Dark Raiders

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

Is there anyway to make the most out of the Renegade Chapter trait for those of us with custom warbands?

[Doom Herald]

Protip: use the other Legion traits and say your a warband who's origin is that legion.

 

Seriously though, theres no reason to use Dark Raiders if you can get a copy of Vigilis: Ablaze. The rules there say that any renegade warband can use any of the warband traits listed there. The Red Corsairs trait is Dark Raiders +. If you aren't using the keyword for the named warbands, you can't use their relic, stratagem, and warlord trait though. On top of this, since Faith and Fury came out, Legions are very much a better option, especially since they dont lose access to Veterans of the Long War. I've never had an opponent that cared about me using any legion/warband trait with my army as long as all the units are legal for that <LEGION> keyword.

 

If you really want to make the most out of advance and charge though, it's great on Daemon Princes and it helps possessed get into combat. I've heard people like bikers for it too, but I dont think I would go that rout unless I had a big unit of them running as extra wounds so their Champion could make it to melee to hit with a heavy melee weapon. Berzerkers do well with it too. Pretty much, melee focused units can make use of it. Warptime in concert with it is pretty nice since you can advance both times you move. You could maybe try it with the Host Raptorial relic to move over more units and hope to get more chances at inflicting mortal wounds, but that would cost you atleast 1 CP, your relic, and you can't take another specialist detachment for that detachment.

Edited May 17, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Gree]

Seriously though, theres no reason to use Dark Raiders if you can get a copy of Vigilis: Ablaze. The rules there say that any renegade warband can use any of the warband traits listed there. The Red Corsairs trait is Dark Raiders +. If you aren't using the keyword for the named warbands, you can't use their relic, stratagem, and warlord trait though.

Is that explicitly stated for the Renegade traits in Vigilus? I don't have it. I recall GW said something similar for Space Marines and Guard traits, but I wasn't aware of anything for the Renegade Chapters.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Gree

[MegaVolt87]

 

Seriously though, theres no reason to use Dark Raiders if you can get a copy of Vigilis: Ablaze. The rules there say that any renegade warband can use any of the warband traits listed there. The Red Corsairs trait is Dark Raiders +. If you aren't using the keyword for the named warbands, you can't use their relic, stratagem, and warlord trait though.

 

Is that explicitly stated for the Renegade traits in Vigilus? I don't have it. I recall GW said something similar for Space Marines and Guard traits, but I wasn't aware of anything for the Renegade Chapters.

Counts as for DIY has been a thing forever for 40k. You could do pastel blue CSM with a parrot with eyepach icon, the Void Sailors and use them as red corsair rules if you wanted because they still use the offical CSM and red corsair rules.

[Indefragable]

Bikers with flamers:

 

Move 14”

Advance 6”

Auto-hit with flamers

Charge up to 12”

 

Great for flanking maneuevers*, nuking things like a Lomé Guardsmen squad off an objective, and just playing tying up vehicles and other annoying things you want to turn the guns off of. All for under 100pts.

 

*since units don’t actually have flanks in this game, I mean hitting your opponent in a way he was not expecting and/or moving so far and fast that you’d unit winds up in a position he probably wasn’t planning for.

[Doom Herald]

Pg. 196, second paragraph under the RENEGADE TRAITS section:

"If your chosen Renegade Chapter does not have an associated Renegade Trait, you can instead pick the trait that you think best represents your army."

 

If you replace <LEGION> with anything other than the Traitor Legions, or the warbands named in this book, you can choose any of the traits listed in Vigilus Ablaze. This only applies to Legion traits, which means that you don't get their Warlord Trait, Strategem, or Relic. In the case of Crimson Slaughter and Red Coraisrs, you are better off just saying they are "Red Corsairs" or "Crimson Slaughter" in order to get access to everything. For the other four, things are different. The FAQ/Errata added a requirement that your <MARK OF CHAOS> must be of the warbands respective patron gods (ie: NURGLE for THE PURGE). This does not prevent you from naming your warband, for example, The Brazen Host and using the Death to the Imperfect trait with KHORNE units, even though the Flawless Host (who are the named warband with that trait) must be SLAANESH for their <MARK OF CHAOS>. In this case, the Brazen Host would be able to use the Death to the Imperfect ability due to the rules quoted above, but the other rules that the Flawless Host normally would get do not have a similar rule and do require the appropriate keyword, which BRAZEN HOST units do not have.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Gree]

Counts as for DIY has been a thing forever for 40k. You could do pastel blue CSM with a parrot with eyepach icon, the Void Sailors and use them as red corsair rules if you wanted because they still use the offical CSM and red corsair rules.

I am aware of that, but that's not quite what I was asking.

 

Would the ''Void Sailors'' also receive the Red Corsairs Warlord Trait, Relic and Stratagem then? Doom Herald makes it sound like they must be Red Corsairs in order to receive everything instead of just the trait. I was wondering if this was explicitly stated in the rules or if that was just their personal interpretation.

 

 

This only applies to Legion traits, which means that you don't get their Warlord Trait, Strategem, or Relic. In the case of Crimson Slaughter and Red Coraisrs, you are better off just saying they are "Red Corsairs" or "Crimson Slaughter" in order to get access to everything.

Is it explicitly stated that they must have the keyword to use the Warlord Traits and Relics or is that just your interpretation?

 

Some rules like the Space Marine supplements do specify that a homebrew chapter using it's own keyword can take everything from their parent chapter except for the special characters. For example, my ''Silver Fists'' successor chapter using the ''Silver Fists'' keyword can take everything from the Imperial Fists supplement except for the special characters. I was unsure how that related to the Chaos example.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Gree

[MegaVolt87]

Well, they may have tightened it up for SM by excluding named characters, CSM are still very open ended though. You don't miss out much over named characters, I would let you use the new IF primaris guy because it's still mechanically and still an IF army in all but paint job. Just have two lists less the named characters if people give you issues.

[Special Officer Doofy]

Rules wise they just have to follow faction rules. So make every unit in your pretend legion <Red Corsairs> on their datasheet. Follow the rules for them. You can take their warlord trait, relics and even character Huron Blackheart. Just paint them whatever color and call them what you want. It's all a pretend table top game. Your using your legion as a counts as for Red Corsairs.

 

My friend made an angry marines army based on salamanders (not a successor). It uses <Salamanders> on their datasheets and its chapter tactics, relics and such. He uses Adrax Agatone, their new character. They are all painted yellow. There are no rules about colors having to be painted a certain way. He's used them in a tournament before. Worst case is he is playing a poor sport and instead of calling them his made up chapter he would just call them salamanders for this particular opponent to avoid confusion. As long as you follow the games rules (if your the first founding you can't take successor stuff and vice versa), it doesn't matter what color your guys are. The only difference is instead of green his guys are yellow. There's no power gaming or rule breaking. This game was kind of made off of that imagination. I've seen many DIY chapters since Guilliman came out that are counts as ultramarines that use him. It's refreshing to not have them all smurf blue.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Putrid Choir

[Gree]

Well, they may have tightened it up for SM by excluding named characters, CSM are still very open ended though. You don't miss out much over named characters, I would let you use the new IF primaris guy because it's still mechanically and still an IF army in all but paint job. Just have two lists less the named characters if people give you issues.

Oh, I'm asking out of curiosity. I don't attend tournaments and my local gaming group is very permissive, so I could run whatever I want regardless of paint scheme. I'm just wondering if the RAW actually says that or if that is just the interpretation of certain players.

 

 

 

 

[MegaVolt87]

 

Well, they may have tightened it up for SM by excluding named characters, CSM are still very open ended though. You don't miss out much over named characters, I would let you use the new IF primaris guy because it's still mechanically and still an IF army in all but paint job. Just have two lists less the named characters if people give you issues.

Oh, I'm asking out of curiosity. I don't attend tournaments and my local gaming group is very permissive, so I could run whatever I want regardless of paint scheme. I'm just wondering if the RAW actually says that or if that is just the interpretation of certain players.

 

I don't have the new SM supplements, however the wording would mirror the SM restrictions etc, which it does not as far as I can tell. Only restrictions I believe were the CSM FAQ where you can't take, say mark of slaneesh on Brazen Beasts keyword units because they are considered to have the khorne keyword or something like that. 

[McElMcNinja]

I have played at tournaments against yellow Ultramarines and blue Blood Angles, with named characters in them. Paint your army however you want, but if you're going to mix chapters, legions, cults, etc. just make sure they are distinguishable from one to the next. Edited May 26, 2020 by McElMcNinja

[Doom Herald]

 

Counts as for DIY has been a thing forever for 40k. You could do pastel blue CSM with a parrot with eyepach icon, the Void Sailors and use them as red corsair rules if you wanted because they still use the offical CSM and red corsair rules.

I am aware of that, but that's not quite what I was asking.

 

Would the ''Void Sailors'' also receive the Red Corsairs Warlord Trait, Relic and Stratagem then? Doom Herald makes it sound like they must be Red Corsairs in order to receive everything instead of just the trait. I was wondering if this was explicitly stated in the rules or if that was just their personal interpretation.

 

This only applies to Legion traits, which means that you don't get their Warlord Trait, Strategem, or Relic. In the case of Crimson Slaughter and Red Coraisrs, you are better off just saying they are "Red Corsairs" or "Crimson Slaughter" in order to get access to everything.

Is it explicitly stated that they must have the keyword to use the Warlord Traits and Relics or is that just your interpretation?

 

Some rules like the Space Marine supplements do specify that a homebrew chapter using it's own keyword can take everything from their parent chapter except for the special characters. For example, my ''Silver Fists'' successor chapter using the ''Silver Fists'' keyword can take everything from the Imperial Fists supplement except for the special characters. I was unsure how that related to the Chaos example.

The rules for relics, etc.. in Vigilus say that an eligible unit has to have the relevant keyword, ie: THE PURGE.

[Doom Herald]

The rules for Renegades all require the appropriate keyword. But Renegade Traits, and only Renegade Traits, has a section in its rules that says if you have a renegade warband with a different name than the 6 listed you may choose whichever renegade trait you feel best fits your warband. Relics, Warlord Traits, and Strategems do not have a similar rule and therefore still require the appropriate keyword by RAW.

 

As far as using different color schemes, etc., as long as your army follows all the rules for the <LEGION> keyword you selected their color scheme and iconography really shouldn't matter. I played Crimson Slaughter in 7th and played them in the first part of 8th with Night Lord rules because they fit best. On a slight tangent, they still fit better than the garbage rules they gave Crimson Slaughter in Vigilus. But, anyway, as long as all the rules, datasheets, traits, etc. work with your keywords, whatever you paint them and probably even call them, shouldn't matter as long as you let the other player know what keywords you're using because keywords are what really determines what rules you can use, not the color or warband name. There's even a part in the <LEGION> section that says use what ever Legion your warband came from (or something to that effect). A lot of Legions are fractured and formed up into several warbands so it would make sense that succesor warbands generally use their parent Legion's keyword. The Butcherhorde for example would use the WORLD EATERS <LEGION> keyword even though they are The Butcherhorde warband. CSM doesn't have the well put together definition on how successors work like SM do, but this is the best, really only, explanation we do have in the rules.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Gree]

My apologies, I was going to reply to this thread, but I got sidetracked.
 

I don't have the new SM supplements, however the wording would mirror the SM restrictions etc, which it does not as far as I can tell. Only restrictions I believe were the CSM FAQ where you can't take, say mark of slaneesh on Brazen Beasts keyword units because they are considered to have the khorne keyword or something like that.

I believe the Imperial Guard and Eldar FAQ’s state that you can’t take the Strategem or Relic if your using the Trait, but not the keyword. So if I’m using the Cadian Trait with the <Redshirts> keyword, I can’t take the Cadian Relic or Stratagem. I am unaware of any similar FAQ or ruling for the Chaos Marines. If anyone can provide a source for that I would be interested.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Gree

[Doom Herald]

There is no official rule stating similar, only the fact that everything for Renegades BUT warband traits have the keyword listed as a requirement for use, but the warband trait explicitly states that a warband with a different <LEGION> keyword can take any trait, just trait, it does not state they can use anything else specific to a warband.

 

1) RAW states the appropriate keyword as requirement to utilize all respective Renegade rules.

 

2) RAW explicitly states that a warband other than those listed can use whichever Renegade Trait you feel best fits.

 

3) RAW does not explicitly state or even imply that you may use Warlord Traits, Strategems, or Relics specific to a warband unless you have the appropriate keyword.

 

Conclusion: any warband with a keyword other than those listed can use any Renegade Trait, but not the other rules since they do not have the appropriate keyword.

 

I think by the time this came out, similar questions had been addressed enough that the rules team felt it redundant to address it in this specific condition.

Edited June 6, 2020 by Doom Herald