Underused HH units and why?

[LameBeard]

 

What about if this were the *only* way to get an apothecary? (Maybe outside a few legion or Rites of War specialities?)

 

Oh god no, that'd be terrible. Marines get taken off the board by the handful as is - don't need to make that process even quicker.

Ok keep your apothecaries. How about command squads the only way non-characters can have combi-volkite? Could solve multiple problems in one.

 

More seriously, I like the idea of just giving command squads a little buff that no-one else gets. For example, I really like “counter attack” as a nice little special rule, one reason I like destroyers. And there’s already a lot of talk about how destroyers need improvement, so I’d give them ‘fearless’ instead. Now two (nearly unique) units with small buffs.

 

The main reason to take a command squad is still going to be modelling that standard. And the reason it’s low on my priority list is because that image doesn’t really fit the theme of my smaller forces. So here’s my final idea: command squad with no upgrades is *free* once you have 50 non-character, non-terminator, non-infiltrating infantry on the board. The opposite of tax (subsidy?)

[SkimaskMohawk]

Combi-volkites are also terrible. The most terrible? Free models; 7th edition Detachments proved that it's one of the easiest ways to unbalance the game.

 

Command Squads do have a niche, but the niche is it's fearless aura and not their damage output. Fearless is extremely strong and that aura is one of the last sources of it for units. Free models.

 

Seekers are underused, but it's more of a problem of not wanting to leave the comfort zone of Vets. It's basically a list-building thing where a lot of people just take the minimum troops and use Pride to fill it out as cheaply as possible. I personally don't like making lists that way because being able to score objectives at the end of the game requires more than the minimum; seekers have more flexibility in target selection and list builds, but require to think a bit about list building.

[LameBeard]

The most terrible? Free models; 7th edition Detachments proved that it's one of the easiest ways to unbalance the game.

Fair point, that could be a slippery slope.

[Brofist]

Seekers are underused, but it's more of a problem of not wanting to leave the comfort zone of Vets. It's basically a list-building thing where a lot of people just take the minimum troops and use Pride to fill it out as cheaply as possible. I personally don't like making lists that way because being able to score objectives at the end of the game requires more than the minimum; seekers have more flexibility in target selection and list builds, but require to think a bit about list building.

Word man. It's totally this. Hard to take Seekers when vets are so easy and so good.

 

In my league we broke the game with vets really quickly. Lots of stigma for overusing them now, which has helped with self regulation.

[Bung]

I plan on using some IF Seekers with a Master of Signal just to rub some BF 7 Bolter goodnes in peoples wounds.

[LameBeard]

The guys on Radio Free Istvaan always used to say how under-rated attack bikes were. Can’t say I’ve seen any in the wild though.

[Hfran Morkai]

I've seen I think one attack bike modelled up?

 

Was the available attack bike sidecar attached to an Outrider and modded to fit in with the aesthetic. Not sure how much work would go into it though. Also with three Outriders costing as much as they do it doesn't give me hope for a FW model.

[Gorgoff]

I use Assault bikes.

Work like a charme.

 

Shapeways make the additional seat for 30k by the way.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Gorgoff

[Hfran Morkai]

Just checked them out.

 

Tempting, very tempting. Now to look for some Heresy era legs for the plastic Land Speeder crews.

[sarabando]

Just checked them out.

 

Tempting, very tempting. Now to look for some Heresy era legs for the plastic Land Speeder crews.

just built 2 speeders was annoyed to find the legs molded onto the seats :(

[Gederas]

Just checked them out.

 

Tempting, very tempting. Now to look for some Heresy era legs for the plastic Land Speeder crews.

just built 2 speeders was annoyed to find the legs molded onto the seats

To be fair, it's near-impossible to see the legs of marines in Land Speeders anyways. The torso/head is the part you should care about when it comes to making a GW Land Speeder fit in 30k

Edited May 28, 2020 by Gederas

[Mogsam]

Yeah, you can't see the legs anyway, wouldn't worry about it.

[Cadmus Tyro]

Yeah, don’t worry about the legs ;)

Cadmus

[Hfran Morkai]

Thanks guys! Haven't actually looked at Land Speeder in years

[SkimaskMohawk]

The fast attack slot is pretty much the most neglected slot in terms of popular units. I think the most common things to spring to mind are javelins, lightnings and dreadclaws when someone mentions it. The thing is, you get some great units in there who have a ton of utility. Attack bikes and land speeders can be taken in mass formations and used simply to block enemy movement with ther speed. You don't need to give them good guns, just boost them up and prevent movement. Maybe toss melta bombs onto the attack bikes.

[STC Logisengine]

Basic Tactical squads, There is so much around that just deletes marines en masse and veterans are just much better point for point so you rarely see the large infantry blocks anymore.
I do use them as much as possible but they are just not competitive, perhaps if they lifted the move/charge restrictions on Fury and bumped a some points of they would do better.

[Gorgoff]

Basic Tactical squads, There is so much around that just deletes marines en masse and veterans are just much better point for point so you rarely see the large infantry blocks anymore.

I do use them as much as possible but they are just not competitive, perhaps if they lifted the move/charge restrictions on Fury and bumped a some points of they would do better.

Depends on which legion someone plays, really. World Eaters love them while for IW they are cannonfodder at best.

[STC Logisengine]

True, a few legions can make good use of them though that is based on modifications via special characters or legion-specific rites of war, but most legions don't.
I think allowing Fury to be used without restrictions on move/charge and a small pointdrop, say 100pts for the basic squad, 8pts per bonus marine and ccw at +1pts , would make them viable for all legions.

[Gorgoff]

True, a few legions can make good use of them though that is based on modifications via special characters or legion-specific rites of war, but most legions don't.

I think allowing Fury to be used without restrictions on move/charge and a small pointdrop, say 100pts for the basic squad, 8pts per bonus marine and ccw at +1pts , would make them viable for all legions.

And horrible effective in the hands of WE,SoH, RG, AL and other.

They should have one unique thing which makes them viable which has nothing to do with damage output.

Erase Implacable Advance out of the game.

Noone but troop choices should be able to hold objectives. Or maybe only the core troop choices have Implacable Advance which trumps all other forms of scoring. Something along that line.

That'd make them special for everyone to the same degree.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Gorgoff

[Lautrec the Embraced]

 

True, a few legions can make good use of them though that is based on modifications via special characters or legion-specific rites of war, but most legions don't.

I think allowing Fury to be used without restrictions on move/charge and a small pointdrop, say 100pts for the basic squad, 8pts per bonus marine and ccw at +1pts , would make them viable for all legions.

And horrible effective in the hands of WE,SoH, RG, AL and other.

They should have one unique thing which makes them viable which has nothing to do with damage output.

Erase Implacable Advance out of the game.

Noone but troop choices should be able to hold objectives. Or maybe only the core troop choices have Implacable Advance which trumps all other forms of scoring. Something along that line.

That'd make them special for everyone to the same degree.

I don't think that Tactical Squad are really that much underused (though compared to fluff where most units should be tactical squads they surely are), they have quite a strong presence in some armies. I also wouldn't touch their price as they are already really cheap and it would mostly make armies that already use whole swathes of Tacticals (lookin at you World Eaters) even more deadly.

 

I don't like the idea of having to pay for Troops like a Tax just to be able to hold objectives. I think Implacable Advance has its place in the game but making it weaker seems interesting. Tacticals could have their own Objective Secured rule that makes their unit size for example twice as big for purpose of determining who holds the objective. So 3 Tacticals with such rule would be able to hold objective despite 5 enemy Veterans.

 

Personally the thing that holds me back with Tactical squad is the lack of power weapons, e.g. the " 1 in 5 can take ..." rule that Assault squad has. I would happily replace one big Assault squad with Despoiler squad but i really need those Axes... Without it, if I look for basic cc unit with chainswords I will just take Terror Squad.

 

One thing I have in mind is what Solar Auxilia have. For every few of their basic troop choices, equivalent of our tactical squad, they can take for a modest price a Troop Master, which is a glorified sergeant, with something like +1 WS and W. It's hardly a game changer but if we were to implent something similar ( for ex. one 20man TacSquad can get this half-Sergeant-half-Centurion guy for +10pts, with +1 W and A or maybe WS or I?) it would make Tactical slightly better... though again, I'm not sure if some legions need to have better tacticals...

[Slips]

Thats definitely an idea that could work.

 

Hell, it could be for every 2 Tactical Squads, you can take an FoC Slotless 'Lieutenant' for 25-30pts who is basically a 2W Vet Sarge (with normal sarge upgrades) with the reason behind buying one being he can grant tactical squads within X" of him re-roll 1s to wound. (could make this so that it only applies to tactical squads with at least 5 members within 6" of him be able to get the buff to prevent weird spaghetti formations around 1 'LT')

 

+++

 

Otherwise, the units I feel which are the most underused are:

• Boxnaughts that arent dual fist w/ grav gun in drop pods haywire suicide units
• Rotor Cannon TSS squads
• Basic Centurion

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

Even though it is kind of weird that Centurions are basically the only stop between Praetor and a veteran sergeant that is currently available, but I don't really like the idea of aura characters popping up in Horus Heresy like they are around in 8th edition.

 

As for rotor cannon tactical support squads, they are not around because rotor cannons suck and yeah they should be buffed (but I am kind of worried we might get one of these pendulum balance changes where they go from horribly underpowered into ridiculously powerful).

[Gorgoff]

Rotor Cannons are meant to be used against humans and in this regard they work just fine. Optional S4 for X points would be nice though.

 

I despise the idea to make charakters walking buff bubbles. That's just lazy rulewriting. Regular centurions should have a unique selling point. Something which only he has. Maybe a selection of traits like the veterans have.

[LameBeard]

... it could be for every 2 Tactical Squads, you can take an FoC Slotless 'Lieutenant' for 25-30pts who is basically a 2W Vet Sarge (with normal sarge upgrades)

 

This bit of the idea I really like. It fits the fluff, it would be fun to model and no further reason required. On his own he would give that little extra bite to the tactical squad - a power weapon, melta bomb, another way to take challenges ... Edited May 31, 2020 by LameBeard

[Slips]

Rotor Cannons are meant to be used against humans and in this regard they work just fine. Optional S4 for X points would be nice though.

 

I despise the idea to make charakters walking buff bubbles. That's just lazy rulewriting. Regular centurions should have a unique selling point. Something which only he has. Maybe a selection of traits like the veterans have.

Isnt that what the consul upgrades do anyways? You either give him rules that affect a unit hes attached to or an aura to affect more than 1 unit.

 

I also don't see the complaints about aura buffs when we already have a ton in 30k such as:

• Command Squad Fearless Aura
• Paladin of Glory WLT
• All the 7th Ed BRB Command Warlord Traits which are 12" auras
• Legion Herald
• Master of Signals
• Damocles Command Rhino
• Some Legion Characters
• Some Primarchs (such as Sanguinius) although army/table wide effects that are only active if they're present on the table (a la Dorns LD buff) are arguably stronger than Auras.

So I don't see how giving Tactical Squads an LT-like character that makes them (and only them) better for a slight points cost is a bad thing since, yknow, most people do what they can to avoid taking them or take the absolute minimum required.