Underused HH units and why?

[Elzender]

Maybe an alternative would be that it gives a buff to his assigned tactical squads, regardless of distance, but only to them? (and requiring the squads to purchase a nunciovox to represent their squad communications).

 

Another possibility would be to "downgrade" regular centurions (but not consuls) to Elite, being able to be purchased in groups of 1-2/3 like apothecaries, and with similar limitations to which units they can be attached. They could provide some small bonus to the squad, maybe Stubborn or some other bonus to leadership/morale tests?

[TheTrans]

Maybe an alternative would be that it gives a buff to his assigned tactical squads, regardless of distance, but only to them? (and requiring the squads to purchase a nunciovox to represent their squad communications).

 

This could work, maybe allow him to issue one of 3 orders to tactical squads only.

 

1. Fire and Move: Allows a FOTL attack and then a normal move to be made

2. Close Formation!: Gives unit Counter Attack until next turn

3. Into the Breach!: Allows every model to make a grenade attack, still allowed to charge afterwards

 

Or something like that, not huge buffs, but something that can make a tactical squad something to worry about. 

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Basic Tactical squads, There is so much around that just deletes marines en masse and veterans are just much better point for point so you rarely see the large infantry blocks anymore.

I do use them as much as possible but they are just not competitive, perhaps if they lifted the move/charge restrictions on Fury and bumped a some points of they would do better.

Depends on which legion someone plays, really. World Eaters love them while for IW they are cannonfodder at best.

 

 

Hey man, my Iron Warriors use them as fodder at its best. Can't melta bomb the super heavy, deepstrike on the flanks or tie up the shooting units when there's 60 tacs spread out just taking up space.  Basically clogs up half the board if you get Master of Ambush. 

 

I'm a little confused how people who take minimum troops score. When there's only 15 - 30 scoring models, it's not too hard to prevent a win; those dreadclaw vets with plasma are already begging to be targeted. You gotta take objective holders that are too much of a nuisance to begin targeting them

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

Basic Tactical squads, There is so much around that just deletes marines en masse and veterans are just much better point for point so you rarely see the large infantry blocks anymore.

I do use them as much as possible but they are just not competitive, perhaps if they lifted the move/charge restrictions on Fury and bumped a some points of they would do better.

Depends on which legion someone plays, really. World Eaters love them while for IW they are cannonfodder at best.

 

 

Hey man, my Iron Warriors use them as fodder at its best. Can't melta bomb the super heavy, deepstrike on the flanks or tie up the shooting units when there's 60 tacs spread out just taking up space.  Basically clogs up half the board if you get Master of Ambush. 

 

I'm a little confused how people who take minimum troops score. When there's only 15 - 30 scoring models, it's not too hard to prevent a win; those dreadclaw vets with plasma are already begging to be targeted. You gotta take objective holders that are too much of a nuisance to begin targeting them

 

 

I guess they are taking termi's to make up the diffrence and tac squads ?

[Slips]

Or FoC slot manipulation to move units into troops to make them scoring.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'll try and explain my thoughts a bit better. There's a good amount of units with implacable advance and FoC manipulation available; Terminators, veterans, seekers, mor deythan, dawnbreakers, terror squads, raptors, suzerains, kakpahony, templars, etc.... The list goes on. These units are all good because they provide threat on various levels and score on top of that.

 

But thats also a weakness when talking about scoring units, because they're going to be a focus due to their more advanced threat level. So lists with min sized filler troops with and a smattering of implacable advance stuff still don't make sense to me, because those min squads tend to get pasted by barrage and those implacable advance units tend to be higher on the priority list (especially if they're driving at you or deepstriking).

 

What I find works best, is large enough troop choices that will need a few volleys each of barrage, on top of various other scoring threats. Like 6 scoring units with over 50 bodies. The opponent needs to feel like they have to over commit to remove your basic troops, and then they'll be alive past the point they can be dealt with. Obviously some legions do it better than others.

[The Scorpion]

 

Flame storm cannons are especially brutal in ZM. Up there with my irradiation engine myrmidon

That's something I've always wondered. Are flamer weapons in general better in Zone Mortalis than elsewhere? I always thought they would be, but was never sure.

 

 

All blast and template weapons gain Shred in ZM.

Edited June 1, 2020 by The Scorpion

[Brofist]

Make vets worse and you'll see more tactical squads

 

As I've played more, I actually take less scoring units. Everybody has a strategy though.

[Gorgoff]

 

 

 

 

 

Basic Tactical squads, There is so much around that just deletes marines en masse and veterans are just much better point for point so you rarely see the large infantry blocks anymore.

I do use them as much as possible but they are just not competitive, perhaps if they lifted the move/charge restrictions on Fury and bumped a some points of they would do better.

Depends on which legion someone plays, really. World Eaters love them while for IW they are cannonfodder at best.

Hey man, my Iron Warriors use them as fodder at its best. Can't melta bomb the super heavy, deepstrike on the flanks or tie up the shooting units when there's 60 tacs spread out just taking up space. Basically clogs up half the board if you get Master of Ambush.

 

I'm a little confused how people who take minimum troops score. When there's only 15 - 30 scoring models, it's not too hard to prevent a win; those dreadclaw vets with plasma are already begging to be targeted. You gotta take objective holders that are too much of a nuisance to begin targeting them

I guess they are taking termi's to make up the diffrence and tac squads ?

Most of the time we play 2k-2.5k games. It's a little bit difficult to get 60 tacticals in that which basically do jack in missions where objectives are not a thing.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of these players who don't know how to use tactical marines. First of all they can score and you can give them a Rhino with multimedia. But they do have their limitations which is rather fitting. In every story they die in droves and only in games against other armies like militia they seem to be underwhelming. Being able to Fury of the Legion every turn instead of only every other would help immensely in that regard.

[Lautrec the Embraced]

Buffing character is one thing, consuls and primarchs are just this and no one has issues ( or at least I don't) with that but buffing auras , like the ones 8th editions characters have, could lead to very eerie army deployment with several units just staying all game long within 6" of a character and lead to a very static game, especially when buffs affect range combat.

 

Silver lining is that here we still have blast weapons so you could really punish the player who would dump everything within 6" of a character.

 

Fortunately I don't think we have a ton of such buffing bubbles. Fearless banners and Paladin of Glory are an exception but most thing are direct buffers; i don't see how Damocles and MoS have supposedly aura buffs. And command WT are a nuisance. Many primarchs have buffs that affect whole armies - those are sometimes very powerful but c'mon, it is a Primarch!

 

I'd definitely be against Lieutnant giving reroll aura like they already do in 8th edition, i'd rather stick with straight buff to the unit they are in.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Lautrec the Embraced

[SkimaskMohawk]

I guess it all depends on the missions, but I really don't see how someone can win with less scoring options. We play with barrage unable to go through ruin floors like 6th ed, and its still the bane of backfield objective holders.

 

@gorgoff, I play 2500-3000 but the catch is that it's always 3-5 objectives and end game scoring. I can totally understand their use dropping the more you need to accomplish more dynamic goals.

 

And also now familiarizing myself with the core missions, I see how many include kill points, end of turn scoring and zone control instead of actual objectives. So ya, I now get why people don't value tacs or dedicated scoring as much when playing those missions lol.

Edited June 1, 2020 by SkimaskMohawk

[Scammel]

I'm gauging that this isn't a widely-shared opinion, but I think the Centurion is absolutely fine and has a home in the list as simply being the cheapest option that exists; while he isn't outstanding without enough kit to defeat the object of taking him in the first instance, there are always going to be some players who are just looking for the least pricey option out there.

 

And honestly, if you're looking for more pizzazz, the range of Consul upgrades is so long and so open to interpretation that I think it fits that need. Siegebreakers, Chaplains and the like never struck me as being so well-defined in 30k that you couldn't get creative about them simply being a Centurion with a personality trait, and especially so for the Champion.

[Fallen11]

Some things I have never seen in the wild: Ashen Circle,

 

 

I would argue they are prolly OP.  220 pts for 10 jump pack guys who all have SW5 S5 AP3 weapon, It's not even specialist weapon, so each guy has 2 attacks, 3 on charge. Each has hand flamer which is better than pistol, they have better armor vs blasts and templates, S5 hammer of wraith that you always have, even burning descent if you DS them. And you get all that for 45pts more than assault squad with chainswords, LOL...oh, and they can have phosphex bombs xD. 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Fallen11

[LameBeard]

Is it the play test rules that makes them OP or have they now been adopted into the official rules? Clearly there was an issue at some point with their unpopularity, but I wonder if it’s just lack of synergy with what you’d find in a typical Word Bearer force.

[Fallen11]

Well, it's in official FAQ. Though yes, don't understand since they are stated as playtest, still, can you use them or not?

Edited February 9, 2021 by Fallen11

[LameBeard]

I think you are encouraged to use them but maybe some tournaments don’t use them?

[Slips]

It would have to be with opponents permission.

[SkimaskMohawk]

At this point were almost at the 2 year mark of no faq (2 days!), and it'd be weird to see people defaulting to the 4 shot quad launcher as the far more balanced version "is still play test" .

 

Ashen circle, phalanx warders, immortals and palatine blades all needed buffs (and some sadly still do) and it's silly to treat it as permission only at this point.

 

As to ashen circle in particular, they're very cost efficient, but the trade off is that the word bearers have a very bland legion trait that has little synergy and their rites are extremely specific in application. Strong special units, bland everything else. Theyre of course far more annoying with zardu in list.

[Fallen11]

 

Ashen circle, phalanx warders, immortals and palatine blades all needed buffs (and some sadly still do) and it's silly to treat it as permission only at this point.

 

.

 

Still trying to see why would I ever pick up HeadHunters, because such a cool unit is so bad and overcosted...

Then there are Lernean terminators, not as bad as Headhunters, but still can't find reason why take them over normal terminators, considering their loadout.

Then there is Exodus who is also just bad...killing a single marine per turn...

[SkimaskMohawk]

Yea those units could use help too. The alpha legion has the weird honour of being an extremely strong legion, with a ton of flexibility in builds, the ability to cherry pick the best legion units and a primarch that has crazy force multiplication. With some of the worst special units, period.

[Fallen11]

Yep, that's my main beef with AL, very flexible(though always outclassed in particular department by other legions), but basically you are always taking vanilla units because your special units are simply underwhelming and not worth it. Such a wasted opportunity that such great units in fluff are best left at home.

[Varyn]

The recent rules update that the Night Lords received in Crusade is very encouraging for the other older legions, hopefully a new legion book isn't far off with more updates and a consolidation of all the new legion units over the past few years

[SkimaskMohawk]

The recent rules update that the Night Lords received in Crusade is very encouraging for the other older legions, hopefully a new legion book isn't far off with more updates and a consolidation of all the new legion units over the past few years

Kind of? Like yes, it shows that they're willing to buff legions and expand them further. But it also shows how they wildly misread the balance state of that legion. I've mentioned it a few times, but I honestly expected nerfs, not buff after buff after buff.