probably would have had a better time if I just did my typical "Eldar" or my typical "AdMech". It's so funny how I brought out something that's been massively unsuccessful in a competitive sense, and it happens to be the perfect counter to his experimental list!

 

 It´s not your fault I believe. He brought a spam list (yes, pure Ravenwing is a spam) and there always is the possibility of running into hard counters with spam lists. That´s why I avoid spam lists if I go for a friendly game. The chance to get a one sided game is just too huge.

 

IMO the only thing that offers "balanced games" with a slight chance is Highlander (every single datasheet just once, besides TROOPS of course) or "every single datasheet max twice". There are other house rules with a similar effect. The idea of all of them: diverse armies. Offer a target for every weapon your opponent brings and bring a weapon to counter every possible unit type.

 

HTG

 

[WarriorFish]

Agreed. This is part of what makes the game fun, different match ups can provide different results. If someone takes a lopsided list and falls to bits against an unexpected counter... well, that's how it can go - you made your gamble and it didn't pay off. This is why whenever I take a themed list that might not be that balanced (e.g. Termiegeddon, Dreadnut Heaven, etc) I go into games knowing that I am likely hampering my chances of victory. A bad list is ok if you know it's bad, right?

 

What I took away from this game most is that I really need to start on my Lord Disco The army looks great! I'm sure the dice gods looked favourably upon you too by comparison, so there is that to consider also

[Prot]

Yea it's just so weird. The last ITC GT I took this form of list, I believe it was a stronger variant because it has a stronger shooting phase. 

 

In this version I put even more eggs in the 'daemon engine basket' so to speak. The result is definitely 'funner' because I get to put an extra Disclord on the table, and Terminators. The cost is worse troops, with worse weapons. less Havocs, no Chaincannons, less Oblits.

 

The fact is in that ITC GT my widest margins of victory were -against- Daemon Engine armies using the detachment! In fact my only victory by tabling someone was a guy using the quintessential "Soul Forged Pack" detachment utilizing a Flawless Host Daemon Engine detachment, and it was propped up by the Thousand Sons supreme command using Ahriman of course dishing out buffs, and warp Time.

 

My opponent new what I was shooting for, it just went incredibly silly. That is such a funny thing about this game sometimes. You build something meant to be a little goofy, and angled towards fun and flavour, and it happens to do the opposite on the right day.

 

+++++++++++++++++

 

On a side note I have to admit it was incredibly fun playing a terrorizing list like this. It's too bad it has so many ugly counters to it. I wonder if it's worth revisiting for competitive play with a little adjusting?

[WarriorFish]

I've had that a few times, take a fun list to a theme accepting that you're probably going to lose only to come up against an army that is the wrong match and end up doing rather well instead... Not an unwelcome surprise but a surprise all the same - sometimes to my opponent too :lol:

 

I think it's worth tweaking the list to see what can be done, as if you had a lot of fun with it that is merit enough to try it again?

[battle captain corpus]

Potentially maybe revisiting the list again then, with some minor tweaks like you say Prot?

 

Fun and fluffy is always good and appeals to me every time...but I'm very aware we both play in different settings! Though I'd love to attend some 40K tournaments again in the future, I'm so out of the loop here it's crazy! XD

 

If you did take this list again in a competitive setting what do you think you'd keep/drop bud?

 

BCC

[Prot]

That is a good question! In fact I look at it's success in a fish bowl, and I'm thinking of taking a version of this into my next game which will be much, much more competitive though.

 

I will work on the list and report potential changes here and see if we get some ideas going.

Edited May 14, 2020 by WarriorFish
Double post error fixed

[Prot]

So I'm thinking of changing the list at this point, but not sure how. For reference, I played the exact same list against Tau and recorded the results with some pics here: Black Legion vs. Tau.

 

For those that don't want to read the batrep, here's the results:

 

We went 7 turns, I was almost tabled in T4, but held on to a 20-19 win vs the Tau even though I only had 10 Cultists on the table for turns 6-7!!!

 

 

 

When I look at the list and the results of the games.... the reality is some units are not pulling their weight. 

- Troops. All cultists,  : Terrible. My using 2 squads of CSM just running around objectives is kind of wasteful. The 4, min sized squads of Cultists are just kill points, but the extra CP is really important.

 

- Venomcrawlers. This would be the number two most disappointing unit in the list. They rely quite heavily on the Venomcrawlers. I don't like Defilers, and the one thing these do bring is decent CC damage, and 'assault' weapons that are quite swingy but really even at 115 points each, they are easily replaced.

 

- Discolords. This is a really hard one. Is it nice to put extreme pressure on Tau? Sure, but they really are quite easy to kill. Very hard to hide, and usually only one can benefit from being very fast as Black Legion (I had Talisman of burning blood on one model and he failed a 5" charge in T1). So they all died without really don't any damage.

 

- Obliterators. I know these guys are still swingy, like a lot of Chaos stuff GW likes to pin us with stuff that rewards worship or punishes you on a whim. But in this game I was fortunate to get 2 damage and 3 damage shots off with Cacaphony. That said. the 3 of them took out a stormsurge and quickly died from a relic Tau Riptide gun... each failed save outright kills an Oblit. Scary. Still I consider this a MUST take unit with Abaddon and an army with fairly lethargic shooting. I know these guys still get a lot of hate, but all things considered they get a shot. Perhaps I need to support them better?

 

- Terminators. Against Dark Angel bikes they were really good, but 90% of what they saw was bolter rounds at -1 AP.  Against Tau they were easily picked off with all the 2 Damage weapons. The problem was I didn't have enough targets so it was easy to point and click these guys off the board. Having 3 Plasma's in the squad didn't work this game, as I was reluctant to overcharge with so much -1 to hit stuff (even with Abe close by).

 

 

Potential Changes:

 

- The problem with 3 Disco's is they are hard to buff in these circumstances. So I'm considering Chaos Possessed. Perhaps in 2 Rhinos, or one squad that is easier to buff.

 

- If I can't convince myself to drag out the Possessed I might just pull out my Chaos Knights again. Have them draw a ton of firepower, and let the Abaddon Deep Strike contingent pressure key points on the table.

 

- Perhaps 2 mid sized squads of Zerkers in Rhino's with an Exalted Champ using Ghorisvex's teeth?

Edited May 22, 2020 by Prot

[battle captain corpus]

2 units of Zerkers with exalted champ is a good call!

 

Cultists...yeah I’m still struggling with them. They have their place and help get those cheap CP detachment slots filled...but they just don’t do much for me. But abstractly CSM squads tooled up die almost as quickly...it’s a tough one!

 

Sounds like w great game though!

 

BCC

[Prot]

Thanks. It’s really funny how differently me and my opponent viewed that game. 
 

he couldn’t believe I was winning and I just wanted to concede. In all honesty I despise playing Tau. It’s the least fun matchup I can ever have in 8th edition. I play them only to keep sharp for competitive play because aside from the odd blip on the radar they are always up there. 
 

but win or lose, they’re always my least favourite games of 40k. It’s one of the least interactive games Im ever going to have. I know how to beat them (if possible) but that part of the game isn’t as satisfying to me as it was, say 5 years ago. 
 

it was a good exercise in proving to my Dark Angel opponent that , no this isn’t the world beater list he thinks it was. 

Edited May 22, 2020 by Prot

[Tallarn Commander]

Yes, Tau have had been annoyingly avoiding/neutering our Chaos assaults for 19 years. Sigh.

 

Although back in 3rd/4th Edition you'd sometimes comes to grips with them if they played "Fish of Fury" lists. Games against those sorts of dynamic lists were always more fun than the usual Charge of the Light Brigade games with Chaos against Tau.

 

I second the 2 Squads of Zerkers in Rhinos with champ fie support. Mine do yeoman's work.

Edited May 22, 2020 by Tallarn Commander

[Prot]

Well good news everybody! It was a very strong showing for the Zerkers. 

 

I wedged in two x 7 man teams with just a very basic Chainsword, and Axe combo. The Exalted Champ with Gorivex's  teeth was key. The game was against Necrons, and I did not go first I was pretty sure after turn 1 I was going to lose, because I failed to kill anything in my turn 1.

 

The Termies and Oblits dropping with Abe as one of the Rhino's emptied out of Zerkers... it made for a very tough decision for my opponent.

 

Basically I felt like I was doing very little, then all the sudden in Turn 3 he takes massive casualties and couldn't come back. In his defense he did not take his usual large squad of Destroyers, and I got off a key Death Hex on his 6 man Wraith squad!

 

 

I'm not sure what to try next. I think it might be Tau or Dark Eldar tonight... I can't play too lightly against those guys. I did enjoy  the Zerkers, and while the Possesed may do more, last longer, they do require an amazing amount of support from characters, aura's and powers. 

[battle captain corpus]

Glad the Zerkers worked out bud! They are far more independent than possessed for sure!

 

BCC

[Prot]

Thanks BCC.

Well I tried to change it up. This week my opponent was Tau, however we had discussed how I guess I was getting tired of facing all these tau riptide lists, or stormsurge lists, and good on my opponent for trying something different with lots of suits, even Longstrike, and some things I hadn't seen before.

That being said it's important to note that I did not face top tier Tau in this one.

Anyway the game last night had me pulling out 20 Possessed. I made a detachment of Flawless Host with 20 Possessed, 2 Greater Possessed, and the other detachment was a shooty Black Legion Battalion. This was unusual for me, but it worked... kind of.

I got turn 1, which was HUUUGE. Equally as big in the game I got ALL of my psychic buffs off, and Litany. So turn 1 had the squad front line deployed, and they Advanced + Warp time, advanced again. The total first turn move was 24".

At the end of that massive move, I was right in my opponent's zone. The Possessed were right in a ruin, and the Possessed was also -1 to hit, had Delightful Agonies, and Cursed Earth in effect.

As you can see that set up a first turn that may have got me zero kills, but my opponent was pretty terrified of this 20 man terror squad.

Here is a shot of T2:

Reserves came in, and Abaddon is in the mix.

This was a route.. over kill if anything. I've learned to try to take those Marker lights out, but I over did here. I had to shoot this building until there were fish falling out the windows!

On the opposite side is where I had my Possessed / Flawless Host running through a building and it did prevent the Tau from trying to divert or 'escape' on the other flank by putting Abaddon and the Oblits there.

- My opponent shot tons... I mean TONS of stuff into the possessed. I lost 6 of them with my defensive buffs, and a Rhino from elsewhere on the table.

- This set up a turn two charge that was.... just crazy. Because somehow once again I got off every buff, and even so it was kind of ugly. I send in a 5 man Marine squad to take overwatch because they are utterly useless to me in any other capacity.... all 5 die easily to overwatch... I was hoping just 1 would live!!!

So the remaining Possessed do their charge, and I lose 6 wounds, 3 models even with the buffs. So in total by charging I got lost 11 wounds. But that turned into a T3 charge with only 5 possessed, and at the end I had 3 possessed, and my Daemon Prince die.

This was near the charge phase of my T2:

- As you can see he's pretty trapped here... it just kept going until he was cornered and that pretty much was it... T1 was really where it was won.

[WarriorFish]

Turn 1 usually makes a big difference to the game, but it's not often it's winning them. Goes to show what can be done when things line up :) Always great seeing your models on the table and hearing how they do, all the more so for cleaning out some degenerate xenos :lol: How did your other units do, like the Oblits and Havocs?

[Prot]

Thanks. 

 

I'd say (unfortunately) the way this list is written it wins or loses T1. I don't -have- to go first, but one bad psychic phase and it's over. I saw that in T4 when I failed every power except 1, and wasn't in range for the -1 litany on the possessed...

 

As far as the Havocs/Oblits , it's such a tough question to answer because I think they would have been far more potent if I would have deployed/deep striked on the right side of the board with the Possessed/DP in front. I would have had a better angle with my limited range.

 

However, after I considered that and my experience playing Tau tells me you get one shot at hitting hard in CC, then they just screw off on you and you're toast. So that forced my decision to be less aggressive with Abe and all the shooting. Sure enough it worked because he chose option 3 which was retreat into a corner, and that's when he truly lost game by being cut off from 90% of the board. If he moved (retreated) away towards Abe / Shooty stuff, I would have had a hey day ripping into him. 

 

It was super costly getting that second assault off (The first assault only took down 5 firewarriors, 3 Stealth Suits, 1 Ghost Kheel. But I had to 'tap' those large battle suits (can't remember the name) because they can't move/shoot. 

 

Those games are always such a crazy grind. 

 

+++++++++++++++

 

I'd say I both of my lists were middle of the road competitively speaking. (The Tau army here was as well.) I'd say I slightly preferred the Khorne Zerker list because it is largely autonomous compared to the 20 possessed. I tried breaking possessed up into 2 x 10 (for rhino's like the my Zerker list) but I don't recommend it. They become far less effective once you're trying to buff them.

 

Either way I don't think either list quite suits me. Something about the Disco Lords just absolutely terrorizes people, even if they kind of flail wildly at a low level object. (I can't wait for 9th edition where apparently you can't hide on a stair case to avoid assault from units like Discos/etc.)

 

I still like the possessed but the Venomcrawlers just look fantastic to me. They really need to help those units (I put my 2 Defilers away for good) and Mauler units (Maulerfiends especially).

 

So there you have it... that's 3 very distinct, hyper aggressive Black Legion based assault lists. The only unit I gave up on was the 2 Heldrakes I have which should fit into Disco lists but don't really do anything for me.

 

Knights might be list #4.