SM army with no primaris. Can it work in competitive?

[Ultramarine vet]

So, as it stands, I have no primaris and only firstborn marines. I'm hearing a lot that a SM army with no primaris is not very competitive, but I have had pretty good results without them. Anyone else have success without primaris, or am I the only nut case doing this? Statistically, the intercessors are the only unit that is pretty much outright better than tactical marines. However, that to me is a small con for firstborn marines, since they can still hit just as hard? Predators, devastators, devastator centurions/assault centurions, whirlwinds, terminators, vanguard veterans, thunderfire cannons, bikers, etc.

 

What is everyone's thoughts on this particular topic?

[Panzer]

I actually can't really think of many Primaris units you'd want in a competetive list that you can't just do with regular Marines instead. Intercessors are nice but often filling your Battleline with Scouts and Incursors is better. Eliminators are great, no question. Why would you want the other Primaris units over regular Marine units though?

Edited May 16, 2020 by Panzer

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

So it's not really about Primaris or non-Primaris, as much as it is about which units are the best in the army. There are enough non-Primaris options to fill a tournament list with the heaviest hitters, but if you want to make a "classical" list with things like Predators, Rhinos, Terminators, forget it. These are not good options, just like some Primaris units are not good options, unfortunately. As much as I love things like Terminators, Infiltrators, Assault Marines, etc, these are just very underwhelming units that are eating up points better spent on far more powerful options.

 

Among the non-Primaris units, the best options that you see regularly in top lists are as follows:

 

- Vanguard Veterans with jump packs, and an assortment of storm shields, thunder hammers, chainswords, and occasionally lightning claws.

- Chaplain with jump pack

- Smash Captain

- Thunderfire Cannon

- Scouts

- Centurions (both variants)

- Chaplain Dreadnought

 

Other options are Leviathan Dreadnoughts, Contemptors, and I've even seen winning lists use Land Speeders, Devastators, Techmarines, and Rapiers. Still haven't seen any winning lists use Tactical Marines, Terminators, or Rhino-chassis vehicles though. Centurions, Scouts, and Vanguard Veterans are the most commonly used tournament units.

 

For casual play, there is such a wide variety of non-Primaris units that you can safely skip Primaris and still make a good list. You do miss out on some very nice models and units like Intercessors and Eliminators, but it's not a huge deal.

[Ultramarine vet]

So it's not really about Primaris or non-Primaris, as much as it is about which units are the best in the army. There are enough non-Primaris options to fill a tournament list with the heaviest hitters, but if you want to make a "classical" list with things like Predators, Rhinos, Terminators, forget it. These are not good options, just like some Primaris units are not good options, unfortunately. As much as I love things like Terminators, Infiltrators, Assault Marines, etc, these are just very underwhelming units that are eating up points better spent on far more powerful options.

 

Among the non-Primaris units, the best options that you see regularly in top lists are as follows:

 

- Vanguard Veterans with jump packs, and an assortment of storm shields, thunder hammers, chainswords, and occasionally lightning claws.

- Chaplain with jump pack

- Smash Captain

- Thunderfire Cannon

- Scouts

- Centurions (both variants)

- Chaplain Dreadnought

 

Other options are Leviathan Dreadnoughts, Contemptors, and I've even seen winning lists use Land Speeders, Devastators, Techmarines, and Rapiers. Still haven't seen any winning lists use Tactical Marines, Terminators, or Rhino-chassis vehicles though. Centurions, Scouts, and Vanguard Veterans are the most commonly used tournament units.

 

For casual play, there is such a wide variety of non-Primaris units that you can safely skip Primaris and still make a good list. You do miss out on some very nice models and units like Intercessors and Eliminators, but it's not a huge deal.

I have a hard time with the terminators not being good stance, however. Especially assault terminators with thunder hammers and stormshields. I use mine with a terminator captain and the chapter tactic whirlwind of rage, they will annihilate just about anything I want dead. Maybe I can see what you're saying about some of these units, but even predators can dish out a lot of damage for very cheap. Repulsors and Impulsors are disgustingly expensive. Edited May 17, 2020 by Ultramarine vet

[Ultramarine vet]

I actually can't really think of many Primaris units you'd want in a competetive list that you can't just do with regular Marines instead. Intercessors are nice but often filling your Battleline with Scouts and Incursors is better. Eliminators are great, no question. Why would you want the other Primaris units over regular Marine units though?

It's definitely not that I want primaris units over firstborn, as I feel like I can make my army work in competitive. I just hear a lot about a mixture of them is the most competitive, not the one over the other. Which is fairly understandable, I suppose.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I have a hard time with the terminators not being good stance, however. Especially assault terminators with thunder hammers and stormshields. I use mine with a terminator captain and the chapter tactic whirlwind of rage, they will annihilate just about anything I want dead. Maybe I can see what you're saying about some of these units, but even predators can dish out a lot of damage for very cheap. Repulsors and Impulsors are disgustingly expensive.

 

The biggest issue with TH/SS TEQ is that the VV do that loadout better since they have much better mobility and can much more quickly and reliably get into combat and stay there compared to TEQ. VV also tend to be found in higher numbers, which makes it much more easy to prevent the enemy from falling back with proper positioning. Every Predator loadout also has a more efficient alternative. For example, full-las Predators are outdone by full-las Contemptors who are more durable and accurate, solid ammunition Predators are outdone via sheer volume with Centurions or Aggressors, etc.

 

The results speak for themselves, if TH/SS TEQ were the optimum loadout, we'd see them at least a few times, if not in every single list. Instead, we don't see them at all. Meanwhile, every third list that tops an event contains jump VV with TH/SS. As long as the TH/SS TEQ can deep strike and successfully charge immediately, they'll still perform as well as VV for the majority of the game, but because VV are more reliable and have a large movement advantage which is crucial in 40K, people will use that option instead.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Tyberos the Red Wake

[Ultramarine vet]

 

I have a hard time with the terminators not being good stance, however. Especially assault terminators with thunder hammers and stormshields. I use mine with a terminator captain and the chapter tactic whirlwind of rage, they will annihilate just about anything I want dead. Maybe I can see what you're saying about some of these units, but even predators can dish out a lot of damage for very cheap. Repulsors and Impulsors are disgustingly expensive.

 

The biggest issue with TH/SS TEQ is that the VV do that loadout better since they have much better mobility and can much more quickly and reliably get into combat and stay there compared to TEQ. VV also tend to be found in higher numbers, which makes it much more easy to prevent the enemy from falling back with proper positioning. Every Predator loadout also has a more efficient alternative. For example, full-las Predators are outdone by full-las Contemptors who are more durable and accurate, solid ammunition Predators are outdone via sheer volume with Centurions or Aggressors, etc.

 

The results speak for themselves, if TH/SS TEQ were the optimum loadout, we'd see them at least a few times, if not in every single list. Instead, we don't see them at all. Meanwhile, every third list that tops an event contains jump VV with TH/SS. As long as the TH/SS TEQ can deep strike and successfully charge immediately, they'll still perform as well as VV for the majority of the game, but because VV are more reliable and have a large movement advantage which is crucial in 40K, people will use that option instead.

That is fair enough Tyberos, I can definitely respect that. I love Vanguard veterans myself, and I do bring them with lots of TH/SS, and lightning claws. You can get terminators into combat, using the custom chapter tactics however. Hungry for Battle and teleport in a TA librarian with them to cast Veil of Time, and they can make a charge quite easily with an 8" re-rollable charge. I have actually tested it and it works well, so far anyways.

 

The reason I like getting terminators into it is because they have the 2 wounds and that really good stratagem fury of the first. I still think they can be viable, we just haven't seen much of anyone try it. I personally love running both Vanguard veterans and assault terminators if I'm doing a heavy close combat list. Either way, I think we can definitely agree that thunder hammers are the way to go.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Ultramarine vet

[Panzer]

Just to make you aware how unbalanced Terminators are currently, here the base cost comparison of a similar unit that actually gets used competetively.

 

Sanguinary Guard (20p):

M12, T4 W2 Sv2+, FLY, Deep Strike

 

 

Terminators (23p):

M5 T4 W2 Sv2+/5++, Deep Strike

 

Three points per model less for way more mobility and the valuable FLY keyword. The 5++ rarely matters with a 2+ armour since it would take AP-4 or better before it gets actually used.

Now one could argue wargear so lets take a look at that aspect.

 

Regular Terminators get a Powerfist and a Stormbolter, so S8 AP-3 D1d3 in melee and 4 S4 AP0 D1 shots at 24" range (thanks to Bolter Discipline).

Sanguinary Guard can also get a Powerfist and come default with an Angelus boltgun(they don't have to pay additional points for it), so S8 AP-3 D1d3 in melee and 2 S4 AP-1 D1 shots at 12" (Assault weapon).

 

Means regular Terminators are sliiiightly more shooty, but seriously who takes Terminators or Sanguinary Guard to shoot with Bolters anyway. That's more flavour than anything else.

 

So let's take a look at Assault Terminators instead. Lightning Claws just don't cut it (heh, pun intended) unfortunately so let's move straight to Thunderhammer and Stormshields.

That's where Terminators start to shine in this comparison since the 3++ helps blocking pesky AP-2 and AP-3 shooting and Thunderhammers with their fix D3 are simply good. However it's a quite expensive loadout and clocks in at +12ppm (!) compared to the Powerfist Sanguinary Guard.

But as Tyberos already mentioned that's not the correct comparison anyway. Vanguard Veterans with the same loadout and Jump Packs cost only 3ppm than Sanguinary Guards with Powerfist and 8ppm less than TH/SS Terminators. Sure they have one wound less, however you get more models to equal things out which is worth a lot (they even get used in competetive Blood Angels lists alongside Sanguinary Guard).

 

As for army synergy, there they fall flat even more. Nobody utilises anything unique Terminators might have to offer and anything that helps them helps others more. Infiltrating? Just take Centurions or Aggressors. Help with the charge? Why not help one of the more cost efficient units with the charge instead?

Heck, Sanguinary Guard don't even get played with Powerfists anymore these days in most competetive lists. Instead they are played with Encarmine axes (basically force axes stat-wise) which is cheaper and more than enough combined with the +1S aura from their Priests, the +1 to wound from their chapter tactic and the tons of attacks from their super doctrine and Sanguinor etc (they basically double the amount of attacks and wound everything on either a 2+ or a 4+).

 

 

tl;dr:

If you are looking to play competetively without Primaris, starting with Terminators is not the best way. In fact Terminators offer one of the main things Primaris are currently lacking which is a strong deep striking melee unit, so if anything they'd find a place in a Primaris list if it weren't for the fact that the Jump Pack melee units weren't simply better so you'd just take them instead anyway.

[tychobi]

Trumarines are very competative but terminators are not. Look into centurions, scouts, devistators, thunderfire cannon, jump characters, and bike characters for solid infantry picks. Efficiency is pretty high throughout the codex but the space marine meta is very sharp at the moment. Primaris are not required to win games but have some very good units. Mixed forces are thematic and powerful if a little odd looking. In the end army building is 15% of the win equation with experience and knowledge about 75%. 10% luck for good measure it is a dice game after all!

[Ultramarine vet]

Hmm. This is very enlightening my friends, I will admit. I have used terminators in fairly casual games, not competitive. So I am very inclined to believe that they are probably not the best choice, mostly because of their lack of speed, I have gathered. Seeing as if my opponent is smart enough to deny my terminators to teleport near important units, they won't get anywhere to do anything, even with re-rolling charge distance. I do have a good amount of vanguard veterans that I should probably use instead. I have a jump pack chapter master after, so I will embrace bringing vanguards veterans along with him. Edited May 17, 2020 by Ultramarine vet

[Claws and Effect]

It's a Forge World unit, but look into Land Speeder Tempests.

 

It's a T6 flying vehicle with 6 wounds that is packing an assault cannon and salvo launchers. (Salvo launcher is d3 S6 2d shots). Oh, and it's only 87 points.

 

Hits on 4s when it moves. I pair them with a biker captain upgraded to Chapter Master. Both him and the Tempests have a 14" move stat so he has no trouble keeping up with them.

 

I ran 2 of them with a Chapter Master and unit of Suppressors at the 500 point level of an escalation league and just destroyed everything.