Tempestus HSVG vs Plasma Math

[jaxom]

I want to crank through some math about two hotshot volleyguns versus two plasma guns. I know we've got rapid fire/no rapid fire and overcharge/no overcharge. What are some other conditions folks would like to see for comparison purposes?

[HallofStovokor]

Minus to hit modifiers would make sense.

[WarriorFish]

Yes, on an army that usually wants to be moving the Heavy weapon profile is a consideration but it would be good to also factor in Regimental Traits that alter the results

[jaxom]

I went through and identified that it's basically possible to always have some combination of +1 to hit, re-roll 1s to hit, and re-roll 1s to wound.

 

Here's what I'm working up for comparing the shooting of two HSVGs versus two plasma guns dropping/disembarking within 12".:

 

1) Tempestus Drop Force: Storm Troopers Regimental Doctrine, Warlord Trait - Grav-Chute Commando, Relic - Laurels of Command, Bring It Down!, Bring It Down! and Take Aim! (LoC). 

 

2) Lambdan Lions: Prized Weaponry Regimental Doctrine. The question arises with the Lions is whether one would take Master of Command and Laurels of Command (to buff up to three units with one or two orders each) or Keys to the Armoury and Laurels of Command (to guarantee the re-roll 1s to hit and then buff up to two units with one or two orders each). I'm leaning toward the latter because it could lead to two units with re-rolling 1s to hit, Bring It Down!, and First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! (an important consideration if we expand the perspective to a full squad of ten with four special weapons and five HSLGs).

 

3) Thetoid Eagles: Predatory Strike Regimental Doctrine. I think I need to do two sets: one with Warlord Trait - Uncompromising Persecution and Laurels of Command; and another with Master of Command and Laurels of Command. I'm curious to see how much impact Uncompromising Persecution has. The orders will be Bring It Down! and then Bring It Down! and Take Aim! (LoC). 

 

4) Kappic Eagles: Mobilized Infantry Regimental Doctrine, Warlord Trait - Master of Command, Relic - Laurels of Command. Disembarking, of course. Bring It Down!, Bring It Down! and Take Aim! (LoC). 

 

Then I want to play around with Point-Blank Efficiency and Kill Zone 

[KGatch113]

Can't wait to see your results.

I ran a basic 16 shots of HSLG vs 8 Plasmaguns Overcharging....

The Hot shots are obviously better at killing GEQ, both kill about the same Marines, but plasma has an obvious advantage against higher Toughness models. 

The key is....number shots/lower strength vs higher strength/fewer shots. Can the number of shots paper cut a vehicle to death? Or is it better to go with the higher strength. 

I don't think you can get enough shots with HSLG to equal plasma, but maybe your analysis will show some different results. 

I think another big key is the fact that you get the -1 for moving, which means HSLG are best used on a static force.

[GrinNfool]

Eh not sure a spreadsheet is needed really because I would assume it should be pretty obvious with a quick check I just did, but guess it might be interesting to see if there are any unexpected break points.  HSVG should be better vs GEQ (#of shots) almost as good vs MEQ (counting over charge) assuming you are kappic, and worse vs primaris or anything t5 and over.  Basically if you are running kappic HSVG are a reasonable alternative to plasma assuming not vs primaris, or t5+.  If you aren't running kappic then HSVG are only worth while vs horde or due to points.

 

The only factor I could see skewing this would be the strategems, Point Black Efficacy, and Killing Zone, which would almost assuredly skew everything in favor of HSVG if you are Kappic, but not sure about other regiments.  That is of course conditional and 2 cp.  Overall though kappic are the only ones that can really make use of the HSVG, outside of GEQ killing.  Plasma just tends to be the "safer" bet, assuming you are able to give them all orders to reroll 1.  If you want to tote the HSVGs around go kappic, they are good at it, been having quite a bit of success with them honestly, but I tend to run 2 battallions one as dragons for my Deepstriking plasma and 1 as kappic to ride in transports and use the HSVGs.

Edited May 13, 2020 by GrinNfool

[jaxom]

Grav-Chute Commando, Storm Troopers, and Bring It Down!

 

I decided to look at the data as the ratio of damage from 2 HSVGs versus 2 plasma guns at less than 12" after moving (dropping in or disembarking). The variations I looked at for targets were T3-T8, 1W-3W, and 5+ or 3+ save. I could then compare it to the ratio of points spent. This gives an idea of the points efficiency of one or the other. For 2W and 3W I didn't bother with the non-overcharged plasma.

 

1W, 5+ Save

• HSVG is the best option against T3, T4, and T7. The overcharged plasma has a slight advantage over HSVG at T4 and T7, but the points efficiency is not good there (especially at T4).
• T5 and T6 points efficiency favors the HSVG; it's not the best option, but it's a better option for the points you're paying compared to plasma or overcharged plasma.
• Overcharged plasma the best against T8 by a large margin; it's the only plasma option that has positive points efficiency.

1W, 3+ Save

• HSVG is still the best option against T3 and T4.
• Overcharging plasma only matters against T4, T7, and T8. It's significantly better against T7 and T8 targets.

2W, 5+ Save

• Overcharged plasma is the clear winner and has the points efficiency to back it up.

2W, 3+ Save

• Overcharged plasma is the clear winner and has the points efficiency to back it up, even more so than against a 5+ save.

3W, 5+ Save

• If there's a T3 3W 5+ unit that exists, it's the only one where the overcharged plasma is not points efficient.
• Overcharged plasma is less points efficient here compared to 2W targets, but still points efficient.

3W, 3+ Save

• Same relationship to 3W, 5+ save as 2W, 3+ compared to 2W, 5+ save.

TL;DR: HSVG is the best option against T3-T6 1W 5+ save targets, and against T3 and T4 1W 3+ save targets. If there's a weird 1W T7 or T8 target out there, overcharge plasma it up. Overcharged plasma is hands down best against multiwound targets.

 

I'm not sure it's a surprise, but the rate of fire issue does make the HSVGs better against firstborn marines even with the penalty to moving. I did think the points efficiency issue at T5/T6 1W was interesting. Off the top of my head, however, I can't think of a T5/T6 unit that only has 1 wound.

 

This gives a baseline to compare the other Regiments against. I do need to also consider Point-Blank Efficiency for when I look at the more HS focused regiments.

Edited May 13, 2020 by jaxom

[Plague _Lord]

Plague Marines and CSM Havocs have T5 and 1 wound.

Anyway this comparison is a bit meh since the volleygun surely outperforms plasma at over 18'' (you can move and shoot plasma without penalty). The weapons have totally different roles and should be lookad at in such a manner - HVG is for an objective camper squad that doesn't want to move too much, plasma is for dropping in and taking out heavy infantry and light tanks, while possibly helping in taking out some heavy armour.

[jaxom]

I'll add over 18" to the scenario list, but the suggestions from earlier seemed focused on alpha strike use.

 

Grav-Chute Commando, Storm Troopers, and Elimination Protocols Sanctioned

• ​​HSVGs are best option against 1W targets except T8 3+ save.
• HSVG is better against T3 3W 3+ save targets (not that there are any Monstrous or Tank units which fill that niche) compared to overcharged plasma; otherwise, overcharged plasma still the best option against multiwound models.

Grav-Chute Commando, Storm Troopers, and Bring It Down! plus Point-Blank Efficiency

• Exacerbates that HSVGs are better against T4-T6 1W targets (especially against T4).
• Plasma is still better at taking down multiwound targets.

Keys to the Armoury, Prized Weaponry, Bring It Down!

• HSVGs are only better against T3 and T4 1W targets of both the 5+ and 3+ save varieties (technically T7 and T8, too, but there's no such units with 1W).
• Plasma is now worth it against T5-T6 1W 3+ save targets.
• Not as good as Grav-Chute Commando, Storm Troopers, and BID! (one less casualty) against PEQ.

Next up: Lambdan Lions with max squads (for efficient CP use) with Point-Blank Efficiency and/or Gifts of the Mechanicus.