Which Non-Primaris SM units are still cutting it?

[Bat33.1]

As an antidote to the 'is it dumb to buy non-primaris marines' in 2020 I thought I'd try to start a thread for advice with newer players or returning players in mind.

 

So as the title - Which non-primaris space marine units are you putting in your lists and what role are you using them for?

[War Angel]

Scouts devistators centurions

[Terrified Templar]

If I were to list the top five Firstborn Marine units I am using in my lists it would look like this

 

1: Characters with jump packs and bikes: It's really handy to have characters with mobility that don't rely on transports, being able to quick redeploy them for their auras, buffing abilities, and close combat punch trumps their Primaris Counterparts unless I am going for a specific setup where foot slogging characters aren't an issue. 

 

2: Melee units: Its kind of a two for one listing but since Primaris lack dedicated melee units and the Firstborn marines have got great choices in the form of Vanguard Vets and Centurions I'd lump them into the same category since they fulfill the same role as melee units albeit the former is used more aggressively and the later performs more of a counter assault role in my lists. Vanguards Vets can be kitted out with weapons like Thunderhammers and having the Fly keyword which gives them mobility and close combat punch, stormshields are cheap on them and help make them more durable. Assault Centurions are durable, have good firepower, and have built Siege Drills which are basically thunder hammers without the -1 to hit. Only downside is lack of mobility.

 

3: Scouts: Basically they are a cheap troop choice for filling out Battalions and Brigades, can be redeployed as well so they got some interesting roles as speed bumps or early obj grabbing depending on the mission. 

 

4: Scout Bikers: These units have really grown on me, I run 3 3-man squads of these guys with the sergeant totting a stormbolter for added fire power. They are cheap at 71 points per squad in this setup. They have 16" movement, can put out 16 bolter shots at 24" or 22 bolter equivalent shots at 12", and they got close combat weapons so at a pinch they can be used in melee if needed. In Tactical Doctrine they guys are incredible in my opinion. Useful for filling out Brigade detachments.

 

5: Thunderfire cannon: 60" range, no need for LoS. and they got nice strats for extra shooting as well as slowing down enemy units. 

[Hymnblade]

Leviathan and Contemptor Dreadnoughts still hold up really well, although the codex Contemptor less so than the Relic/Mortis from FW.

 

Assault Centurions are insanely powerful if you have any way to deliver them.

[Bat33.1]

What are the best transport options for centurions? Drop pods? Drill?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I don’t think they can deploy via pods... not sure though.

[Gederas]

Centurions can only be in Land Raiders, Stormravens or the Caestus Assault Ram for transports you'll ACTUALLY use. Because while they can also go in Thunderhawks and Mastodons, you're not going to be using those in regular games :lol:

[Hymnblade]

The best transport option is playing Raven Guard or White Scars so you can deep strike them. Transporting them in an actual vehicle is much worse, since there is no vehicle in the SM roster tough enough to stand up to focused fire. Black Templars with a 4++/5+++ on a Land Raider Crusader get the closest to being usable IMO.

[Panzer]

Vanguard Veterans are also very much still worth it. They are even taken alongside Sanguinary Guard and Death Company in competetive Blood Angels lists.

[Ishagu]

-Scouts

-FW Contemptor Variants

-FW Sicaran Venator

-Various characters

-Grav Devs

-TFire Cannon

-Some Flyers

-Some Veterans

 

Units that work but only with specific chapters:

-Centurions

-Vanguard Veterans

 

I should also add that not every Primaris unit is cutting it, either.

 

Reivers need a boost, and Hellblasters were completely ignored in the new codex. Overpriced and no Strat support.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Ishagu

[SillyDreadnought]

All of them.

[Damnsternguard]

So tact squads, TH/SS terminators, sternguard, legion of the damn, and bikes even worth anything? Can you even use the bases the non-primaris have? This coming from some who hasn't played since 6th ed.

[HighMarshalAmp]

I find that Dreadnoughts as a high T anti-tank platform are fun to play if nothing else.

 

Other than that, I still field 5 Man Tac Squads with 2 Special Weapons as Troop Choices and Sternguard bring good AP Dakka for less points per shot than Intercessors.

The amount of D2 weaonry that gets fielded against C:SM also doesn't do more against them than D1 which can be a good thing.

 

I've learned not to underestimate the Power of Drop Pods either. I don't even own enough Pods to hide the entirety of my army in them like some seem to do, but taking the fight (and Sternguard) to the front early on saves many of your units from being picked off before they can make their points back.

 

 

So tact squads, TH/SS terminators, sternguard, legion of the damn, and bikes even worth anything? Can you even use the bases the non-primaris have? This coming from some who hasn't played since 6th ed.

It depends on where you draw the line between worthless and worth taking.

 

LotD are in Legens now, which means that they won't be considered in any future point cost adjustments and are thus hereby nonexistent in the competitive scene.

A year down the line, their cost will most likely no longer reflect their capabilities (like GW point costs ever really do that )

 

The rest of what you listed and the largest chunk of traditional C:SM armies is still rules legal - yes, even the bases.

It is important to consider that no C:SM player is the only one whose time-honored collection is now approaching it's latter days. We're all in the same boat and only a fraction of C:SM players have immediately disposed of their collections and started anew.

So at least against Oldmarines, Oldmarines are no worse than they were in 7th and you're certainly gonna find enough players happy to field their Oldmarines against you - Horus Heresy light.

 

And many of our old models can still perform nicely against other factions as well.

Being Iron Hands helps (for now) so if your old colleciton is by chance IH, you're gonna look a lot less like someone chasing the latest trends of the Meta and respraying all his 2 year old blue Primaris black as soon as IH became the elite Chapter they are now

Edited May 26, 2020 by HighMarshalAmp

[Berzul]

From a purely strategic and gameplay perspective? Scouts are the go-to unit of the Firstborn marines. Not because they are any good in and of themselves, but because they are the cheapest possible way of filling up a Brigade or a Battalion in an army.

 

But, you will find many players still play firstborn armies out of pure love of the lore of their own collections.

 

Personally, I almost ALWAYS play a trio of 5-man tactical squads geared with full plasma weaponry (sometimes I even play them as combat squads from 10-man units, to put a plasma cannon in there as well), alongside a Company Ancient, and use them as a firing line that either kills you, or dies and then kills you. Love to use those guys.

[TheNewman]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Whirlwind yet, it's pretty points-efficient even before the double-tap strat. Another one that hasn't been mentioned yet is the Techmarine, which is also a bit odd since 1) he's the cheapest HQ option available and 2) outside of IH he has no Primaris equivalent.

 

It's also worth pointing out that even without Jump Packs the various classic Marine characters are never going to be locked out of using any chapter-specific relics by virtue of the gear it has to replace. That's admittedly a problem that is sure to go away over time though.

 

Primaris are getting better about AT options but the Vindicator is still worth mentioning since it's pretty cussed cheap for the damage output. I'd say the Stalker is worth a look too for it's points, but it and the Vindicator both come with the massive caveat that my LGS favors a 1000-point format and you do kind of have to start squeezing every point at that level.

Edited May 28, 2020 by TheNewman

[Lukoi]

Also, aren't Jumppack characters still all firstborns? I don't see a way to make a primaris cpt with a jumppack, and smash captains, chaplains and teeth of terra LT's definitely seem to remain a thing.

[Captain Idaho]

8th edition...

 

- I'm getting great mileage out of Tactical Marines. Their special and heavy weapons (especially the latter) are really helping the list. Marines have limited numbers so having troops that can hold objectives and still put fire down the table is invaluable. Don't forget Hellfire Shells or Flakk missiles ;)

 

- Centurions and Devastators are obvious stand outs, with a solid performance with most if not all weapons load outs.

 

- Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs, myriad of weapon options and Storm Shields are pretty much the premium close combat option for Marines. Even these new releases of Primaris, the Bladeguard, won't come close unless each one of them has Captain stats for like 25pts each. The combination of speed, hitting power and survivability is brilliant.

 

- Biker Captains are great.

 

- Techmarines are excellent.

 

- Chapter Champions are very powerful if you have the right kind of use.

 

- Captains are cheaper and have better options than just about anything in the list. For 77pts you can have a Mastercrafted bolter and Teeth of Terra Captain that can lead mechanised troops effectively whilst getting stuck in. Smash Captains are infamous. Access to Relic Blades and Jump Packs makes for great mobile leaders to assist your lines. Combi weapons (mostly plasma) makes their shooting very consequential. I could go on for ages really but you get the point. :)

 

- Dreadnoughts (including Venerable) provide cheap but effective firepower. Don't degrade.

 

- Ironclad Dreadnoughts help you with target saturation (they will be targeted) and if ever allowed to charge will make a mess. Don't degrade.

 

- Hunters are cheap anti-tank units that give decent footprints and target saturation.

 

- Razorbacks provide more firepower and target saturation for relatively cheap.

 

- Attack Bikes are great objectives takers as they zoom about the table and can support the army with more shots.

 

That's off the top of my head. :)