Underused HH units and why?

[Mogsam]

Yes flamers are better in ZM. They get rending so the high volume of hits suddenly becomes very dangerous.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Yes flamers are better in ZM. They get rending so the high volume of hits suddenly becomes very dangerous.

I think they gain shred don’t they?

 

Cadmus

[Gorgoff]

 

Yes flamers are better in ZM. They get rending so the high volume of hits suddenly becomes very dangerous.

I think they gain shred don’t they?

 

Cadmus

If you play with Deep Void special rule -and there is no reason not to- they have rending as well. Which makes them even much better.

 

 

Brothers, the units you've shown us look all absolutely badass. Great modellingand paint jobs.

 

I just take one some of the mentioned units, which are seen as too weak.

 

Seekers: Hands down one of the best units in the game. With Combi-Plasmaguns sitting in a Termite or Dreadclaw they just eradicate almost any unit you want to. Even bastards like Custodes died miserable when they got into the crosshair of my killer squad:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Ba07lVQAygX/?igshid=1gvvp73sek23f

 

Castaferrum Dreadnought. Yes the cannot footslog and yes the can be destroyed rather easy BUT.

As Cadmus already mentioned they can take a cheap pod and the Flamestorm Cannon which is it's niche. But I've made good experience with the Mortis Dreadnought too in the past. With two rockes and dual Autocannons it is very unpleasant for most fliers and even the omnipresent Rhino is a good target for these little fellas.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BefOSQRAKC2/?igshid=e3yee5vq66fy

 

Techmarine: Rad-Grenades and attached Servo-Automata with missle launchers makes them a fearsome unit.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BczrjfiACGE/?igshid=12kko3t2vzlex

(They weren't painted back then but I have no other pictures)

Predator: The Predators Executioner is one of the greatest tanks in the game when it comes to killing infantry. Three blast templates with S7 and AP2 is just plain awesome. I like this tank so much that I liked to take two but my buddies threatened me with punches if I'd do that. ;)

https://www.instagram.com/p/BfMKOVQgrAy/?igshid=o9wqaljeqidl

(It's in the background, again I haven't got any good pictures)

Edited May 21, 2020 by Gorgoff

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Phoenix Terminators? I love the models but I just can't see a point to them at all.

[Brother Styphus]

Going through the unit listing and thinking on the group in my area:

 

Command Squad. It's not a terrible unit, but they just don't seem worth it.

 

Assault Squad. There are only two Blood Angels players, but they're just the backup army. If people want to run a melee blob, they usually just take the extra CCW on a standard Legionnaire squad.

 

Tarantula Sentry Gun Battery. I always forget these exist, and if I brought one to an event I wouldn't be surprised if someone thought I was taking them as allies. It's a bunch of points into weapons that you can't control.

 

Nobody brings Storm Eagles. Seems like a unit that has either a cheaper or more durable alternative available. Personally, having to build one sounds like it isnt worth the effort, as it's a notoriously bad kit.

 

Any non-Autocannon/Plasma predator variant. Probably because there are better ways to flamer things, and a stationary conversion beamer tank is an easy priority target to take out.

 

Standard whirlwind squads. Because they suck, and if you're going to drop pie plate artillery, the medusa is the only one worth taking.

 

Outside of the Legions, nobody in the area plays Solar Aux or Cults&Militia. The Solar Aux are probably due to the costs. I've built a C&M army, so Ive filled that gap.

[LameBeard]

Recon conversions for my XXth effrit stealth force:

Cadmus

I am too old to use emojis but if I weren’t on the mobile I’d break my duck and use the face with hearts instead of eyes. Where did you get those rebreather heads?

And @indefragable - beautiful too. I have actually seen that thread before I now realise, full of inspiration. I love it when the frater get out models before Forgeworld, like your dawn breakers.

[sarabando]

My seekers, il be expanding them in the future and adding some mkII vets.

 

[No Foes Remain]

Command squads need a shake up really, I think that they need to be verterans+1 but with a max of 5 as they are. But at the moment why would you take them when you can take verterans or terminators which will do a better job for a little bit more in points.

 

 

For the SoH assault squads are decent, their bulky rule makes a 10 man squad count as 20 models, so attack a hq and/or an apoth and you've got a decent beatstick for not that much points. Though I agree that the basic assault squad needs a shake up, as tacticals + cc weapons are just better in most cases than assault squads.

 

In regards to Storm Eagles, I think its the kit that is the reason why people don't field them. Thats why I'm not planning on getting any for my armies, I've heard too many horror stories about them to be convinced that they are a good idea rules be dammed.

 

It has been mentioned a few times in this thread but I think Legion specific units need a real good look at. Some aren't worth taking at all and others are an insta-take (looking at you Tyrant Termies, Suzerains and Sekhmet). Some are over-coasted for what they bring/do and some are really undercoasted for what they bring/do.

[sarabando]

Command squads need a shake up really, I think that they need to be verterans+1 but with a max of 5 as they are. But at the moment why would you take them when you can take verterans or terminators which will do a better job for a little bit more in points.

 

 

For the SoH assault squads are decent, their bulky rule makes a 10 man squad count as 20 models, so attack a hq and/or an apoth and you've got a decent beatstick for not that much points. Though I agree that the basic assault squad needs a shake up, as tacticals + cc weapons are just better in most cases than assault squads.

 

In regards to Storm Eagles, I think its the kit that is the reason why people don't field them. Thats why I'm not planning on getting any for my armies, I've heard too many horror stories about them to be convinced that they are a good idea rules be dammed.

 

It has been mentioned a few times in this thread but I think Legion specific units need a real good look at. Some aren't worth taking at all and others are an insta-take (looking at you Tyrant Termies, Suzerains and Sekhmet). Some are over-coasted for what they bring/do and some are really undercoasted for what they bring/do.

i think command squads are a good choice because they dont take up a slot like vets would, your point on stormeagles/fireraptors is spot on, i want like 3 in my collection but ive put off because the cost and the complaints about how hard it is to build

[No Foes Remain]

Agreed on both points Sarabando. Termie Cmd Squads become scoring which means an extra non-slot scoring for a average amount of points. But I do feel that they need a tweek with with wargear, them being only able to take combi-bolters is the real kicker. I would love to take a combie-volkite Command Squad with power weapons in a Land Raider but RAW I can't and I'd rather run a 9 man Veteran Squad to act as bodyguard for my Delegatus in a Raider than a Command Squad in Power Armour.

 

 

And I really think that the Storm Eagle/Fire Raptor kit needs re-doing. I would love to own at least one of each but with suffering from Asthma and hearing horror stories worthy of voiceover from Vicent Price Himself about that kit I'd rather not and find other units to fill that slot or just work around it completely.

[Hfran Morkai]

Command Squads either getting additional members or two wounds each would be a massive boost because they just don't seem to have the staying power.

 

After reading the horror stories of Storm Eagles I'm glad I bought one pretty much assembled (need to fit weapons, one wing but that's it) and would probably look at getting someone far more competent and dexterous than me to build any future Storm Eagles or Fire Raptors.

[Indefragable]

Command Squads (CS) are what make HH so fun, IMO: so ripe for creativity on al levels: fluff, crunch, hobbying. I’m seriously not trying to push my own thread, but an example of mine is on that same link:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/363378-indys-indomitable-the-ix-legion-legiones-astartes/?p=5510406%C2%A0

 

I think they could be tweaked to make them a bit more feasible:

Hidden Content

 

-can be taken by HQ’s other than Praetors, with some fluffy exclusions...

 

-...but Praetors can pay to upgrade their CS. In my mind there should be a difference between company/platoon command squads and chapter command squads

 

-Chosen Warriors: stay as it is

 

-Chosen Duty: must be given an objective each game.

—Vital Ground: This could be an actual game objective marker, in which case they get Implacable Advance for that objective

—Vital Officer: guarding their HQ, in which case they get to re-roll Look Out Sir and get a 5+ FNP not combinable with other sources

—Vital Blow: destroying an enemy unit (with specifications) in which case once per game they get Preferred Enemy.

 

-the above must be determined in the list building phase, kind of like Veteran Tactics

 

I like the idea of them being a few reliable warriors who the commander would entrust special tasks to and you can thus tailor them a bit more to what you want. You can have Seekers-Lite, Machine Killers-Lite, etc... That way you also get a reason to take regular guys over terminators all the time.

 

Maybe Librarians and other non-command specialists who take a CS can only have Vital Officer or such.

Legion Champion can take a CS, but doing so removes their Chosen Warriors rule, etc...

 

As for Assault Squads, as a BA player I can’t think of a time I wouldn’t want to use them. At least in my play style they just work too well for what I want to do.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Indefragable

[Brofist]

Command squads need a shake up really, I think that they need to be verterans+1 but with a max of 5 as they are. But at the moment why would you take them when you can take verterans or terminators which will do a better job for a little bit more in points.

To me, vets are one of the problems here. They're just still too good after the mega buff they got a few years ago. Not to say command squads and other units shouldn't get revisited, but when you have a unit that overshadows a lot of other options without any real drawbacks its a design issue imo

[StrangerOrders]

EC without Jump Packs is hard for me to envision tbh (granted, I dont win more than 40-ish percent of the time so there might be a reason for that).

 

Usually take at least one Assault Squad and Jump Palatines in most games. 

 

Dont see many Mortis Dreads though. Talons and Deredeos tend to be more popular.

[MegaVolt87]

 

Command squads need a shake up really, I think that they need to be verterans+1 but with a max of 5 as they are. But at the moment why would you take them when you can take verterans or terminators which will do a better job for a little bit more in points.

To me, vets are one of the problems here. They're just still too good after the mega buff they got a few years ago. Not to say command squads and other units shouldn't get revisited, but when you have a unit that overshadows a lot of other options without any real drawbacks its a design issue imo

 

 

While I lack HH experience admittedly, to me its also just that there is an overall design disconnect in general with rules power creep. Another example is how good the DA termi's are to others. A power increase for other units is always an option instead of a nerf. I see it as more the other options are under-powered/ over pointed compared to vets IMO. Although I love my tac squad spam lol, 30+ love it. 

[Cadmus Tyro]

Recon conversions for my XXth effrit stealth force:

Cadmus

I am too old to use emojis but if I weren’t on the mobile I’d break my duck and use the face with hearts instead of eyes. Where did you get those rebreather heads?

And @indefragable - beautiful too. I have actually seen that thread before I now realise, full of inspiration. I love it when the frater get out models before Forgeworld, like your dawn breakers.

Lol, they were from a company called “puppets war”:

https://puppetswar.eu/ravagers-heads.html

The real pain was replacing the bolters for Phobos pattern bolters on some of the landspeeder storm scouts!

Cadmus

[Gorgoff]

Those heads are wonderful. I used them for my IW Assault Squad. Make them at least look badass.

 

Your Recons look like lean mean killing machines by the way. Love 'em.

[Mogsam]

Second the point about Phoenix Terminators. They just need access to some anti tank weapons and they'd be fine, but with pure spears they can't kill a dread. It makes them so useless.

 

I have 25 of the models, but they use normal terminator weapons.

 

I have assault squads, but they're not regulars in my EC.

[LameBeard]

... But I do feel that they need a tweek with with wargear, them being only able to take combi-bolters is the real kicker. I would love to take a combie-volkite Command Squad with power weapons in a Land Raider but RAW I can't and I'd rather run a 9 man Veteran Squad to act as bodyguard for my Delegatus in a Raider than a Command Squad in Power Armour.

 

I'm sure that combi-bolters in the red book is a typo and should read combi-weapons. Especially at 10 points. Why are they just about the only unit that gets this upgrade? And how would you model it, by buying Alpha Legion head-hunters?  I would have no problem with any opponent reading this as 'combi-weapon', even though the FAQ-improved combi-volkite might make me live to regret it!

[Lautrec the Embraced]

My main issue with command squad (regular ones, as Terminator CS is often fielded by me and i find it very ok) is the size. 5 man is just not enough for a squad that fluff wise should roll with your Praetor.

While their price is not terrible, the cost of jump packs or bikes is disgusting. It really discourages you from taking such loadouts.

 

If we're talking about their rework I'm against giving them 2 wounds. They are pretty sturdy already, AA+Combat shield could make them poor mans terminator. However I don't believe they should be just another melee beasts.

 

I'd really love to see them turned into what a normal command squad is in other armies or 40k. So a bunch of normal veterans with options for additional characters resembling cheaper, weaker consuls. We already have pseudo Herald in it so why not expand this?

If we look at Solar Auxilia they get in their Command Sections Vexilarius (our Herald-like guy) and Strategos and Proclamator (in conjunction they work kinda like MoS). I suppose that by letting command squds upgrade some members to such lesser , weaker "consuls" (like Chap, MoS, Herald or Champ), there would be (hopefully) more place to take more esoteric and niche Consuls (like Librarians, Vigilator, Armistos or Forge Lord). But it could be difficult to not make consuls entirely redundant.

 

I'm surprised about your experience with Assault squads. I wouldn't have guessed that they are not popular as I regularly play with and against them. But clearly some legions (VIII, IX, XVI...) may be more into them.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Lautrec the Embraced

[Gorgoff]

I'd go another road with the design of the Command squad. They should include specialists like the Solar Auxiliar has. Not as powerful as the different consuls but you get the idea.

[No Foes Remain]

 

... But I do feel that they need a tweek with with wargear, them being only able to take combi-bolters is the real kicker. I would love to take a combie-volkite Command Squad with power weapons in a Land Raider but RAW I can't and I'd rather run a 9 man Veteran Squad to act as bodyguard for my Delegatus in a Raider than a Command Squad in Power Armour.

 

I'm sure that combi-bolters in the red book is a typo and should read combi-weapons. Especially at 10 points. Why are they just about the only unit that gets this upgrade? And how would you model it, by buying Alpha Legion head-hunters?  I would have no problem with any opponent reading this as 'combi-weapon', even though the FAQ-improved combi-volkite might make me live to regret it!

 

Oh I agree but it boils down to RAW/RAI just because of a typo that hasn't been FAQ'd since the first Black Book (which I am currently looking at). So I hope they change that if/when they redo the Red Books.

 

 

 

Edit:

 

I'd go another road with the design of the Command squad. They should include specialists like the Solar Auxiliar has. Not as powerful as the different consuls but you get the idea.

 

I agree, and after some thought I had an idea or two. What if Command Squads were a max size of 7 but in addition of getting a Banner Bearer they get the option of taking an Apothecary as well, give them the actual options of taking damn combi-weapons and maybe(?) artificer armour to represent that these guys are veterans+1. This way a full squad an a MoL can fit in a Proteus with the Explorator Web (which limits its size to 8, a nice fluffy tidbit).

 

Edited May 22, 2020 by No Foes Remain

[LameBeard]

What if Command Squads ... get the option of taking an Apothecary as well...

 

This I like. What about if this were the *only* way to get an apothecary? (Maybe outside a few legion or Rites of War specialities?)

[No Foes Remain]

See I would agree but this is the Legions, where they could lose scores of Astartes in a single battle and call it a win. So it would make sense for them to be able to have Apothecaries seperate, though I would like them to have some tweeks as well.

 

 

Or...or.... You get a 0-1 Apothecary detachment as it is now but to get any more you'd need a primus medicae to get any more.

[Dagoth Ur]

 

What if Command Squads ... get the option of taking an Apothecary as well...

This I like. What about if this were the *only* way to get an apothecary? (Maybe outside a few legion or Rites of War specialities?)

 

Oh god no, that'd be terrible. Marines get taken off the board by the handful as is - don't need to make that process even quicker.