Getting back into BT - 1000pts

[Brother Kraskor]

Honoured brothers,

 

Long-time 40k player, been on a long hiatus. Primarchs waking up, Cadia finally fell - seems legit, happy to adjust.

 

Primaris seems to be the way the wind is blowing so here is a stab at a list to build towards, just using online content and the datasheets as a guide - don't actually possess the codex yet or anything like that!

 

 

Black Templars Battalion (Battleforged) - 8CP - 57PL - 999pts

 

 

-HQ-

 

 

Castellan in Phobos Armour - 75pts

- Warlord

- The Honour Vehement (+1A 6" aura)

- Frontline Commander (+1 to Advance/Charge 6" aura)

- Occulus Bolt Carbine & Paired Blades (to keep Grav Chute)

 

Chaplain Grimaldus - 90pts

- Litany of Divine Protection, Fires of Devotion

 

The Emperor's Champion - 75pts

 

 

-TROOPS-

 

 

10 Intercessors - 180pts

- Auto Bolt Rifles

 

5 Intercessors - 85pts

- Stalker Bolt Rifles

 

5 Intercessors - 85pts

- Stalker Bolt Rifles

 

 

-ELITES-

 

 

Invictor Tactical Warsuit - 131pts

- Incendium Cannon

 

10 Reivers

- Combat Knives

- Grav Chutes

 

 

-HEAVY SUPPORT-

 

 

3 Eliminators

- 2 Las Fusils

- Sgt Instigator Bolt Carbine

 

 

 

General Plan

 

I like to think of the list as having three components, working from the back:

 

Backlines:

 

-The two 5-man Intercessor squads, holding objectives and making use of their 36" boltguns (and enjoying Devastator doctrine).

 

Midrange:

 

- The big Intercessor squad will be hoofing it up the board with the Emperor's Champion and Grimaldus. Looking to eventually get into combat to support the frontline but plenty of dakka along the way. Grimaldus can provide two of 5+++, re-roll hits in melee, or +1A on the charge, and always makes 6s to hit cause an extra hit in melee. Emperor's Champion can curbstomp the enemy Warlord.

 

- The Eliminators will be placed so as to be able to dominate the battlefield and take out vehicles. The Intercessors will not be far behind for any unit foolish enough to try and charge the Eliminators, who will make use of Covering Fire and leave the would-be assaulter high and dry (to the sound of ten approaching Auto boltguns...!)

 

Frontlines:

 

- Castellan & Reivers will deploy together, spending CP if necessary to ensure a turn-1 charge for both. The chances of this should be reasonably high with the +1 to Charge from Warlord Trait and BT special rule allowing re-roll of one or both charge dice. They will have four attacks each (knives + Relic), re-rolling 1s to wound (Castellan) so should be tasty. Ideally wiping out their first target and consolidating into a second target, which they hold down with the Tenacious Assault stratagem on a 2+ - enemy gunline serious hampered early doors. Target selection will be crucial!

 

- Invictor Warsuit not quite as aggressive as the Reivers, but stood by to get stuck in should the need arise and generally giving the opponent something extra to think about.

 

 

 

What do you think? Terrible or not so bad? Heresy for no Crusader squads (correct answer is yes)?

 

Cheers!

Edited May 14, 2020 by Brother Kraskor

[ThirtySixNights]

It's good. Would love to see a little melee anti tank!

 

Yes, it's terribly unfluffy for not having crusader squads! But you've got the two best characters so, can't hate it too much.

 

The only thing I'd change without question is the honour vehement. It's possible you misread the relic. Try the Aurillian Shroud, or maybe Witchseeker bolts if the enemy is right!

[Brother Kraskor]

It's good. Would love to see a little melee anti tank!

 

Yes, it's terribly unfluffy for not having crusader squads! But you've got the two best characters so, can't hate it too much.

 

The only thing I'd change without question is the honour vehement. It's possible you misread the relic. Try the Aurillian Shroud, or maybe Witchseeker bolts if the enemy is right!

 

Thanks for the reply! I guess my RL reason for the heresy is GW is bound to scrap them eventually, and if I'm starting modelling afresh might as well future-proof it... heresy I know!!!

 

Yes anti-tank is my biggest worry with them as things stand. I guess the Warsuit could get stuck in? Is it better to keep him at range or can he happily go after tanks in melee?

 

RE: the relic - I've been going off what it says on games-workshop so this could well be wrong! But for me it reads:

 

Friendly <CHAPTER> units are treated as not having the Shock Assault ability whilst they are within 6" of a model from your army with this Relic. Instead, add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of models in friendly <CHAPTER> units whilst their unit is within 6" of a model from your army with this Relic.

 

Does this not mean the Reivers would gain an attack (every round instead of just on the charge)? I did like the look of the Aurillian Shroud, but it activates at the start of the battle-round and the Lieutenant won't be deployed until the end of the Movement phase, so it would be turn 2 at the earliest - still no bad thing, but better than an extra attack?

[ThirtySixNights]

An extra attack just isn't great in ongoing combats. they rarely happen, and if they do, usually an extra attack isn't a big consideration.

[Brother Kraskor]

An extra attack just isn't great in ongoing combats. they rarely happen, and if they do, usually an extra attack isn't a big consideration.

 

Ah ok, so I want to be wiping units out and keeping the charges up then? Sounds sensible and frees up the relic choice.

[ThirtySixNights]

Getting the charge does synergise better with our superdoctrine since that only works on the charge.

 

A perfect situation is that you wipe out a unit either entirely, or leave it with only a tiny amount alive so you can then kill them in their turn and be able to freely charge in yours.

 

What I find most often happens is you only get one good chance to eliminate a really serious and important threat using close combat.

 

Enemies move away quickly, or they fall back quickly if you don't eliminate them. Yes we have one expensive strategem to help, but if you didn't kill them on the charge, 1+ attack probably isn't going to help, especially when you'll be fighting last this turn.

 

What happens after that unit destroys their intended target, generally doesn't matter.

 

And furthermore, if you do want to make combat in the enemies turn more effective, likely a fight first mechanic should be employed as in any effective close combat unit, losing even one or two models could be just as much or more than a single attack for each.

[Brother Kraskor]

Getting the charge does synergise better with our superdoctrine since that only works on the charge.

 

A perfect situation is that you wipe out a unit either entirely, or leave it with only a tiny amount alive so you can then kill them in their turn and be able to freely charge in yours.

 

What I find most often happens is you only get one good chance to eliminate a really serious and important threat using close combat.

 

Enemies move away quickly, or they fall back quickly if you don't eliminate them. Yes we have one expensive strategem to help, but if you didn't kill them on the charge, 1+ attack probably isn't going to help, especially when you'll be fighting last this turn.

 

What happens after that unit destroys their intended target, generally doesn't matter.

 

And furthermore, if you do want to make combat in the enemies turn more effective, likely a fight first mechanic should be employed as in any effective close combat unit, losing even one or two models could be just as much or more than a single attack for each.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain! Have BT got any fight first mechanics that spring to mind?

[Hymnblade]

In matched play, deep striking units can't come in until turn 2. If you want a turn 1 charge, a Phobos Captain with the Crusader Helm buffing a big unit of Incursors does pretty well. With exploding 6s from the knives, they get almost as many hits as Reivers with a bonus attack, with some AP thanks to the Helm, plus they have actual guns.

 

For the Intercessors pushing up the board, a power fist or thunder hammer on the sergeant is probably a good choice. Aggressors would also be good at accompanying them.

 

The Honor Vehement is actually kind of a letdown. Long drag-out combats are relatively rare in 8e since anything that can't quickly beat you can just fall back, and Shock Assault applies when you get charged in addition to when you charge, so it's not as beneficial as it looks from the perspective of earlier editions.

[ThirtySixNights]

And to add to what Hymnblade said, first fight mechanics fall into the same setting.

 

Kill your opponents, kill them hard and good on the first charge.

[Brother Kraskor]

Ah I didn't read Shock Assault properly, nor the rules on Deep Strike it would seem! 

 

So Reivers not recommended I guess unless I am prepared to wait a turn. Incursors and a Captain could achieve the Turn 1 charge, and also make use of the Crusader's Helm, whereas deep strikers can't until turn 3 which is too late anyway.

 

I must now fight the internal battle between fluff and game capability, my thanks brothers.

[Medjugorje]

 

Getting the charge does synergise better with our superdoctrine since that only works on the charge.

 

A perfect situation is that you wipe out a unit either entirely, or leave it with only a tiny amount alive so you can then kill them in their turn and be able to freely charge in yours.

 

What I find most often happens is you only get one good chance to eliminate a really serious and important threat using close combat.

 

Enemies move away quickly, or they fall back quickly if you don't eliminate them. Yes we have one expensive strategem to help, but if you didn't kill them on the charge, 1+ attack probably isn't going to help, especially when you'll be fighting last this turn.

 

What happens after that unit destroys their intended target, generally doesn't matter.

 

And furthermore, if you do want to make combat in the enemies turn more effective, likely a fight first mechanic should be employed as in any effective close combat unit, losing even one or two models could be just as much or more than a single attack for each.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain! Have BT got any fight first mechanics that spring to mind?

 

yes - they have a few of them. Thats why I hate GW so much because this mechanic is useless in this edition if the enemy charged first.

 

in my mind the honor vehement is a good choice because our stratagem "devot push" where you can get into close combat without a charge (and so loose the +1 attack)

 

and with a drop pod you can deepstrike on first round. But thats not a option for primaris.

 

And by the way,... Helbrecht is the best Black Templar unit by far.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Medjugorje

[Brother Kraskor]

Have decided to take the list in a bit of a different direction after some reading. Reivers don't seem to pack the punch I was hoping for - let's see if the alternative is any good...!

 

 

So the new 1000pts list, for your insight brothers:

 

 

Black Templars Battalion - 998pts - 7CP

 

+3CP (Battleforged)

+5CP (Detachment)

-1CP (Relics of the Chapter)

 

 

Captain in Cataphractii Armour - 108pts

- Warlord

- Frontline Commander (1+ to Charge/Advance)

- Power Sword - Sword of Judgement

- Power Fist

 

Chaplain Grimaldus - 90pts

- Litany of Divine Protection, Fires of Devotion, Litany of Hate

 

Primaris Lieutenant - 70pts

- Master-crafted Stalker Bolt Rifle - Witchseeker Bolts

 

 

5 Intercessors - 106pts

- Auto Bolt Rifles

- Sergeant w/ Thunder Hammer

 

5 Intercessors - 106pts

- Auto Bolt Rifles

- Sergeant w/ Thunder Hammer

 

5 Intercessors - 85pts

- Stalker Bolt Rifles

 

 

5 Cataphractii Terminator - 173pts

- Sergeant w/ Power Fist, Combi-Bolter, and Grenade Harness

- 4x Terminators w/ Lightning Claw and Combi-Bolter

 

Redemptor Dreadnought - 162pts

- Macro Plasma Incinerator

- 2x Storm Bolters, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Icarus Rocket Pod

 

 

3 Eliminators - 98pts

- Sergeant w/ Instigator Bolt Carbine

- 2x Las Fusils

 

 

 

 

Scheme of Manoeuver

 

Backline: Stalker Intercessors and Lieutenant, and potentially Eliminators depending on terrain. Lieutenant will enjoy murdering Psykers while giving a boost to the Intercessors.

 

Midfield: Both Auto Intercessors and Grimaldus by footslogging, and potentially Eliminators via forward deployment depending on terrain. The footsloggers will advance to aggressively seize the centre ground, with a view to closing the enemy and engaging in combat after softening up with plenty of shooting. Grimaldus providing buffs and Denying enemy Psykers. 

 

Forward: Enter the Sword Brethren! Cataphractii! Perhaps controversial! However, they will be pumping out a respectable 20 bolt shots at 24" and so can happily contribute to the shooting game in-between combats. In combat they will shine, re-rolling wounds and hits of 1 (maybe worth Chapter Master upgrade for re-rolling all hits and wounds?). The Sergeant and Captain both have Power Fists as insurance against anything heavy. Frontline Commander means they should all get the charge off from deep strike.

 

Floating: Redemptor Dreadnought will not be pre-assigned a role and respond to enemy threats/vulnerabilities as required. If I expect heavy deep-striking assault he will babysit the Stalkers - if I expect to need a dreadnought close combat weapon in the midfield, then off he'll slog.

 

 

What do you think brothers? Could drop Grimaldus and the Redemptor for two Invictors, more aggressive and potentially more competitive what do you think?

[ThirtySixNights]

Looks good! Like any primaris heavy list it's always a shame that it could likely perform better with a different chapter tactic.

 

However you're justifying the choice well enough with a good range of unique relics.

 

It is a bit funny to have frontline commander on the terminator captain seeing as he'll have trouble getting to the frontline, and if you deepstrike him you'll miss out on his aura(s) for turn one.

 

Otherwise looks great!

[Medjugorje]

I think you dont need the sword on your warlord. It already have 2dmg...

[Brother Kraskor]

I think you dont need the sword on your warlord. It already have 2dmg...

 

I think you're thinking Gravis - he's in Cataphractii armour, so just a regular power sword. But yes even still I think he's probably better off taking relic blade and saving me 1CP on the extra relic...

[Brother Kraskor]

What with Nurgle's rot keeping us indoors, I've had a go at 1500pts:

 

 

Black Templars - 1497pts - 7CP

 

- Battleforged +3CP

- Battalion +5CP

- Spearhead +1CP

- Relics of the Chapter -1CP

- Hero of the Chapter -1CP

 

 

Captain in Cataphractii Armour - 108pts

- Warlord (Frontline Commander)

- Power fist, Power Sword (Sword of Judgement)

 

Captain in Phobos Armour - 99pts

- Relics of the Chapter (Witchseeker Bolts)

 

Chaplain Dreadnought - 143pts

- Heavy Plasma Cannon, Dreadnought CCW, Storm Bolter

- Litany of Divine Protection, Litany of Hate

- Hero of the Chapter (Epitome of Piety)

 

 

5 Intercessors - 99pts

- Auto Bolt Rifles

- Sergeant Power Fist

 

5 Intercessors - 99pts

- Auto Bolt Rifles

- Sergeant Power Fist

 

5 Scouts - 55pts

- Boltguns

 

 

5 Cataphractii Terminators - 173pts

- Sergeant: Power Fist, Combi-bolter, Grenade Harness

- 4x Terminators: Lightning Claw, Combi-bolter

 

 

3 Centurion Devastators - 210pts

- 3x Grav Cannon & Grav-amp, Hurricane Bolters

 

3 Eliminators - 98pts

- Sergeant: Instigator Bolt Carbine

- 2x Las Fusils

 

3 Eliminators - 98pts

- Sergeant: Instigator Bolt Carbine

- 2x Las Fusils

 

 

Stormraven Gunship - 315pts

- Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Heavy Bolter, two Hurricane Bolters, two Stormstrike Missile Launchers

 

 

 

 

Concept

 

Idea of this list is to put nasty threats deep into the enemy army from turn 2, supported by a combination of long-range and close-range fire support from the rest of the army.

 

 

Forward Assault

 

- Cataphractii and Captain will deep strike, aiming for a turn 2 charge where they will wreck T4, armoured opponents.

- Devastator Centurions and Chaplain Dreadnought will take the Stormraven. It will position so that turn 2 they can all drop out somewhere menacing. The Devastators will proceed to unload at leisure, screening the Dreadnought who cannot be targeted - if the opponent decides to charge them, the Dreadnought will Heroic Intervene and mess up their day. He will also be giving them 5+++ and Denying the Witch in the meantime!

- Once the Stormraven has dropped off its payload, it will fly around willy nilly shooting as it pleases - I don't expect it to last long, but ideally it can last at least one turn to drop off the Centurions & Dread.

 

Midfield Advance

 

- Both Intercessor squads will move up and take objectives/hold the midfield, they can get a hike on by advancing turn 1. Power fists make the opponent think twice about charging them.

 

Backfield Hold

 

- The Scouts will sit on an objective, if I had the points these would be Stalker Intercessors, anyway the Neophytes need to see how we do business anyway.

- 2x Eliminator squads with las Fusils and the Phobos Captain can either sit right back or be a little forward, in either case they will be laying down plenty of anti-tank. The Captain will be sniping psykers. Both units can pull the cheeky Covering Fire trick and escape if need be.

 

 

What do you think brothers? I suspect there will be a lot of shooting at the Stormraven, if worst comes to worst the Centurions and Dread will have to hoof it up the board - not a disaster by any means, but not quite as cruel as placing them somewhere inside the enemy system where they cannot be ignored.

[Medjugorje]

 

I think you dont need the sword on your warlord. It already have 2dmg...

 

I think you're thinking Gravis - he's in Cataphractii armour, so just a regular power sword. But yes even still I think he's probably better off taking relic blade and saving me 1CP on the extra relic...

 

now i see it. shame on me.

[Brother Kraskor]

 

 

I think you dont need the sword on your warlord. It already have 2dmg...

 

I think you're thinking Gravis - he's in Cataphractii armour, so just a regular power sword. But yes even still I think he's probably better off taking relic blade and saving me 1CP on the extra relic...

 

now i see it. shame on me.

 

 

There is no shame in bringing death to the Emperor's enemies brother!

[ThirtySixNights]

One damage can become two damage. If you chant for the Emperor's Blessings!!!

[Brother Kraskor]

Changing ideas as I go, and obviously new edition is coming so a lot likely to change. But just as a concept, I've had a go at 2000pts:

 

Black Templars 1995pts, 9CP (Battleforged, Battalion, Air Wing)

 

Gravis Captain - 108pts

- Warlord (Epitome of Piety)

- Aurillian Shroud

 

Chaplain Dreadnought - 143pts

- Heavy Plasma Cannon

- Dreadnought CCW (Storm Bolter)

- Litany of Divine Protection

 

 

5 Intercessors - 99pts

- Auto Bolt Rifles

- Power Fist

 

5 Intercessors - 99pts

- Auto Bolt Rifles

- Power Fist

 

5 Neophytes - 55pts

- Bolters

 

 

3 Aggressors - 111pts

- Boltstorm + Fragstorm

 

3 Assault Centurions - 156pts

- Flamers, Hurricane Bolters

 

 

Impulsor - 97pts

- Shield Dome

 

Impulsor - 97pts

- Shield Dome

 

Repulsor - 302pts

- Last-Talon

- Twin Heavy Bolter

- Onslaught Gatling Cannon

- 3x Storm Bolters

- Auto Launchers

 

 

Stormhawk Interceptor - 201pts

- Las-Talon, Typhoon Missile Launcher

- 2x Assault Cannon

 

Stormhawk Interceptor - 201pts

- Las-Talon, Typhoon Missile Launcher

- 2x Assault Cannon

 

Stormraven Gunship - 326pts

- Twin Lascannon

- 2x Hurricane Bolters

- Typhoon Missile Launcher

 

 

 

Concept

 

Provided the transports deliver, the elements of the list can function pretty independently. The idea is to move fast and saturate the opponent with high-priority targets.

 

Infantry Use

 

- Neophytes: Cheap objective holder, nothing more to add!

 

- 2x Intercessors Squads: Mounted in shielded Impulsors, these will likely stick together and make an aggressive move onto enemy objectives.

 

- Aggressors, Captain: Mounted in the Repulsor, straight into the middle to hold that ground. Aurillian Shroud will help them all stick around a bit longer.

 

- Centurions, Chaplain Dread: Mounted in the Stormraven, this nasty payload will be used hyper-aggressively. Turn 2 they should be charging, and from Turn 3 the Dread will be putting 5+++ on them. 

 

Vehicle Use

 

- The two Stormhawks will just fly in big circles and hunt tanks and enemy flyers. The Assault Cannon should be sufficient for flyers (and thereafter, hordes), allowing the Las-Talons and Typhoon Missile Launchers to focus on enemy armour.

 

- The Stormraven will join in the tank-hunting/horde clearance once it's dropped off its payload.

 

- The Repulsor will stay midfield and unload all its dakka for as long as it can once it's dropped off its payload.

 

- The Impulsors will get up to as much mischief as possible, tagging enemy armour/heavy weapons.

 

 

Any thoughts brothers? As I say I know a lot is due to change, but this will help me focus my collecting in any case!

Edited June 5, 2020 by Brother Kraskor

[Medjugorje]

I dont think this list will work. You dont have standing power here. I mean its not even 30 models summary. Maybe it will work in 9th edition but not yet (but thats just my opinion - maybe I am not correct) - 4++ in the start will help a lot.

[Brother Kraskor]

I dont think this list will work. You dont have standing power here. I mean its not even 30 models summary. Maybe it will work in 9th edition but not yet (but thats just my opinion - maybe I am not correct) - 4++ in the start will help a lot.

 

Yes I think you're right, have been thinking it all over a bit since I posted that.