Advice on Phobos Captain, Smash Captain or Shrike

[Lukoi]

Very pumped to be one of B&C's newest members (if not the newest), and have learned quite a bit from reading the very differing perspectives here on the forums.

 

I've decided on taking a run in competitive formats (ITC and the like, whether that's in local play or someday tournaments), and based on what I'm learning about 8e (btw, I've never played 40k before, but experienced gamer and have always wanted to take a stab at this game), the Raven Guard truly intrigues me.  Very much about the game seems to be centered on the nuances of movement (maybe I'm wrong on that, but it's my perspective so far), and the RG with its newest supplement seem to offer some really interesting possibilities.

 

I'm at a bit of a loss tho, as I fritter over list rewrites over and over on some key items., namely the captains.

 

So, I understand the value of a "smash captain," as a potential melee beast.  Can we build one generally as powerful as most factions with a standard captain, hammer, shield loadout? Any keys to success for a RG specific smash captain I should look out for?

 

I'm extremely intrigued with potential options involving infiltrators, and frankly the comms array giving access to rerolls which seem to be the staple in SM armies.  Batrep after batrep, keeping those buffs up seem to be one of the keys to winning.  IF ya cannot beat em, bolt em, and keep them coming with LT and CPT rerolls.  So, because of that, I find myself wondering if a Phobos based captain and chapter master, tied to infil comm arrays to allow them to operate well outside of the 6" buff radius is as potent as I think it is.  I've yet to see a phobos captain on a list however, so I'm concerned it's too gimmicky an idea.

 

Lastly, Shrike.  I won't lie.  I intended to run my army as a Successor ("Smoke Keshik," a 13th founding, "lost" Chapter, returned from a hard scrabble millennia or two suffering on a Warp consumed planet only recently belched back into real space. Smoke Keshik has veered somewhat from the original codex,livery etc of the RG, but their faith in the Founding chapter is what kept them aliiiiive), but there's definitely some appeal to just playing the army straight down the line RG from an optimization of CP cost perspective.  If I want to move into competitive, more min-max focused play, it seems like I might have to (which ok too).

 

Shrike isn't smashy....seems competent at melee, but not exceptional.  He cannot help my geographically split out Infiltrators as he's no longer a Captain with Battle Rites.  I want to leverage movement, not leave him back buffing the gun-line, but I also do not want to lose mass rerolls (they just seem so key).  What am I overlooking with Shrike?

 

It seems expensive to run a list with two captains, and I'm pretty sure I cannot give a second captain a 2CP Chapter Master buff if Shrike is on the table anyway (unless, I run a "soup" mix of RG and RG-Successor....is that an option?)

 

Anyway, any help here would be appreciated.  I instantly get the value in the phobos librarian with spectral blade and the teleporting trick, and the phobos LT with Ex Tenebris is awesome...that's two of my HQ automatically in a RG list.  But...how do I best use the Captains/Shrike from folks point of view?

 

Thanks in advance for any help/perspectives/opinions folks are willing to share!

[tychobi]

Shrike is cool but not meta. Raven guard do very well abusing the movement and charge phases by bypassing the weaknesses of slow units. Your choice of captain is secondary but important. My pick would be a jump smash capt. Kills most anything u do not like. Delicate but deadly. Buffing is not enough reason to shell out captain points in most lists.

[Lukoi]

Shrike is cool but not meta. Raven guard do very well abusing the movement and charge phases by bypassing the weaknesses of slow units. Your choice of captain is secondary but important. My pick would be a jump smash capt. Kills most anything u do not like. Delicate but deadly. Buffing is not enough reason to shell out captain points in most lists.

 

Honestly, that last bit surprises me, especially if it's chapter master enabled set of rerolls.  Just seems like you get a ton of dice opportunities with SM armies and that maxxing reroll opportunities would pay for itself.  Thanks for the feedback!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Very pumped to be one of B&C's newest members (if not the newest), and have learned quite a bit from reading the very differing perspectives here on the forums.

Welcome. We're glad to have you.

 

 

 

I've decided on taking a run in competitive formats (ITC and the like, whether that's in local play or someday tournaments), and based on what I'm learning about 8e (btw, I've never played 40k before, but experienced gamer and have always wanted to take a stab at this game), the Raven Guard truly intrigues me.  Very much about the game seems to be centered on the nuances of movement (maybe I'm wrong on that, but it's my perspective so far), and the RG with its newest supplement seem to offer some really interesting possibilities.

Competitive play is not something I have a ton of experience with in regards to 40k so bear with me. Movement is a key aspect to 40k, but that's not all it is. 40k, unlike a lot of other games I've played, allows you to premeasure, which is why movement seems to be key. The game is really about synergies. Positioning is important, more so than movement, you can have all the movement in the world if your positioning sucks, you'll be chasing your opponent around the board for 6 turns.

 

 

 

So, I understand the value of a "smash captain," as a potential melee beast.  Can we build one generally as powerful as most factions with a standard captain, hammer, shield loadout? Any keys to success for a RG specific smash captain I should look out for?

 

The Relic jet pack is a must for a Smash captain or Murderwings. It does a mortal wound on a 4+ to a unit within 1" of the captain when he ends his charge move. It also allows you to charge even after advancing. The smash captain is a guided missile. just point him at something you don't like and let him delete it. The Thunder hammer is a 3 damage weapon with AP -3, so your Raven's fury smash captain is pumping out 5 attacks each hitting on a 2+ at Strength 8 you're wounding most big things on 3's or 4's, ignoring 3+ armor, and assuming ideal conditions that's 15 mortal wounds, plus the one you hit with just for finishing your charge. 16 Mortal wounds will eat just about anything that you don't like. He's still vicious with statistically average rolls.

 

 

I'm extremely intrigued with potential options involving infiltrators, and frankly the comms array giving access to rerolls which seem to be the staple in SM armies.  Batrep after batrep, keeping those buffs up seem to be one of the keys to winning.  IF ya cannot beat em, bolt em, and keep them coming with LT and CPT rerolls.  So, because of that, I find myself wondering if a Phobos based captain and chapter master, tied to infil comm arrays to allow them to operate well outside of the 6" buff radius is as potent as I think it is.  I've yet to see a phobos captain on a list however, so I'm concerned it's too gimmicky an idea.

 

Infiltrators are cool. The Comms array seems like a great option, I struggle to want it over the Helix adept. I struggle with wanting infiltrators over Incursors. Incursors are better at melee, and they ignore most ballistic skill modifiers (except Harlequin shenanigans, for reasons? Apparently) and they ignore cover. That makes them brutal against 5+ saves. Now, as for CPT and LT rerolls, they're reliable, but chaplain rerolls are better.

 

 

[Lukoi]

Thanks for the feedback.  As I'm doing more reading here and in other places, I've also just discovered a small clarification in the SM Faq that I was not aware of...the comms array specifically does not pick up the rerolls of a chapter master ability, so this helps inform my decision a great deal.  Frankly, I need to look more deeply at the mobility of a murderwings like character to augment my anti-knight capability, and be less concerned about the infiltrators comms array option.  It's indeed a bit situational (still cool for obsec opportunities though).

[WAR]

Very pumped to be one of B&C's newest members (if not the newest), and have learned quite a bit from reading the very differing perspectives here on the forums.

 

I've decided on taking a run in competitive formats (ITC and the like, whether that's in local play or someday tournaments), and based on what I'm learning about 8e (btw, I've never played 40k before, but experienced gamer and have always wanted to take a stab at this game), the Raven Guard truly intrigues me.  Very much about the game seems to be centered on the nuances of movement (maybe I'm wrong on that, but it's my perspective so far), and the RG with its newest supplement seem to offer some really interesting possibilities.

 

 

 

Lukoi, Welcome to B&C and the Ravenspire

 

I will let the more experienced brothers and sisters of the Ravenspire assist you as my responses are probably the less itc friendly. I'm not a a competitive player and play with rule of cool. 

[Lukoi]

 

Very pumped to be one of B&C's newest members (if not the newest), and have learned quite a bit from reading the very differing perspectives here on the forums.

 

I've decided on taking a run in competitive formats (ITC and the like, whether that's in local play or someday tournaments), and based on what I'm learning about 8e (btw, I've never played 40k before, but experienced gamer and have always wanted to take a stab at this game), the Raven Guard truly intrigues me.  Very much about the game seems to be centered on the nuances of movement (maybe I'm wrong on that, but it's my perspective so far), and the RG with its newest supplement seem to offer some really interesting possibilities.

 

 

 

Lukoi, Welcome to B&C and the Ravenspire

 

I will let the more experienced brothers and sisters of the Ravenspire assist you as my responses are probably the less itc friendly. I'm not a a competitive player and play with rule of cool. 

 

 

Thanks War009.  And I definitely do not discount the rule of cool :) - at a certain point, fun outweighs many other factors in my book, even if it costs me a game or dozen, lol.

[Lukoi]

So, regarding the Murderwings - 

 

I'm looking at a captain with the Ravens Fury jumppack, hero of the chapter to unlock Shadowmaster (no overwatch), and I'm getting close to what's mentioned here at 143pts, but only four attacks with the Thunder Hammer.  Is there something I'm missing to get it to five?

 

Thanks.

[BadgersinHills]

So, regarding the Murderwings - 

 

I'm looking at a captain with the Ravens Fury jumppack, hero of the chapter to unlock Shadowmaster (no overwatch), and I'm getting close to what's mentioned here at 143pts, but only four attacks with the Thunder Hammer.  Is there something I'm missing to get it to five?

 

Thanks.

 

Is that 4 including Shock Assault? 

 

Glad to have you here. :) Not a Codex Marines player but I do like the Raven Guard. Hope you have fun here mate.  

Edited May 19, 2020 by BadgersinHills

[Lukoi]

 

So, regarding the Murderwings - 

 

I'm looking at a captain with the Ravens Fury jumppack, hero of the chapter to unlock Shadowmaster (no overwatch), and I'm getting close to what's mentioned here at 143pts, but only four attacks with the Thunder Hammer.  Is there something I'm missing to get it to five?

 

Thanks.

 

Is that 4 including Shock Assault? 

 

Glad to have you here. Not a Codex Marines player but I do like the Raven Guard. Hope you have fun here mate.  

 

 

Thanks and no, I failed to remember that one! Man, soooo many things to keep track of lol.

[Dracos]

There are, and when I came back to the game it was a bit overwhelming at first. I have a good gaming group in my flgs though and after getting a few games in it became exponentially easier and more fun each game. Finding a group of people who love the game for its social aspect is key imo. Doesn’t mean they can’t be competitive, just that they are also into introducing new players into the game also.

 

Welcome to the Ravenspire. You’ll find us to have some excellent hobbyist (not me so much) with an eye on the competitive meta without being married to it. ;)

 

My personal goal is to have an army I can take to AdeptiCon21 and when half my games. I’m also a DIY snowflake who refuses to budge out of Primaris so any advice you ever see from me, please keep that context in mind. There are optimal combos like Veteran Vanguard I just don’t even consider. *shrug*

 

I would be interested in seeing a list from you without giving any thought to the HQs. This is for a few reasons. If your army can “play” without HQs then when you lose them you won’t feel crippled like some armies do when that happens. I think it’s also important to have a army wide game plan of having units providing redundancy and support for achieving objectives that the HQs act more as force multipliers than key achievers.

 

How do you plan on protecting your backfield?

How do you plan on attacking and holding the midfield?

Do you have a plan for grabbing objectives in you opponents deployment zone?

 

These are the question foremost in my head when I look at a board and my opponents army. It’s how I decided to build the list that I have. As a Primaris only player, it’s the reason I’m blessed by the Emperor to be such a fan of Corax. Without Strike from the Shadows I would have to depend Inceptors and Impulsors to do some of the things I need to do to play the style (semi-aggressive) I play. Phobos units are great for the midfield game, but they don’t have the hitting power you need all on their own. Being able to deep strike Intercessors and Aggressors (read as Centurions for Firstborn players:)) I could never threaten an opponents backfield without spending way too points on Inceptors.

 

Wow I can ramble when it comes to approaching the process of army building. Long winded way of saying what units do you want to use and how do you plan on using them lol. I suggest this approach because in my opinion once you e answered that question then the HQ choices come down to what buffs your workhorse units best. Hint: first answer is always at least one Chaplain in current meta ;)

 

 

Again welcome to Ravenspire

[WAR]

 

 

Who refuses to budge out of Primaris so any advice you ever see from me, please keep that context in mind. There are optimal combos like Veteran Vanguard I just don’t even consider. *shrug*

 

 

But what about the 10th Scout Company......everyone wants scouts as their troop choice  

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

 

 

Who refuses to budge out of Primaris so any advice you ever see from me, please keep that context in mind. There are optimal combos like Veteran Vanguard I just don’t even consider. *shrug*

 

 

But what about the 10th Scout Company......everyone wants scouts as their troop choice  

 

But inceptors and infiltrators are better scouts. By the way, I did not realize how ludicrously big primaris marines are... I love it.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So, regarding the Murderwings - 

 

I'm looking at a captain with the Ravens Fury jumppack, hero of the chapter to unlock Shadowmaster (no overwatch), and I'm getting close to what's mentioned here at 143pts, but only four attacks with the Thunder Hammer.  Is there something I'm missing to get it to five?

 

Thanks.

Shrike is objectively better murderwings. He gets the same mortal wound on a unit within 1" that raven's fury grants, plus he's getting 7 attacks on the charge, and he has some ranged ability so he can strip wounds before he gets to combat.

[WAR]

I need to repaint my scouts and get working on the vanguard force for the 10th

[Dracos]

It "seems" Scouts are still going to be a thing, even in an all Primaris Chapter so, if Scouts were true-scale then I'd be using them instead of Incursors, but they're not so yeah I'm a snowflake.

 

Shrike is absolutely better than a generic Murderwings, even using all the RG to play with. I bought a model because I thought it looked cool. It doesn't mean it's a good choice for Lukoi though. That will depend on how he wants to play and build his army as a whole. I didn't want to go into it yet, because ... overload ... I think we need to also have an idea of what Stratagems and Chapter Tactics might work best with his play style and preferred units before deciding on a Warlord and support characters.

 

He wasn't kidding when saying "soooo many things to keep track of". Balancing the use of the Strats, Traits, and Tactics requires a lot of mental juggling to find combinations that work best for anyone. I'm a proponent of KISS, mainly because its too easy to forget things. It's why I spend almost all my CP before the game begins. If I have 4 or 5 CP to play with I'm good. Everything is baked into the army list and how it plays. i.e. Strike from the Shadows, Master of Sanctity, Token of Brotherhood, etc.

 

For instance my own personal waffle is Haywire Mines. I'm using Incursors, that's rock solid. (Unless they truescale Scouts of course lol), and I wouldn't even think about the Haywire Mines if I wasn't playing a Raven Guard Successor. Situational D3 mortal wounds for 10 points, meh, maybe but no. As a Raven Guard Successor though I have access to A Deadly Prize. Suddenly taking that Objective out of the Incursors (and Phobos Captain) hands just became a harder decision for your opponent. Hordes could be an issue but good fire support from your backfield units and screening with the Incursors can mitigate that. I live with that considering it's not exactly a horde meta anymore. With on average 4 to 5 mortal wounds, anything else that steps into that combination is really going to pay a price, that makes the 10 points for the Haywire Mine worth it ... I think.    Covid Lockdown hit before I could test this on the table e few times. 

[Lukoi]

Appreciate all of the comments all.

 

Part of my problem here is wanting to "have the cake, and eat it too," in that I wanted a Battle Rites issuing captain that could still function as a hammer, but that might just be being greedy at this point.  Yes, it can do it, but at a smidge of combat value that Shrike seems to have an advantage in.  And really, the Battle Rites issue revolved around some things I wanted to do with infiltrators and comms array.  As you guys shine a light on things, I'm seeing that as being a bit situational/gimmicky and not something I need to base my future Army on.

 

I'm knee deep in priming, painting (albeit terribly), and sprue cutting as these comments trickle in, so it's been a fun read between batreps and teleworking.  That being said, my Army list isn't really ready for review yet I don't think, but I'd narrowed it down to one of three general types, hoping to take advantage of Master of Ambush, shadow step, infiltrators in general.

 

In broad terms, they were (you'll see the theme/commonalities):

 

A 2xBN+SH:

Shrike

Phobos Librarian

Infil x10 with comms

Intercess x5 with stalker

Intercess x 5

 

Phobos LT w/ Ex Tenebris

Primaris Chaplain

Intercessors x 5

2 x 5 scout teams

 

Smash Captain, warlord

Repulsor Executioner (for anti tank/knight at range in support of the Smash)

Redemptor Dread

3 man eliminator

Centurion Devastator Squad

 

leaving me 8-9 CP at game time

-----------------------------------------------------------

Smash Captain with Chapter Master in a Successor Brigade

Phobos Librarian

Phobos LT with Ex Tenebris

Primaris Chaplain

 

Infil x 10 w/ comms

2 x Intercessors of 5

3 x scouts of 5

 

Agressors x 3

Redemptor Dread

Vanguard Vet Squad

 

Attack bike soloists x 2

Inceptors (rule of cool! They look wicked, and I dig what they can do)

 

Eliminators x 2

Repulsor Executioner

 

Sitting on 9 CP at start I believe, as it takes extra CP to make the chapter master

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

or 2 BN+SH again

 

Smash Captain

Phobos Lib

Infil x 10 w/ comms

2 x 5 Intercessors 

 

Phobos LT and Primaris Chaplain

9 x Intercessors with auto bolts and probably Vets

2 x scouts of 5

 

Techmarine (HQ slot)

Elim x 2 teams

Repulsor Executioner

 

Interceptor x3

Aggressor x 3

Red Dread.

 

Also leaving 9 CP to start the game with, generally speaking.

-----------------------------------

 

As you can see, they are excruciatingly similar, I'm just trying to squeeze the right synergy out of the group, but not tailoring to any specific type of opponent.  Enough AT to deal with Knights between the Repulsor and a CPT, some board control with Phobos and the buffs to help the bolter firepower given that turns two and 3 are in tactical doctrine (and to hopefully maximize use of the RG doctrine).

 

I'm not adverse to dropping the Repulsor entirely, and looking at more Centurion type units, Tactical War suits or frankly anything, but  wanted to try a variation of this list out once I sorted my Captains issues out.  I don't mind losing, learning, and adjusting as I go (especially since the sting of purchasing new models gets spread out that way hahahah).  Heck, I've already got a rash of Hellblasters to paint that I don't even have in the list at this point

Edited May 19, 2020 by Lukoi

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

It "seems" Scouts are still going to be a thing, even in an all Primaris Chapter so, if Scouts were true-scale then I'd be using them instead of Incursors, but they're not so yeah I'm a snowflake.

Yeah, I'm making use of them. I even have marinelets in my jump pack guys. Some things just aren't going away until there's a primaris replacement for them. Bikers will still be a thing, until primaris bikers get released, and assault marines will persist until we see a melee focused primaris jet pack unit. Inceptors are kinda there, but not really. Scouts are just super cheap and decent for their cost, I hope we get to keep them as a unit but just get a truescale kit.

 

 

Shrike is absolutely better than a generic Murderwings, even using all the RG to play with. I bought a model because I thought it looked cool. It doesn't mean it's a good choice for Lukoi though. That will depend on how he wants to play and build his army as a whole. I didn't want to go into it yet, because ... overload ... I think we need to also have an idea of what Stratagems and Chapter Tactics might work best with his play style and preferred units before deciding on a Warlord and support characters.

Fair enough. Shrike is absolutely wasted if you're not bringing Phobos guys, Inceptors, or Assault/Vanguard Vet Marinelets. Also, an auxiliary smash captain is pretty necessary if you're going to use shrike, because the Smash Captain can solo a knight in two rounds of combat provided his 3++ does work, while Shrike is a blender if you get him into CC with heavy infantry.

 

 

He wasn't kidding when saying "soooo many things to keep track of". Balancing the use of the Strats, Traits, and Tactics requires a lot of mental juggling to find combinations that work best for anyone. I'm a proponent of KISS, mainly because its too easy to forget things. It's why I spend almost all my CP before the game begins. If I have 4 or 5 CP to play with I'm good. Everything is baked into the army list and how it plays. i.e. Strike from the Shadows, Master of Sanctity, Token of Brotherhood, etc.

I'm kinda trying to do the same thing. I want my strategems to be baked into how the list plays, with a couple of CP left over for some tactical flexibility. Hero of the Chapter seems like a cool strategem, because you can get some tactical versatility out of it, if you're like me and want to run a mix of primaris stuff.

 

 

For instance my own personal waffle is Haywire Mines. I'm using Incursors, that's rock solid. (Unless they truescale Scouts of course lol), and I wouldn't even think about the Haywire Mines if I wasn't playing a Raven Guard Successor. Situational D3 mortal wounds for 10 points, meh, maybe but no. As a Raven Guard Successor though I have access to A Deadly Prize. Suddenly taking that Objective out of the Incursors (and Phobos Captain) hands just became a harder decision for your opponent. Hordes could be an issue but good fire support from your backfield units and screening with the Incursors can mitigate that. I live with that considering it's not exactly a horde meta anymore. With on average 4 to 5 mortal wounds, anything else that steps into that combination is really going to pay a price, that makes the 10 points for the Haywire Mine worth it ... I think.    Covid Lockdown hit before I could test this on the table e few times. 

Haywire mines seem ok. Take them if you've got the points for them, but I'm finding that I don't include them in my lists anymore. that's 20pts I could spend on other stuff. I can see hordes being really tough to deal with as a small elite army (which space marines are). Haywire is really more geared towards disabling any vehicle that's going to charge you (Walkers).

 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Ive played shrike in every game I've had since the supplement came out and here are a few observations.

 

1. Dont overthink it.  His chapter master aura for 0cp and 130 points is worth it alone.  If you arent sure what to do with him then just stand near whatever you want to be most accurate.  Leviathan dread anyone?

 

2.  He is a superb objective grabber.  He doesnt look it but Shrike is particularly good at putting pressure on backfield objectives.  The sort of objectives that often have 5 scouts or CSMs sitting on.  The sorts of targets that shrike will wipeout easily.  His 14" movement combined with Strike of the Skies gives him a reliable 18-20" threat radius for charges.  

 

3.  His shooting psyches people out.  Blackout is mediocre, low output, unimpressive... until it isn't.  Then you put you 2 mortal wounds on a critical support character and they fail a save.  Then they get charged.   Just keep shooting, you should kill something good in in turns 2-5.   

 

4.  Hes not a beatstick.  Do not charge Abaddon, RG, Calgar, Typhus or something similiar.  This ends badly most of the time.  

[BadgersinHills]

 

 

So, regarding the Murderwings - 

 

I'm looking at a captain with the Ravens Fury jumppack, hero of the chapter to unlock Shadowmaster (no overwatch), and I'm getting close to what's mentioned here at 143pts, but only four attacks with the Thunder Hammer.  Is there something I'm missing to get it to five?

 

Thanks.

 

Is that 4 including Shock Assault? 

 

Glad to have you here. Not a Codex Marines player but I do like the Raven Guard. Hope you have fun here mate.  

 

 

Thanks and no, I failed to remember that one! Man, soooo many things to keep track of lol.

 

 

Valerian has put up a really nice guide to organising for games. He wrote it for Space Wolves but it's applicable to any army. Playing competitively, forgetting rules really isn't fun but neither is flipping through the Codex every five minutes, so a binder might help in that regard.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/363906-how-i-organize-for-battle/

[Lukoi]

Thanks and to your point about keeping up with things, I intend to use a small script for each turn.  Basically a little flip book of 6 small pages that remind me when doctrines change, which buffs I should be remembering  (like shock assault) etc.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

The biggest thing is to just play the game. The more you play, the more you'll remember. Obviously keeping the most current rules errata and such is important, but it'll become less vital the more you play.

 

I've been spoiled by Warlord Games, who really don't publish huge errata bombs with sweeping rules changes. WH40k is a dumpster fire of sweeping updates, nerf bat nonsense, and tournament meta crap. Unfortunately, the tournament players ruin it for us casuals, and tournament lists are over the top cheesy BS. Which is why Bolt Action is my tournament game of choice.

 

Still, 40k is a fun game, and if tournament play is your thing, go for it.

[Riddlesworth]

In case it influences your decision any, the chapter master upgrade does not work with comms relay. So you'll only ever be re-rolling 1s

[Lukoi]

In case it influences your decision any, the chapter master upgrade does not work with comms relay. So you'll only ever be re-rolling 1s

It absolutely did Riddlesworth, thanks.  I asked a similar question about the chapter master upgrade and comms array on a reddit site and got educated on my oversight there.

 

As much as I want to use infiltrators with comms array to steal an objective with a bit of buffs via the phobos captain, it's become clear to me that such is a very situational thing and not worth building my Army around.  Now, rather than a phobos CPT being on the board to buff infiltrators at a distance (and then largely just buff whatever's within 6" and plink away for a bit), I'm seriously considering whether I want to run both a smash captain, and Shrike routine, with the infiltrators simply getting LT buffs when split out from the buff bubble.

[Riddlesworth]

As much as I want to use infiltrators with comms array to steal an objective with a bit of buffs via the phobos captain, it's become clear to me that such is a very situational thing and not worth building my Army around.  Now, rather than a phobos CPT being on the board to buff infiltrators at a distance (and then largely just buff whatever's within 6" and plink away for a bit), I'm seriously considering whether I want to run both a smash captain, and Shrike routine, with the infiltrators simply getting LT buffs when split out from the buff bubble.

I cant really comment tbf. I use bolter fusilades so I don't have to worry about captain buff bubbles

#leadfarmer