New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Lol some people right ? ;)

[Kallas]

(1) - They could very easily drop to "Why bother taking them when much better and more unique chapters exist?" Tier though. That is what I don't want to see.

(2) - Again, all that said, I've grown more confident that GW will do something to address Guilliman, and quite possibly our super doctrine upon 9ths launch. Our chapter tactic will probably remain as is though. Just a gut feeling that.

 

(1) - As a purely competitive concern, sure. But that's kind of the thing, the game doesn't ever seem to handle pure competitiveness well. At the end of the day, there are, what, nine different Chapters (ten, if you include Grey Knights; and eleven if you include Deathwatch) that are all in the same Marine group. There will always be one "Best," and when you have ten others competing it becomes unlikely that any given one will become it.

 

One will be the "Best" but ultimately that's something that isn't worth stressing about. If your main faction (Marines) are reasonably competitive then that's all you can really ask for. 

 

(2) - I agree. GW has been much, much better at dealing with stuff over the past two or so years. They haven't been perfect, and there are plenty of things they let languish in that time. But they have at least been trying.

[emperorpants]

Lol some people right ? ;)

Heh, I think we all can agree that complaining about TSK is pretty crazy. Perhaps they should check to see if the gift horse needs any dental work while they are looking so intently.

[emperorpants]

All that said guys, good talk. Glad cooler heads prevailed and we hashed that all out. Edited June 9, 2020 by emperorpants

[Paulinus]

I am curious to see what troops do. They’ve hinted they will have a purpose so saying this edition will all be about tanks might be a bit early to say. Tanks are getting better for sure. But troops might have an impact as well.

[emperorpants]

I am curious to see what troops do. They’ve hinted they will have a purpose so saying this edition will all be about tanks might be a bit early to say. Tanks are getting better for sure. But troops might have an impact as well.

Well, they are still needed to fill out brigades, battalions, etc. Which are the only detachments that give refunds if your warlord is In them. They will still be useful to save cp. They also have objective secured. Some armies might find it beneficial to forgo core detachments and pay the cp for more killy units, which is likely what they meant when they said you could bring what you want. Beyond that, not sure. Should be interesting to see.

[Ishagu]

I think there might be objectives that only troops can score - It's one way to keep them relevant.

 

Also I want to point out that for the last 3 years or more I've been one of the most positive people on the forum.

The last time I complained about rules was when the second Eldar codex in 7th edition was released and the entire book was full of D-Strength weapons lol

 

I'm allowed to be disappointed if my favourite army is adversely affected by a new set of rules. It is entirely possible that the next edition of 40k is generally very good whilst simultaneously being bad for certain armies.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Ishagu

[jaxom]

I think anyone emotionally invested in a faction and an eye on tournament-level competitiveness is going to have the ups-and-downs; very understandable.

I read through the WarCom article on tanks and there's definitely still an edge to being an Ultramarine vehicle.

 

Generic Rules for Everyone

1. VEHICLES can only make shooting attacks against targets you within Engagement Range (and we still don't have a precise definition on what that is).
2. You still declare shooting targets before resolving any shooting attacks. You are not limited to targets within Engagement Range, but you still can't break rule 1. Example: Leman Russ with 3 Heavy Flamers and a Battle Cannon declares the HF attacks on the Genestealers in its Engagement Range and the Battle Cannon against some Warriors. The Heavy Flamer attacks have to be resolved first and if any Genestealers survive then the Battle Cannon shots are wasted.
3. Shooting attacks made while Engaged have a -1 to hit roll.
4. VEHICLES (because they are not INFANTRY) do not suffer a penalty for moving and shooting Heavy weapons.

Corresponding UM Bennies

1. Can fall back and shoot at higher priority targets without having to clear out enemies in Engagement Range.
2. Don't have to worry about not getting shots off because you couldn't clear the Engagement Range first (see 1).
3. Falling back and shooting has the same penalty as staying in combat and shooting. UM have more options at the same cost compared to everyone else.
4. This one benefits Space Marines in general. The Ultramarine special-sauce still has the same great taste, but other factions also no longer have to worry about moving and shooting with vehicles on Turns 2 and 3. I think the benefit gained (can move with and support infantry on turn 1) is worth it.

Personally, I think a big winner (for Space Marines in general) is the Ironclad Dreadnought with Hurricane Bolter, Heavy Flamer+DCW/DCF, and 2 Hunter-Killer Missiles. Turn 1 in Devastator Doctrine, hide as needed, move forward and let loose the HKMs. Turn 2-3 move up while laying down 12 Str 4 AP-1 shots. Get into combat? Effective BS4+ 12 Str 4 plus D6 Str 5 AP-1 autohits in the shooting phase followed by 4 Str 12 AP-3 to AP-5 (depends on Doctrine and weapon) attacks in the combat phase. No degradation so it doesn't matter how many wounds are left.

If Land Raiders get some loving, then the Crusader could also be a really nice option now. Transport up a nice assault unit, double tapping the Hurricane Bolters in Tactical Doctrine. Get close, unload the assault unit (Centurions?), charge with the Land Raider to soak Overwatch and maybe get some MW then charge with the assault unit. Keep the LRC in combat to keep it safe from shooting and use Pile-In and Consolidate to get it where it needs to be once combat ends. Keep double tapping the Hurricane Bolters into the combat along with the Twin Assault Cannon. This could be great if you want to pin down a large tar unit of chaff to keep it from being able to counter charge the assault unit it dropped off.

 

EDIT: Just thought of this, Chronos in the LRC so you're still hitting on 3s when shooting while Engaged and the units ignore the penalty for falling back and shooting while within 6" of a big footprint model. I feel like there's something there in terms if using Pile-In/Consolidate/Fall Back to slingshot a unit around something the LRC has locked down, but I'd have to think about more.

Edited June 9, 2020 by jaxom

[Nalim]

While I agree with the opinion that giving out some "special" Ultramarines things (essentially the ignoring heavy weapons penalty thing in tactical doctrine) to all factions is a bit of a bummer, I think there are other changes that we know of that might up our power level. If what GW says is s true and LOS-blocking terrain will be common and units will have to move a lot to get into firing position, our stratagem (and, to a lesser extent, warlord trait) to reposition units after both players have deployed might get even more useful than before - shuffling around three units and forcing your opponent to choose sub-optimal targets for one or two rounds could really crush an opponents gameplan.

 

It will however only matter in (50% + 50% * 1/6) of games because if you deploy second and go second redeploying is useless.

[Ishagu]

I find that to be the general problem with most Ultras rules. They are re-active, rather than pro-active.

 

Redeploying to catch the enemy off guard is great, potentially, when the opportunity is presented in one out of every six games. This is our best Strat by a long margin, and it's not one I actually use often because I might simply be going first anyway.

Out chapter tactic is great to get us out of trouble potentially, of course it might never come into play as some armies will keep their distance or never assault you. Similar to the best Strat, it's not something you build a game plan around as a result, it's something that allows you to react a bit better to an aggressive enemy move or a mistake you've made.

 

I really liked our Doctrine because it was a pro-active bonus rule. You can now be more mobile without sacrificing accuracy; Go and get them, don't be afraid to move up! Now every army gets it on their monsters and tanks, and I literally don't run any infantry with heavy weapons that I would intend to move in 95% of games. The Doctrine would have had more value if it lasted all game. I'm more inclined to move an Eliminator unit towards turn 4/5 to mop of some small units or secure an objective. Now that we've seen how the vehicles work in 9th I actually think GW perhaps messed up by nerfing all Marine Doctrines due to how they were performing in 8th.

 

I am excited to see the new units. All of them aside from the new Melta Aggressors are close combat focused, and I'll need to see how their rules stack up. The Veterans have grown on me aesthetically.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

A lot of the top competitive tournament players are reactive - less risk oriented.

[Lord Blackwood]

 

Also I want to point out that for the last 3 years or more I've been one of the most positive people on the forum.

The last time I complained about rules was when the second Eldar codex in 7th edition was released and the entire book was full of D-Strength weapons lol

 

 

This is not true , You made quite the amount of noise in the Iron Hands Forum about their rules while comparing them to ultramarines. 

 

 

[Paulinus]

Well, another good thing is that on top of getting a CP per turn we can also use Scryers gaze to gain another one. So Ultramarines can almost guaranteed get 2 CP per turn.

 

That is a good thing.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

For sure we have good strats and can still farm.

[emperorpants]

Well, another good thing is that on top of getting a CP per turn we can also use Scryers gaze to gain another one. So Ultramarines can almost guaranteed get 2 CP per turn.

That is a good thing.

Wouldn't it be nice if they removed the 1 cp per battle round restriction? It would awesome to get cp from adept of the codex as well as scryers gaze. The one cp per battle round rule obviously won't apply to the command phase cp we get. Maybe instead of 1cp per battle round they could change it to 1cp per ability per battle round. I just really want to gain cp from adept and scryers. Lol. Edited June 10, 2020 by emperorpants

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

Also I want to point out that for the last 3 years or more I've been one of the most positive people on the forum.

The last time I complained about rules was when the second Eldar codex in 7th edition was released and the entire book was full of D-Strength weapons lol

 

 

This is not true , You made quite the amount of noise in the Iron Hands Forum about their rules while comparing them to ultramarines.

 

Lol yeah you are right actually, although it wasn't as much complaining as it was an observation of badly balanced rules within the same faction. GW and the general community widely agreed with my observation as they were ultimately toned down, but GW then went too far and nerfed all the chapters...

 

Ugh, I remember facing the Invincible Leviathan at a *friendly* game shortly after the IH book was released. 14 Las Cannons did 3 wounds lol. It reminded me of 7th edition lol

 

It should be mentioned that we aren't the only army to lose it's unique hooks. The new core rules also invalidate things like Tallarn Astra Militarum, as an example. I'm just hopeful at this point that GW will be quick to release a new set of books for every faction.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Ishagu

[Lord Blackwood]

I can speak to the AM point. 

I am for one happy that I  dont have to run my Solar Auxilia as Tallarn as  I can now flex into the more powerful additional build a regiment traits while not losing the part of Tallarn's trait  I would actually use. 

Is Tallarn still a choice you can take without feeling bad ?  Sure. 

Much like the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic and Doctrine still have value, not as much but its still there. 

[Subtleknife]

I do hope GW have rememered to alter the CP ruling otherwise wouldnt our powers which recoup CP become useless as that free CP will mean we cant gain more.

[Captain Idaho]

Our "super Doctrine" is very much useful on the table. It benefits infantry and Dreadnought mostly, in a way other Chapters can be quite jealous of.

 

Sure our other vehicles won't benefit as much but that's no big deal. Vanguard Veterans and Assault Terminators don't benefit from Iron Hands Overwatch hitting on 5s much or at all, for example. Blood Angels players don't get much out of an additional attack or +1 to wound on their Rhinos, or Storm Ravens, but if they complained about it we'd scoff at them wouldn't we ;)

 

Not every rule in an army has to benefit every model within it.

 

***

 

Yes I agree some of our rules are reactive. I would like some decisive Strategums in the future too actually. Martial Precision was a great way to get a Lascannon hit on a model with stacked multipliers but now it's an average thing at best since that doesn't exist anymore.

 

Not that I think it's bad being reactive in many ways. It's just nice to have some flavour we can utilise that is also decisive.

 

How do our dreadnoughts benefit from tactical doctrine compared to other armies? All dreadnoughts, indeed all vehicles, can do the same thing in all doctrines. They all have power of the machine spirit now basically.

I didn't stipulate our Dreads benefited from Tactical Doctrine more than others. I stated our Dreads will be brutal because... then explained how Dreadnoughts in Ultramarines armies are going to be good.

 

I even summarised we are so flexible now.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

Yeah we have a niche use of the Contemptor Dread armed with CBeam cannons, but we have to remember that the FW index is about to be updated.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the rules for many units and weapons are completely re-written or updated. I should point out that I'm actually excited about this. There are too many FW option that aren't currently viable.

[Captain Idaho]

That last post of mine is getting messy so I'll make a separate one since it deals with a new idea...

 

I've never used Tactica Expertise but I might now since we're getting more CPs in our games and it could be easier to pull off maximum carnage now we can Outflank and deliver Rhinos etc to targets with obscuring terrain.

 

What experiences have folk had in 8th with that Strategum?

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah we have a niche use of the Contemptor Dread armed with CBeam cannons, but we have to remember that the FW index is about to be updated.

I wouldn't be surprised if the rules for many units and weapons are completely re-written or updated. I should point out that I'm actually excited about this. There are too many FW option that aren't currently viable.

Dare I say it but I'd like the Relic Contemptor rules to replace the standard Contemptor rules in the next Codex. Makes little sense some are superior to others.

[Ishagu]

I think the FW index can be much improved, and I imagine that because it's written directly by the GW studio there won't be any more segregation of FW units and rules from the normal game.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Our super strat is going to be super powerful for tanks and dreadnaughts since they can just fall back and shoot... other factions still have to kill everything tagging them to fire outside of combat.

[Paulinus]

So the way blast weapons work, it seems some parts of our doctrine aren’t as useless as some would believe. Even more reason to be able to leave melee.

 

Situational but vindicator, whirlwinds, not sure but maybe Thunderfires, grav flux bombards. All things that benefit overall but have an extra capability if locked in.