True Line of Sight Issues

[CommodusXIII]

Don't TLOS rules typically exclude banners, horns, weapons, and other projecting parts of a model? I don't think I'd call a shot on a model just because a banner was poking up over a wall.

[Ishagu]

Don't TLOS rules typically exclude banners, horns, weapons, and other projecting parts of a model? I don't think I'd call a shot on a model just because a banner was poking up over a wall.

Not in this edition. True line of sight is from any part of the model. Whilst some players might not like this, it's actually very simple, straightforward and fair.

 

What can be done, as a reasonable exception, is a discussion prior to a game if you have added a banner to a model that doesn't normally have one. You can agree with your opponent that the line of sight can only be drawn to parts of the model that would have been visible prior to adding the banner.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

TLOS is so bad right now and should be addressed... lots and lots of badfeelsies for sure .

[Ishagu]

I kind of agree and also don't. It's so easy and straightforward, imo, even if people aren't happy because it's difficult to hide models.

 

Recently my local group has put in huge efforts into terrain. I myself own a dense set of buildings with ample hiding spots, asymmetric like of sight, etc.

 

LoS has simply not been an issue for me, at all in recent, local games. 90% of gaming tables I see in the wild have a shortcoming of terrain, either in density or functionality/utility. I recognise the problem - it's expensive AND difficult AND time consuming to put together quality terrain, especially if you want it to look good.

We have to be honest about one thing in this hobby. People rarely invest the same effort into their terrain as they do their armies...

 

I hated how in past editions where random parts of model didn't count for LoS. Perhaps the dreaded Daemon Prince spam list of past editions wouldn't have been as horrible if you could target a few more of the models.

And if wings didn't count, what about booster engines on the side of tau kits, etc? It was messy... Remember when the Heldrake wings couldn't be used to draw line of sight? Ugh

Edited May 18, 2020 by Ishagu

[MegaVolt87]

 

Honestly, I think True Line of Sight killed the back banner and GW just followed suit to match the demands of their customer base.

 

Very much this I think. I still add back banners onto my commanders of note, but TLOS still preys on my mind when building rank and file Tacticals and such so I never add it onto Sergeants.

 

Cambrius

 

 

Yet CSM icon bearers and to a lesser extent the SM company banner bearer still suffer from TLOS, though we lose a cool part from the kits anyway. Banners are a luxury sure, but their disappearance is still annoying for me, I like them regardless. 

[Gederas]

Regarding LoS: I just do games where we go by Necromunda's rules for LoS. So, only the model's actual body counts. Weapons, upraised arms, banners or impressive hairdos don't count for LoS

 

Makes the game much better

[CommodusXIII]

Yeah, I guess my circles are still old school that way.  I also play mostly Apocalpyse these days, so LOS isn't really a concern.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I kind of agree and also don't. It's so easy and straightforward, imo, even if people aren't happy because it's difficult to hide models.

 

Recently my local group has put in huge efforts into terrain. I myself own a dense set of buildings with ample hiding spots, asymmetric like of sight, etc.

 

LoS has simply not been an issue for me, at all in recent, local games. 90% of gaming tables I see in the wild have a shortcoming of terrain, either in density or functionality/utility. I recognise the problem - it's expensive AND difficult AND time consuming to put together quality terrain, especially if you want it to look good.

We have to be honest about one thing in this hobby. People rarely invest the same effort into their terrain as they do their armies...

 

I hated how in past editions where random parts of model didn't count for LoS. Perhaps the dreaded Daemon Prince spam list of past editions wouldn't have been as horrible if you could target a few more of the models.

And if wings didn't count, what about booster engines on the side of tau kits, etc? It was messy... Remember when the Heldrake wings couldn't be used to draw line of sight? Ugh

 

I’ve had several competitive games where opponents flat out declared they could just see a tip of a model in a unit well hidden behinds walls... one guy was so bad that after three impartial observers checked and told him no he said "it’s so close can we d6 it?" I said no. On top of that he was proxying scouts as Devs and was trying to claim he could obtain LOS from the tip of an outstretched chainsword... :(  All of these experiences took up a lot of time and were absolutely no fun at all.

[Ishagu]

I think that's more an issue of bad sports. I've had many such instances occur in this edition, and in prior ones. It's actually much better now because in the past what counted as visible was up for debate, at least now it's a more binary issue... Edited May 19, 2020 by Ishagu

[TheTrans]

I was playing a doubles match and a bro was trying to shoot my partners guard command squad through a small gap on a weird angle from and aegis lines gun slit on a hill, from the hear hull of a tank... only part he could see was the tip of the banner and was not going to let it lie.. my partner looked him in the eye as he snapped the banner dudes arm off and said..'there, can't see him now?'. Dude then tried arguing it was bad sports that he removed the banner... 

 

That is the issue with TLOS as it stands. Your hobby is limited if you don't want to get spanked in game. 40k has always needed a 'silhouette' system like Infinity ever since it went to the naff, spazz on the table TLOS crap. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think that's more an issue of bad sports. I've had many such instances occur in this edition, and in prior ones. It's actually much better now because in the past what counted as visible was up for debate, at least now it's a more binary issue...

Ishagus,Rules should be designed to completely avoid these types of bad gaming situations... seriously bruvha .

[Sgt.Sangha]

I dont know if this was already mentioned before bit the space wolves kit contains back banners and in 8th edition grey hunter squads can still take 1 back banner  for 10 points, it lets you reroll any 1 on an advance or charge. So i guess in that situation as the current rules stand Id allow my opponent to draw line of site to it since the banner has an in game effect. But in any other marine army id just say ignore it, simply as apart of good sportsmanship. 

Infact thats how I would suggest it should be played, does it have an in game effect? no? then ignore it. if it does have an in game effect then it is fair game. I should mention that in future editions i think it should be ignored completely  in game effect or not since its not a body part. 

thats just my 2 cents 

[Lucerne]

Shooting a model's pinkie is ridiculous, and back banners are a nice bit of loyalist bling- I remember them from DOW2 quite fondly. The "any part of the model's body" rule seems to be the least unfun way to handle things.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Lucerne

[Panzer]

I was playing a doubles match and a bro was trying to shoot my partners guard command squad through a small gap on a weird angle from and aegis lines gun slit on a hill, from the hear hull of a tank... only part he could see was the tip of the banner and was not going to let it lie.. my partner looked him in the eye as he snapped the banner dudes arm off and said..'there, can't see him now?'. Dude then tried arguing it was bad sports that he removed the banner... 

 

That is the issue with TLOS as it stands. Your hobby is limited if you don't want to get spanked in game. 40k has always needed a 'silhouette' system like Infinity ever since it went to the naff, spazz on the table TLOS crap. 

 

Honestly, that's kinda ridiculous from both sides and would be unfun regardless. In such situations it's best to simply throw a dice and say on a 4+ LoS blocked.

[Ishagu]

Things like this need to be discussed prior to the game.

Also it's worth remembering that this GAME is not worth having an argument over, especially in a casual setting away from a tournament.

 

The main objective is to have fun, and all parties involved in the game need to do their best to facilitate this. Yes, we all want to win, but it doesn't take precedence over everything else.

[Xenith]

 

I’ve had several competitive games where opponents flat out declared they could just see a tip of a model in a unit well hidden behinds walls... one guy was so bad that after three impartial observers checked and told him no he said "it’s so close can we d6 it?" I said no. On top of that he was proxying scouts as Devs and was trying to claim he could obtain LOS from the tip of an outstretched chainsword...  All of these experiences took up a lot of time and were absolutely no fun at all.

 

That's a player issue, not a rules issue. A player trying to pull that will try to bend/break whatever rules exist, no matter how 'tight' the ruleset. The only thing to keep that in check is social license. If people stop playing him due to that behaviour, the behaviour should change. 

 

 

 

 he...was not going to let it lie.. 

 

Honestly, that's kinda ridiculous from both sides and would be unfun regardless. In such situations it's best to simply throw a dice and say on a 4+ LoS blocked.

 

 

Panzer, that assumes a stable, rational opponent. The comment above suggests he was not. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Xenith

[Panzer]

 

 

 he...was not going to let it lie.. 

 

Honestly, that's kinda ridiculous from both sides and would be unfun regardless. In such situations it's best to simply throw a dice and say on a 4+ LoS blocked.

 

 

Panzer, that assumes a stable, rational opponent. The comment above suggests he was not. 

 

 

Sad but very true.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

I’ve had several competitive games where opponents flat out declared they could just see a tip of a model in a unit well hidden behinds walls... one guy was so bad that after three impartial observers checked and told him no he said "it’s so close can we d6 it?" I said no. On top of that he was proxying scouts as Devs and was trying to claim he could obtain LOS from the tip of an outstretched chainsword...  All of these experiences took up a lot of time and were absolutely no fun at all.

 

That's a player issue, not a rules issue. A player trying to pull that will try to bend/break whatever rules exist, no matter how 'tight' the ruleset. The only thing to keep that in check is social license. If people stop playing him due to that behaviour, the behaviour should change. 

 

 

 

 he...was not going to let it lie.. 

 

Honestly, that's kinda ridiculous from both sides and would be unfun regardless. In such situations it's best to simply throw a dice and say on a 4+ LoS blocked.

 

 

Panzer, that assumes a stable, rational opponent. The comment above suggests he was not. 

 

if the rules for LOS were tighter it would never come up. Just like arguments caused by scatter and how many enemy models are under a template went away.

[BitsHammer]

Scatter was a problem for decades. Even if you there the die next to the target it could still bounce off somewhere leading to people arguing if they matched the angle or not.

 

Honestly, while the new system doesn't let you scatter into the opponent's army (or your own) it's faster, easier and means horde players don't spend ten minutes every movement phase spacing their models back out.

[Ishagu]

To be fair I've had players argue with me over weapon ranges. I had a unit just within 24", he claimed it was just out.

 

I think we would all agree that weapon range is a pretty tight rule, but yes, people can argue this as well.

 

It's an analogue game, and people need I get along and show some empathy of they want it to function correctly.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve never had that issue but hear players complain about LOS a lot... in fact it’s commonly predicted to be addressed in the upcoming edition.

[Xenith]

I’ve never had that issue but hear players complain about LOS a lot... in fact it’s commonly predicted to be addressed in the upcoming edition.

 

And if it is, that guy will just bend the rules on something else. 

 

I'm in favour of going back to a 3rd ed abstract LOS ruleset. It works much better with the game, considering the terrain itself is abstract.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The less he can bend the better .

[Rogue]

I quite like true line of sight. It seems the simplest way to do things. Can model A see model B? If yes, it can shoot it. If no, it can't. Easy.

 

Rather than going back to a more abstract system, I'd prefer to add the condition that only certain parts of a model (torso, limbs, head and wings, for example) could be targeted. Extraneous items such as back banners, swirly psychic effects and weapons can't be shot at, neither can they be used to shoot from.

 

It how my group have played it for as long as I can remember. In fact, people tend to err on the side of 'I can only see his toes, so let's say he's out of sight' - I'm fortunate that I have a very good group of friends to play against, so this might all be too casual to work in a more serious environment.

[BitsHammer]

It's a clean system but it needs a caveat like "if any part of the model is obscured they get a cover save" to clean up the competetive side of things. You know, like Kill Team does.