Contemptor Dreadnoughts

[GenerationTerrorist]

Hi all.

Bit of a fluff/background question, really.

 

What is the reason that Grey Knights have no Contemptor Dreadnoughts?

 

I think they would be a perfectly flavourful addition to any future Codex. I love the model and think that, point for point, they are the best non-FW Marine Dreadnoughts on the table top. Especially if they became a Psyker.

 

Custodes have them, so why not Grey Knights?

[Shagah]

No reason that I know of.

 

It is typical of the fluff not flowing to the table top though, GK are supposed to have access to all the best stuff in the Imperium... except they don't, even to the point of actually having Deimos as its own private forge world and they cannot even have access to Deimos pattern equipment (personal gripe.. as it is not even op!)!

[Seizeman]

Contemptor dreadnoughts are pre-heresy technology, no new contemptors have been created since, only conserved or recovered. Grey knights were founded during the heresy, and they used new technology exclusive to them. Remember GK dreadnoughts are psychics, so they require a specific dreadnought build.

 

But really, grey knight vehicles are already generic enough to add more space marine generic stuff.

[Skywrath]

Because fluff wise, everything (well nearly everything) that the GK have is psychically imbued. The contemptors aren't imbued with psychic support hence they don't make use of them. If you look at our current dreadnoughts - the vortimer and regular dreadnought, both of them have a way to express psychic ability. Which in the case of the vortimer is the psi-weapon on top of the psyker's ability. However, in the GK Primaris thread, I did mention the possibility of a librarian dreadnought being available to us in a future release (with the whole psychic shenanigans happening), so it's possible there might be a relic contemptor librarian dreadnought available for us. Realistically speaking, we probably did have the technology back then, as even with the founding of the GK, they would have had the best equipment available - that includes the contemptors. 

[Iron Lord]

Contemptor dreadnoughts are pre-heresy technology, no new contemptors have been created since, only conserved or recovered. 

 

 

It's  a little unclear when the secrets of building Contemptors were lost - the Angels of Death supplement from 7e said "secrets of building them were lost sometime after the Heresy" - so a few very early post-heresy Contemptors might possibly exist.

 

The 8e 2e SM codex said the secrets were lost "during the Horus Heresy and the strife that followed"

 

And from 7e's War Machines of the Adeptus Astartes:

 

"Those few Contemptors that remain in the service of the Adeptus Astartes are invariably relics of the Great Crusade or of the Horus Heresy and the Scouring. Few if any are known to have been constructed since,  their secrets lost and their legend tainted by association with the dread automata of the Cybernetica."

 

 

The Minotaurs fielding 10 Contemptors despite being a late-founding Chapter is considered remarkable (Fall of Orpheus), and may be a hint that the secrets are not completely lost, and that theirs are newer.

[Skywrath]

A point to bring up above is to interpret that statement: ""secrets of building them were lost sometime after the Heresy". There is a line of thought that if the contemptors were lost to the Space Marines, it doesn't mean it was lost to us, Grey Knights. Pretty sure we have current examples of technology that were considered lost a while ago, but we still use them to this day. 

[Iron Lord]

True. And conversely, when some lost STC tech has been found again, and put into production, the Grey Knights tend to get the first ones off the line - Stormravens, at least, are supposed to be  an example of this, with the Grey Knights (and the Blood Angels, and the Deathwatch in FFG material) getting them before the regular Space Marines did.

[Skywrath]

On a somewhat unrelated note, I recall reading about how our gene-seed implantation process is also much more refined. Which by extension applies to our dreadnoughts, as to sustain a Grey Knight indefinitely, it would be the same as creating one, with a few small tweaks.  I wonder if we use any psychic shenanigans in the creation of said aspirants. 

 

And yes, despite me having a GK apothecary as my avatar, I wouldn't know the secrets ;p

[Iron Lord]

On a somewhat unrelated note, I recall reading about how our gene-seed implantation process is also much more refined. Which by extension applies to our dreadnoughts, as to sustain a Grey Knight indefinitely, 

 

And yes, despite me having a GK apothecary as my avatar, I wouldn't know the secrets ;p

 

 

 

The most advanced bio-engineering and psycho-surgery available is utilised to condition these Aspirants, and each recruit must pass the six hundred and sixty six Rituals of Detestation, to prove that he is capable of withstanding horrors that would break even the greatest of normal Space Marines. Upon success, the recruit also has all memory of his prior existence and identity erased using a mind-wipe, to better ensure his absolute and unwavering loyalty to the Emperor, and to prevent daemons from using the Aspirant's fears, memories, and feelings against him. One of the main criteria for selection into the Chapter is that the recruit must show great psychic potential, as the entire Chapter is made up of psykers. Once they begin to undergo the standard gene-seed organ implantation process to transform an Aspirant into an Astartes of the Grey Knights, the new Grey Knight is also implanted with silver hexagrammic and pentagrammic Purity Wards under his skin which cover his entire body and help to prevent daemonic entities from touching or contaminating him.

[Skywrath]

Yes I get that, but I wonder if there is anything about psychically imbuing them further. Similar to the soul-bonding process with the astropaths.

[Iron Lord]

Yes I get that, but I wonder if there is anything about psychically imbuing them further. Similar to the soul-bonding process with the astropaths.

 

 

I think there's supposed to be rumours that Grey Knights undergo the Soul Binding (and somehow don't get their eyes burned out)

 

 It is whispered that these peerless warrior mystics endure the agonies of the Emperor's soul-binding as part of their final initiation. If such stories are true, their willpower and stoicism must be far beyond that of even the most dedicated servants of the Imperium.

 

 

(this being on the GK Terminator box)

 

 

but I don't know if these rumours are intended to be true. It may just be a case of training and geneseed with a closer tie to the Emperor than Space Marine geneseed.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Brother Lunkhead]

True. And conversely, when some lost STC tech has been found again, and put into production, the Grey Knights tend to get the first ones off the line - Stormravens, at least, are supposed to be  an example of this, with the Grey Knights (and the Blood Angels, and the Deathwatch in FFG material) getting them before the regular Space Marines did.

 

As we've not seen Contemptors among the GK thus far more likely than not, they don't have them (not impossible, just not likely). When GW reintroduced the Contemptor into the 40Kverse, you'd think they would have found a way to give them to the GK's if they wanted them to have them. Another point to consider is that the psychological stress placed on SM's interred in Contemptors tends to burn them out. Even with the enhanced abilities of the GK's this might still be a factor. So, even if available, the GK's might see that the negatives outweigh the positives when it comes to utilizing the Contemptor.

 

 

On a somewhat unrelated note, I recall reading about how our gene-seed implantation process is also much more refined. Which by extension applies to our dreadnoughts, as to sustain a Grey Knight indefinitely, it would be the same as creating one, with a few small tweaks.  I wonder if we use any psychic shenanigans in the creation of said aspirants. 

 

And yes, despite me having a GK apothecary as my avatar, I wouldn't know the secrets ;p

 

Are you referring to organ transplantation and general advanced surgical techniques as applied to dreadnought internment? Otherwise I'm not clear on how gene-implantation applies to dreadnoughts.

 

 

 

On a somewhat unrelated note, I recall reading about how our gene-seed implantation process is also much more refined. Which by extension applies to our dreadnoughts, as to sustain a Grey Knight indefinitely, 

 

And yes, despite me having a GK apothecary as my avatar, I wouldn't know the secrets ;p

 

 

 

The most advanced bio-engineering and psycho-surgery available is utilised to condition these Aspirants, and each recruit must pass the six hundred and sixty six Rituals of Detestation, to prove that he is capable of withstanding horrors that would break even the greatest of normal Space Marines. Upon success, the recruit also has all memory of his prior existence and identity erased using a mind-wipe, to better ensure his absolute and unwavering loyalty to the Emperor, and to prevent daemons from using the Aspirant's fears, memories, and feelings against him. One of the main criteria for selection into the Chapter is that the recruit must show great psychic potential, as the entire Chapter is made up of psykers. Once they begin to undergo the standard gene-seed organ implantation process to transform an Aspirant into an Astartes of the Grey Knights, the new Grey Knight is also implanted with silver hexagrammic and pentagrammic Purity Wards under his skin which cover his entire body and help to prevent daemonic entities from touching or contaminating him.

 

 

….and it's here where I think we're getting a wee bit off topic

[Skywrath]

Are you referring to organ transplantation and general advanced surgical techniques as applied to dreadnought internment? Otherwise I'm not clear on how gene-implantation applies to dreadnoughts.

 

I am referring to the surgical techniques. It just seems to me that the same technologies used in creating an astartes (especially that of a GK), is at least partially used in sustaining a wounded astartes. What makes this theory even more plausible, is that psychic shenanigans could be applied to offer a higher quality of preservation than normal marines. I would want to draw a link to the golden throne and how it sustains the emperor to the same technologies being used in a GK dreadnought, but I got no hard facts to back that up. And before someone brings up the fact that people are sacrificed daily to keep the emperor alive, some say the technology of psi-weaponry is a similar concept, and while the soul of the GK is powerful enough, it's not as strong as the emperors. So perhaps instead of "paying in installments" like the Emperor does, the GK dreadnought is "paying outright" by sacrificing a X amount of psykers once, instead of over time. 

 

@Iron Lord, good to see my suspicion has been more or less confirmed. Also the reason I suspect their eyes aren't burnt out is because their geneseed comes from the Emperor himself. Think of it as a toxin - if you got affected by your own toxin, it wouldn't hurt you. So by that extension, being subjected to the soul-bonding with the emperor wouldn't hurt them. In fact, maybe that's what "unlocks" the GK geneseed similar to the Blood Angels, if it needed to be so? Just a thought.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Skywrath

[Iron Lord]

 

 

As we've not seen Contemptors among the GK thus far more likely than not, they don't have them (not impossible, just not likely). When GW reintroduced the Contemptor into the 40Kverse, you'd think they would have found a way to give them to the GK's if they wanted them to have them. Another point to consider is that the psychological stress placed on SM's interred in Contemptors tends to burn them out.

 

 

I've never read that about Contemptors. There's references to Contemptors whose inhabitants fought in the Great Crusade -  which implies that there's no burnout problem.

 

It's Leviathans (and the new Redemptors) that are suggested as burning out the inhabitant.

 

The Thousand Sons did build their own Contemptor variant, the Osiron, specifically for psykers:

 

https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Osiron_Pattern_Contemptor_Dreadnought

 

so  we know that it's possible to have a "psyker-compatible Contemptor"  If the schematics (which Magnus made publicly available) got to Deimos, and the Grey Knights took the "the technology is not heretical even if Magnus was" attitude, I could see the early post-Heresy Grey Knights building them.

 

 

 

@Iron Lord, good to see my suspicion has been more or less confirmed. Also the reason I suspect their eyes aren't burnt out is because their geneseed comes from the Emperor himself. Think of it as a toxin - if you got affected by your own toxin, it wouldn't hurt you. So by that extension, being subjected to the soul-bonding with the emperor wouldn't hurt them. In fact, maybe that's what "unlocks" the GK geneseed similar to the Blood Angels, if it needed to be so? Just a thought.

 

 

Maybe. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

Are you referring to organ transplantation and general advanced surgical techniques as applied to dreadnought internment? Otherwise I'm not clear on how gene-implantation applies to dreadnoughts.

 

I am referring to the surgical techniques. It just seems to me that the same technologies used in creating an astartes (especially that of a GK), is at least partially used in sustaining a wounded astartes. What makes this theory even more plausible, is that psychic shenanigans could be applied to offer a higher quality of preservation than normal marines. I would want to draw a link to the golden throne and how it sustains the emperor to the same technologies being used in a GK dreadnought, but I got no hard facts to back that up. And before someone brings up the fact that people are sacrificed daily to keep the emperor alive, some say the technology of psi-weaponry is a similar concept, and while the soul of the GK is powerful enough, it's not as strong as the emperors. So perhaps instead of "paying in installments" like the Emperor does, the GK dreadnought is "paying outright" by sacrificing a X amount of psykers once, instead of over time. 

 

@Iron Lord, good to see my suspicion has been more or less confirmed. Also the reason I suspect their eyes aren't burnt out is because their geneseed comes from the Emperor himself. Think of it as a toxin - if you got affected by your own toxin, it wouldn't hurt you. So by that extension, being subjected to the soul-bonding with the emperor wouldn't hurt them. In fact, maybe that's what "unlocks" the GK geneseed similar to the Blood Angels, if it needed to be so? Just a thought.

 

 

….'surgical techniques'. That's what I thought you meant. Thanks for the clarification. As far as using an extension of the Golden Throne technologies to extend or enhance a GK Contemptor pilot, in my mind, what the Golden Throne does, stays with the Golden Throne. I haven't seen anything in the lore that would convince me otherwise. But, we are free to speculate and stretch the lore here, so if that's the direction you want to go in, I've no problem with that either

 

 

 

 

 

As we've not seen Contemptors among the GK thus far more likely than not, they don't have them (not impossible, just not likely). When GW reintroduced the Contemptor into the 40Kverse, you'd think they would have found a way to give them to the GK's if they wanted them to have them. Another point to consider is that the psychological stress placed on SM's interred in Contemptors tends to burn them out.

 

 

I've never read that about Contemptors. There's references to Contemptors whose inhabitants fought in the Great Crusade -  which implies that there's no burnout problem.

 

It's Leviathans (and the new Redemptors) that are suggested as burning out the inhabitant.

 

 

I pulled out my old notes from when FW first introduced the Contemptor (Yeah, I'm that much of a lore geek). At the time the blurb concerning burnout read very similar to that of the Leviathan. I suspect the statement was edited out of the Contemptor description so the Leviathan wouldn't look like just a ramped up version of the Contemptor. That doesn't negate the risks inherent with internment in the Contemptor, so I stand by my original statement.

 

Contemptors that survive to M41 doesn't mean there is no burnout problem. There are always exceptions to the rule. Many named characters (Asartes, Chaos Space Marines, Martians, etc.) have survived the ten thousand years between the Great Crusade to the time of the Great Rift. They are the exceptional few.

 

Now, just because we haven't seen Contemptors among the ranks of the Grey Knights, doesn't  mean they don't exist. It just means we haven't seen them. If anyone wants to kit-bash one and play it in local games, go for it

[Dagoth Ur]

What is to be noted concerning the Thousand Sons Osiron Contemptor Dreadnought - and what makes it quite relevant to the discussion - is that it contained a device specifically built to allow for safe internment of space marines in dreadnoughts in general (The so-called Osiron, as invented by Magnus). The plans for this device have been shared with other legions as per Inferno, though it seems unlikely that anyone made any real use of them. However it also means that plans for psychic dreads of any variety have been available at some point via the Osiron and considering how closely Sanguinius and Magnus collaborated on the Librarius project, it might also mean that the BA psychic dread might very well contain such an Osiron device. Considering how extensive the preparations for the GK's founding were, I could definitely see them possessing such plans.

 

As for Grey Knights, I could definitely see them using psychic Contemptors and Deredeos - perhaps even Leviathans in the worst of circumstances - and the lack of rules for them is, in my mind, to be chalked up to GW/FW's lazyness or some oversight. GK, after all, also lack access to a lot of deimos pattern engines, which makes absolutely no sense.

[Iron Lord]

 

I pulled out my old notes from when FW first introduced the Contemptor (Yeah, I'm that much of a lore geek). At the time the blurb concerning burnout read very similar to that of the Leviathan. I suspect the statement was edited out of the Contemptor description so the Leviathan wouldn't look like just a ramped up version of the Contemptor. That doesn't negate the risks inherent with internment in the Contemptor, so I stand by my original statement.

 

IMO it being edited out, is good reason to believe it's been retconned out.

[Skywrath]

**Post retracted** 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Skywrath

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

What is to be noted concerning the Thousand Sons Osiron Contemptor Dreadnought - and what makes it quite relevant to the discussion - is that it contained a device specifically built to allow for safe internment of space marines in dreadnoughts in general (The so-called Osiron, as invented by Magnus). The plans for this device have been shared with other legions as per Inferno, though it seems unlikely that anyone made any real use of them. However it also means that plans for psychic dreads of any variety have been available at some point via the Osiron and considering how closely Sanguinius and Magnus collaborated on the Librarius project, it might also mean that the BA psychic dread might very well contain such an Osiron device. Considering how extensive the preparations for the GK's founding were, I could definitely see them possessing such plans.

 

As for Grey Knights, I could definitely see them using psychic Contemptors and Deredeos - perhaps even Leviathans in the worst of circumstances - and the lack of rules for them is, in my mind, to be chalked up to GW/FW's lazyness or some oversight. GK, after all, also lack access to a lot of deimos pattern engines, which makes absolutely no sense.

As  TS and GK player, I was so hoping that Ritual of the Damned would contain rules for psychic dreads/contemptors for the two factions, as the idea fo them facing off, or even Magnus being defeated/banished by GK piloting something he helped create would have been awesome!

I am really hoping we get access to more of the FW stuff soon, Sicarans for instance fit into our playstyle and would be a great way for use to deal with Daemon engines (but the whole weakness/l inability to take them out is a weird spot from GW.

[Brother Lunkhead]

With the way Dreads in general are being treated by the GW Rulesmiths, I don't think they are any sort of priority for them..... pity

[Gederas]

The contemptors aren't imbued with psychic support hence they don't make use of them. If you look at our current dreadnoughts - the vortimer and regular dreadnought, both of them have a way to express psychic ability.

-COUGH-

 

:P

[Skywrath]

 

The contemptors aren't imbued with psychic support hence they don't make use of them. If you look at our current dreadnoughts - the vortimer and regular dreadnought, both of them have a way to express psychic ability.

-COUGH-

 

 

 

Well that definitely presents a conundrum.. 

 

However, two things spring to mind here - the osiron contemptors were pretty rare, even as far as contemptors were concerned. The only two chapters that used them extensively, by my knowledge are the Thousand Sons and the Blood Angels (which come to think of things is the precursor to the modern day Librarian Dreadnought). Another thing worth mentioning is that was that how available was that technology available before, after and during the Horus Heresy? If the later is "not widely available" then as far as things are concerned, contemptors might have not existed at all for the GK/inquisition!   

 

Nonetheless, if it didn't have thousand son iconography that would be a pain to remove, I would definitely have bought and painted it in GK colors. Beautiful model for sure, but not as good as the Dark Angel one :) For the Lion Emperor!

Edited May 17, 2020 by Skywrath

[Gederas]

Well, my thought on the Osirion Dreadnought is this:

It's rare because there was only ever really two Legions that had enough psykers in them to justify making them. So the technology to make them might have been as common as any Contemptor, but since only Thousand Sons and Blood Angels produced enough psykers to justify their use....

[Dagoth Ur]

Well, my thought on the Osirion Dreadnought is this:

 

It's rare because there was only ever really two Legions that had enough psykers in them to justify making them. So the technology to make them might have been as common as any Contemptor, but since only Thousand Sons and Blood Angels produced enough psykers to justify their use....

Yeah but that's the thing - even if only two legions made use of them, we know that all the legions had blueprints and schematics disseminated to them. Considering how extensive the preparations were, I cannot imagine that Malcador and the Knights Errant wouldn't have robbed some caches blind and stabbed some astartes dead to get their hands on'em.

[Iron Lord]

 

Well, my thought on the Osirion Dreadnought is this:

 

It's rare because there was only ever really two Legions that had enough psykers in them to justify making them. So the technology to make them might have been as common as any Contemptor, but since only Thousand Sons and Blood Angels produced enough psykers to justify their use....

Yeah but that's the thing - even if only two legions made use of them, we know that all the legions had blueprints and schematics disseminated to them. Considering how extensive the preparations were, I cannot imagine that Malcador and the Knights Errant wouldn't have robbed some caches blind and stabbed some astartes dead to get their hands on'em.

 

 

 

As written, to be fair, the Blood Angels list in IA VIII doesn't grant them access to Contemptor-Osirons. 

 

 

 

However, two things spring to mind here - the osiron contemptors were pretty rare, even as far as contemptors were concerned. The only two chapters that used them extensively, by my knowledge are the Thousand Sons and the Blood Angels (which come to think of things is the precursor to the modern day Librarian Dreadnought). Another thing worth mentioning is that was that how available was that technology available before, after and during the Horus Heresy? If the later is "not widely available" then as far as things are concerned, contemptors might have not existed at all for the GK/inquisition!   

 

 

 

 

My theory is that the Blood Angels used the plans for  the Osiron (not necessarily the whole Dreadnought itself, but definitely the device within it that allows a Librarian to use their powers and not damage themselves or go crazy) as a basis for creating the the first Furioso Librarian dreadnoughts.

Edited May 18, 2020 by Iron Lord