New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[emperorpants]

Hey guys, with the current news, how do you think it will affect us? The new models seem awesome, but I'm not sure how they will be helpful with our special rules. Our chapter tactic will be useless on melee only models, as will our doctrine. Can't help but feel a little unexcited for the melee models for that reason, as we will likely have one of the weaker versions of them. It's awesome that they exist, just wish we had more rules to take advantage of them! Oh well, it's still cool that they are coming out. :)

 

Also, a rule preview said that all tanks will be able to shoot when in melee now....so what does that mean for us? Seems our chapter tactic is going to get a bit redundant. Any chance we will get something else to compensate?

 

All that said, the melta primaris seem awesome, as do the bikes. Both of those will make use of our rules quite well. Bikes double tapping with the 2 bolters at full range even after moving? With chainswords? Yes please!

 

Hmm. Musing further, will the new way that command points work be an even further nerf to Guilliman? You have to spend cp to unlock detachments, so to get a super heavy auxiliary.... *sigh* I really hope there won't be a command point requirement to take Guilliman. He's been nerfed enough. He's actually not competitive at all anymore, and actually kinda sucks for his cost. To pile a cp tax on top of that....yeah.

 

On the flip side, they are changing points across the board, so maybe he will get cheaper. Also, perhaps in the new edition they will change how things are organized and you will be able to include lords of war in battalions or whatever they are using for organization. I hope this is the case.

Edited May 23, 2020 by emperorpants

[Subtleknife]

I do hope we get something a bit different now that the CT is invalidated. Are thos victrix guard strats from a few books back in 8th still valid. If so will any of them work with these melee primaris? I cant help feel that whilst these units are great they dont have a great delivery mechanism. I would really like if primaris could use drop pods

[emperorpants]

I do hope we get something a bit different now that the CT is invalidated. Are thos victrix guard strats from a few books back in 8th still valid. If so will any of them work with these melee primaris? I cant help feel that whilst these units are great they dont have a great delivery mechanism. I would really like if primaris could use drop pods

Yeah, our CT is really going to be close to worthless in 9th. On top of that, as I just edited into my opening post, there is a good chance that in addition to the other nerfs to Guilliman there could possibly be a cp tax to use him.

Edited May 23, 2020 by emperorpants

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Guilliman is a total beast and less points now.

 

Why has our CT been invalidated ? :D

[Subtleknife]

I mean the part specifically applying to vehicles. Of course the other parts still work but it does take quite a bit from Ultras extra rules. We should be given something to make up for this imo. Will we....probably not.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I never use any vehicles so why should l even care ?

[Subtleknife]

Last time I checked it wasnt just you playing the game.... Edited May 23, 2020 by Subtleknife

[emperorpants]

Guilliman is outclassed in melee usually by smash captains, and his aura is no better than a chapter master and Lt. All of which are much cheaper and fill HQ slots. Guilliman can't ride vehicles, can't be healed by apothecaries, can't enter ruins, etc. He DOES NOT warrant a cp tax. All of his strengths can be found elsewhere for cheaper. He is not worth his points cost. A good melee profile isn't worth the trade off of all his weaknesses.

 

One of the best things about CT applying to the whole army is the fact that our vehicles couldn't be tied up. Now that vehicles can't be tied up for everyone, we have lost rules in comparison to everyone else. So our CT has gotten worse by a fairly significant margin. Just compare our CT to every other chapter. What do we get in comparison to say Sallys, RG, IF, etc? Our infantry can fall back and shoot. At -1. Yippee.

 

I'm not trying to be disrespectful blackblowfly, but you not playing vehicles is not a valid response. That is like saying "Its ok that army x sucks, I don't play them."

 

I don't want this to turn into a big thing Fly, so we can agree to disagree.

[War Angel]

So, the tank thing says that they can still fire while in close combat. It doesn’t say they can pull out of combat, or shoot into combat. Still has uses.

 

Why would they be giving gulliman a CP tax?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Most of the things you noted about Guilliman has always been that way like riding in a vehicle... and sorry I don’t see GeeDub ever making a ride for him. He can do far more damage than a smash Captain ever could. I’ve got a bunch of friends who would love to have a Primarch for their Chapters. Is so silly to say he’s trash I almost think your trolling here. Seriously you never have anything good to say.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[emperorpants]

Most of the things you noted about Guilliman has always been that way like riding in a vehicle... and sorry I don’t see GeeDub ever making a ride for him. :D He can do far more damage than a smash Captain ever could. I’ve got a bunch of friends who would love to have a Primarch for their Chapters. Is so silly to say he’s trash I almost think your trolling here. Seriously you never have anything good to say.

Really? Cuz I've made numerous positive threads. You've posted in them. I've said several positive things in this thread. We are allowed to make observations about Ultras that aren't glowing. It's ok to call out things that are negative. I know you don't like to hear it, but neither GW nor Ultrras are perfect, and it's ok to call those things out. Those things will never improve if we pretend they don't exist. I honestly mean no disrespect, as I feel that we have been getting along fine for awhile now, and I don't wish for that to change.

 

As far as Guilliman is concerned, those things I listed about Guilliman were offset when he had his old re roll all wounds aura. They are more pronounced now that his aura is nerfed. They can no longer be looked past as his positives no longer outweigh them.

[emperorpants]

So, the tank thing says that they can still fire while in close combat. It doesn’t say they can pull out of combat, or shoot into combat. Still has uses.

Why would they be giving gulliman a CP tax?

Ultras can't shoot into combat either, so I'm not sure why you brought that up. Also, falling out of combat and shooting is functionally very similar to shooting while in combat. Falling out and shooting with our CT is actually going to be worse usually due to being negative 1 to hit when shooting after falling back. Again, compare our CT to literally any other CT now. It's not even close.

 

Guilliman getting a cp tax is reasonable speculation due to additional detachments, such as super heavy aux, costing cp in 9th. Its a tax that all lords of war might get.

[War Angel]

So what I mean is, if an imperial fist tank is in close combat, no one else can shoot the unit in close combat with it, and the tank can’t shoot the models in close combat with it. The tank can now shoot other units, but the unit assaulting it is protected.

 

Ultramarine tanks can now do the same thing, but they can also back out of combat and still shoot.

 

The new rules do not allow other tanks to fall back and shoot, (unless they already had that) so there’s still some benefits.

[emperorpants]

So what I mean is, if an imperial fist tank is in close combat, no one else can shoot the unit in close combat with it, and the tank can’t shoot the models in close combat with it. The tank can now shoot other units, but the unit assaulting it is protected.

Ultramarine tanks can now do the same thing, but they can also back out of combat and still shoot.

The new rules do not allow other tanks to fall back and shoot, (unless they already had that) so there’s still some benefits.

Ok, I get what you are saying. My point isn't that there is literally no use for our CT, my point is that its use has been diminished rather greatly, and pales SIGNIFICANTLY when compared to other chapters now. One of our strengths was we couldn't have our vehicle's shooting taken away. Now the same can be said of every army in the game.

[War Angel]

Ultramarines still do it better, if a little less “all encompassing”. And how many tanks are you taking in games anayway? It’s more for the troops than anything else.

 

Would you rather them completely take away the chapter tactic? It doesn’t really fit the “tactical follow the book” theme anyway.

I feel bad for raven guard though. There’s does nothing for their tanks.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

ec you over exaggerate the things you perceive as nerfs, and they are just your opinions not fact.

 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[emperorpants]

Ultramarines still do it better, if a little less “all encompassing”. And how many tanks are you taking in games anayway? It’s more for the troops than anything else.

Would you rather them completely take away the chapter tactic? It doesn’t really fit the “tactical follow the book” theme anyway.I feel bad for raven guard though. There’s does nothing for their tanks.

If it's all vehicles, which it seems it might be, then it affects dreadnoughts too. It's a bigger hit then it first seems.

 

At this point, maybe scrapping it for something else would be the best. I think even just giving it a minor buff would be fine, like granting all Ultras an extra 3 inch in range to shooting. I mean, again, just compare our CT to literally any other CT. Can you honestly and truly say ours is even close?

[emperorpants]

ec you over exaggerate the things you perceive as nerfs, and they are just your opinions not fact.

 

Things I "perceive" as nerfs and are only opinions? Ok, answer some things for me.

 

- Is Guillimans aura better now, or worse?

- Is Our CT better with this change or worse in comparison to other armies?

-If Guilliman now requires a cp tax, is that helpful or hurtful to Ultras?

 

Honesty I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are just trolling by claiming those things aren't objectively nerfs. Again, I mean no disrespect, but come on.

[War Angel]

Ultramarines aren’t known for being better at shooting. It would have to be something different.

 

It still provides a tactical option.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

ec you’re making a lot of baseless assumptions.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Captain Idaho]

It's all a little early to know really. We'll see what is happening soon enough.

 

If close combat is more viable in the new edition, be it because it's more decisive or more likely the terrain rules means we can actually make it into combat, then I think the combined arms, traditional Ultramarine methodologies will come to the fore and we should do well.

 

Having Shock Assault helps all Marines, of course, but getting up close deliberately looks to be a viable option by the way GW has talked about it.

 

 

Old favourites having a new lease on life due to better terrain could make, say a unit of Terminators who can drop down and not be shot by an entire army any more, a decent take.

 

It's stuff like that I'm looking for, as well as the ability to take 1st Company lists without Command Point penalties (i.e. less) that are really appealing to me.

 

Our rules in the Ultramarines Supplement are solid and it's likely made with the latest edition in mind. Having an all comers approach will be my go to I believe, though of course this might change.

[Emurian]

Assuming his assumptions regarding the nerfs are true, why are you so upset about it? It wont take long before GW pushed out a new space marine codex and supplements. 

[Captain Idaho]

I was thinking a big demi-God leading his own super sized warriors amongst his more diminutive men would actually work for me as it's very Greco-Roman which is what the Ultramarines are all about.

 

We could see Idaho finally finding Primaris models that fit the theme of his army without making them look at odds with each other.

 

Shock face.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wow that’s super cool to hear !

[Ishagu]

I think they might rework the detachments in 9th. A Battalion should have a LoW slot. Might give Guilliman a small boost.

 

He needs to be a HQ, especially as the new Ghaz is a HQ.