New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[Ishagu]

So the way blast weapons work, it seems some parts of our doctrine aren’t as useless as some would believe. Even more reason to be able to leave melee.

 

Situational but vindicator, whirlwinds, not sure but maybe Thunderfires, grav flux bombards. All things that benefit overall but have an extra capability if locked in.

What does our doctrine do for blast templates?

Are you talking about the Chapter Tactic?

[Toxichobbit]

 

So the way blast weapons work, it seems some parts of our doctrine aren’t as useless as some would believe. Even more reason to be able to leave melee.

 

Situational but vindicator, whirlwinds, not sure but maybe Thunderfires, grav flux bombards. All things that benefit overall but have an extra capability if locked in.

What does our doctrine do for blast templates?

Are you talking about the Chapter Tactic?

 

He's talking about being able to back out of melee and fire blast weapons, where as if you stay in melee you can only fire them if you kill everything in melee with the vehicle first. So yeah, our Chapter Tactic.

Edited June 10, 2020 by Toxichobbit

[Captain Idaho]

Ha, double Grav Flux Bombards, without amendment except the Blast rule, will be horrific now! They were already pretty powerful anyway.

 

Against a 30 Strong units of Boyz, you'll get 42 shots!

 

5 Intercessors will be 12 shots!

 

Terminal.

[Paulinus]

 

 

So the way blast weapons work, it seems some parts of our doctrine aren’t as useless as some would believe. Even more reason to be able to leave melee.

Situational but vindicator, whirlwinds, not sure but maybe Thunderfires, grav flux bombards. All things that benefit overall but have an extra capability if locked in.

 

What does our doctrine do for blast templates?

Are you talking about the Chapter Tactic?

He's talking about being able to back out of melee and fire blast weapons, where as if you stay in melee you can only fire them if you kill everything in melee with the vehicle first. So yeah, our Chapter Tactic.

Sorry yeah, our chapter tactic.

[jaxom]

I find that to be the general problem with most Ultras rules. They are re-active, rather than pro-active.

 

*SNIP

 

I really liked our Doctrine because it was a pro-active bonus rule. You can now be more mobile without sacrificing accuracy; Go and get them, don't be afraid to move up! Now every army gets it on their monsters and tanks, and I literally don't run any infantry with heavy weapons that I would intend to move in 95% of games. The Doctrine would have had more value if it lasted all game. I'm more inclined to move an Eliminator unit towards turn 4/5 to mop of some small units or secure an objective. Now that we've seen how the vehicles work in 9th I actually think GW perhaps messed up by nerfing all Marine Doctrines due to how they were performing in 8th.

 

I am excited to see the new units. All of them aside from the new Melta Aggressors are close combat focused, and I'll need to see how their rules stack up. The Veterans have grown on me aesthetically.

 

 

 

 

It should be mentioned that we aren't the only army to lose it's unique hooks. The new core rules also invalidate things like Tallarn Astra Militarum, as an example. I'm just hopeful at this point that GW will be quick to release a new set of books for every faction.

 

There's no wrong way to play the game and there's no wrong way to play a faction. But, as all podcast tournament players are fond of noting whenever the crunch gets altered there are more- and less-efficient ways to play a faction. This may not always match with what designers intended; i.e. Iron Hand Air Force versus a mechanized spear head  backed up by a hard core of infantry.

 

I forget the exact person on Forge the Narrative, but he was saying when he made the decision to shoot for winning a big tournament he had to acknowledge the list design wasn't going to be about how it played, or what models was in it, but entirely about consistent winning. Even with more narrative or faction-based podcast tournament players will often exclusively focus on a very specific synergy (usually with the most point-efficient unit) and this can create a skewed perception. For example, Tallarn was the go-to for Leman Russes and everyone was talking about Tallarn Tank Commanders. The "competitive" option was shuffling the LRTC to a Command Detachment and then using a Brigade of Catachans for infantry and artillery. Many tournament players are always going to look at the pieces available and run those cost-benefit analyses to stay on the cutting edge of list design.

 

It's all the mono-faction, army-wide, benefits that tell us a lot about what an army "should" look like according to the designers; i.e. how does one maximize all the strengths when designing a list. Tallarn's not just mobile tanks, but also using Move, Move, Move! for super-mobile, elusive, infantry that can still fire with lasguns, plasma guns, and grenade launchers. Similarly, Ultramarines aren't/weren't just mobile tanks, but also mobile Rapid Fire weapon users (in contrast to White Scar mobile Assault Weapon users). It's that reason that, for me, makes UMs one of the most pro-active armies in the game. UM infantry can play the double tap game continuously at range while still maneuvering. Mobile tanks didn't make the Ultramarines special, mobility made the Ultramarines special. The Chapter Tactic can be used to lure opponents out of position, for slingshotting around a blocking unit, pinning and then releasing an enemy unit, etc. That's all on top of being Space Marines. 

 

When Combat Doctrines were first announced, I kept saying it was indication of how the designers wanted Space Marines to be played. A "classic Space Marine list" should participate in long range, short range, and melee. Specifically, Tactical Squads and Intercessors - troop choices - benefit heavily from leveraging their strengths in both range and assault. Then Super Doctrines came out and everyone hopped on the one Combat Doctrine all the time bandwagon. Then came The Errata and design commentary. And, oh look, Space Marines are meant to cycle through doctrines as they move across the board and eventually get into melee. Space Marines are acknowledged as the universal beginner army; they're meant to expose players to the entire game. Chapter Tactics gave perks to certain areas, but that doesn't mean the Codex was designed, for example, so White Scars should only take units that Charge or Salamanders should only take units with flamers and meltas. They have specific perks that promote success in those areas, but they're still meant to participate (and take units to that purpose as needed) in the other aspects of the game.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I saw today there will be new FAQs for the codex and each supplement.

[Subtleknife]

Good news. I hope they are in depth.

[emperorpants]

I saw today there will be new FAQs for the codex and each supplement.

Awesome! Fingers crossed!

[Nalim]

As of today, we know a lot more about the new units than before - I think it's time to take a first look at them from a competetive standpoint. While we don't know about points costs and special rules, most other things (for example, profile and weapon stats) can be guessed or are already known.

 

Primaris Captain:

 

This guy is equipped with a master-crafted power sword and a relic shield (a storm shield with some extra defensive ability). It's the first Primaris Captain with a built-in 3++ (good), but his weapon is rather lacklustre (a relic blade would be preferable). By giving him the relic "The Burning Blade" and the warlord trait "The Imperium's Sword" he can become a formidable killing machine. He'll most likely be preferable to both the power fist and gravis captains. Like all footslogging melee units, his main problem is that there aren't too many games in which he'll actually see melee combat and it matters. I guess we'll see him in some pure Primaris army lists, however, if you also use Oldmarines, a captain with jump pack or bike or Calgar will most likely be superior options.

 

Primaris Lieutenant:

 

Volkite Pistol (some halfway decent anti infantry weapon I'll guess), master-crafted power sword and storm shield. Thanks to the storm-shield, he's the first primaris lieutenant sporting an invulnerable save (and a nice 3++, wow). I guess we'll see him taking the spot of the old Assault Rifle or Power Sword Lieutenant if there are enough points in the list. The reason for this is his vastly increased defensive power.

 

Primaris Chaplain:

 

His equipment seems to be identical to the robed Primaris Chaplain - so this model won't change Space Marine lists in any way.

 

Judiciar:

 

Relic Blade, perhaps with some minor extra rule, most likely 4++ and some extra rule from tempormortis. A nice melee beatstick, but again, footslogging. Has the same problem like any other boots-on-the-ground melee powerhouse we have in our army: It's too hard to get him into a meaningful fight. Won't see too much competetive play I guess.

 

Bladeguard Veterans:

 

Most likely similar to Victrix Guard (3W, 3A, 2+, 3++) but without the bodyguard rule and with master crafted power swords instead of normal ones. I guess you could see some success by slingshotting (Impulsor) them right into the enemy frontlines together with 3 beatstick melee characters (for example, the new captain, lieutenant and a Chaplain or the Judiciar).

 

Bladeguard Ancient:

 

An ancient with some kind of hand relic. We don't know if this thing does anything. Since the Standard of the Emperor Ascendant was nerfed, we haven't seen these guys as much as we were used to. I don't think this will change.

 

Eradicators:

 

The gravis defensive profile (T5, 3W, 3+) is rather points efficient. Because their weapons are new, they are a wildcard atm. "Long range melta-rifles" might mean 36 inches. Now, if these weapons are also good at actually wounding big baddies (meaning str>8) they could become a new staple of Primaris armies. The Ultramarines' super-doctrine might come in handy on these guys (or they'll just ignore movement penalties anyway, we'll see).

 

Assault Intercessors:

 

The unknown factor here is the new "Astartes Chainsword". I'll guess it'll enhance the normal chainsword in one of four ways:

• -1 AP instead of 0 AP
• +1 STR instead of +0 STR
• 6+ hit rolls wound automatically
• 6+ wound roll does a mortal wound

Nothing there will see them do similar carnage point-for-point to Ork Boys or Khorne Berzerkers. And both Boys and Zerkers aren't considered very good atm. They'll be good at slaying 1W, T3 or T4 targets in melee. Marines have so many tools (secondary weapons etc.) that excel at this role anyway so I guess their skills aren't exactly needed.

 

Outriders:

 

Basically our good old bikes with +1 AP and +6 range for their bolters. M14, T5, 3W, 3+. Like the old bikes, their weapons are their downfall. It's basically troop weaponry on a fast attack unit. They might be worth it if they were troops, but that's not gonna happen. M14 to grab objectives is not as beneficial as you might think when Scouts, Incursors and Infiltrators are a thing.

 

Invader ATV:

 

A Primaris attack bike with four instead of three wheels. Most likely M14, T5, 5W, 3+ and between 50 and 60 points including weaponry. You have the choice between

• Onslaught gatling cannon + two bolt rifles
• Multi-melta + two bolt rifles

I guess I wouldn't be interested in the onslaught gatling cannon - Inceptors do the same job better in the same slot. The multi-melta could be interesting, but S8 just doesn't cut it (against T7 targets autocannons are normally better due to higher ROF and only wounding on 4+ against your ideal target - T8 - kind of sucks). If they have some special rule that increases their offensive output, they could have their uses. Most likely bike keyword so they'll profit from our super-doctrine.

 

Firestrike Servo-Turret:

 

You can either have a twin accelerator autocannon or a twin las-talon. A las-talon is a twin lascannon with a measly range of 24 inches and costs 40 points. I think it's safe too say that you don't want this way to expensive lascannon for poor people on your immobile turret. The twin accelerator autocannon (48 range, S7, AP -2, D2) seems like something that would work rather well on a turret. If the pricing is good, this thing could be used to guard the objective(s) in your DZ.

[Cruor Vault]

 

Eradicators:

 

The gravis defensive profile (T5, 3W, 3+) is rather points efficient. Because their weapons are new, they are a wildcard atm. "Long range melta-rifles" might mean 36 inches. Now, if these weapons are also good at actually wounding big baddies (meaning str>8) they could become a new staple of Primaris armies. The Ultramarines' super-doctrine might come in handy on these guys (or they'll just ignore movement penalties anyway, we'll see).

 

 

Their weapon having 'rifle' in the name makes me wonder if maybe their weapon is Rapid Fire.  Alternatively they could have something along the lines of the Aggressor double tap ability.

 

 

Outriders:

 

Basically our good old bikes with +1 AP and +6 range for their bolters. M14, T5, 3W, 3+. Like the old bikes, their weapons are their downfall. It's basically troop weaponry on a fast attack unit. They might be worth it if they were troops, but that's not gonna happen. M14 to grab objectives is not as beneficial as you might think when Scouts, Incursors and Infiltrators are a thing.

 

Rumor mill coming out of the playtesters is that these are the 'Best' competitive unit in the new wave.  Their cost/speed/threat balance is really really good.

 

Judiciar:

 

Relic Blade, perhaps with some minor extra rule, most likely 4++ and some extra rule from tempormortis. A nice melee beatstick, but again, footslogging. Has the same problem like any other boots-on-the-ground melee powerhouse we have in our army: It's too hard to get him into a meaningful fight. Won't see too much competetive play I guess.

 

 

 

Rumor on the Tempormortis is that it makes a unit fight last, kind of like the Space Wolf Relic.

 

 

Firestrike Servo-Turret:

 

You can either have a twin accelerator autocannon or a twin las-talon. A las-talon is a twin lascannon with a measly range of 24 inches and costs 40 points. I think it's safe too say that you don't want this way to expensive lascannon for poor people on your immobile turret. The twin accelerator autocannon (48 range, S7, AP -2, D2) seems like something that would work rather well on a turret. If the pricing is good, this thing could be used to guard the objective(s) in your DZ.

 

 

 

 

Twin Las Talon would have 4x Lascannon shots at 24".  On the new smaller tables there's not much they can't reach as an 80mm base gives it 51" diameter threat.  The various bits on it give a lot of clues to it's rules.  The feet are grav plates like on the Impulsor and Repulsor kits, indicating the possibility of Deep strike Deployment or possibly a penalty to charges against it.  The oversize targeting optics suggests something like ignore cover or my personal theory, supporting overwatch for nearby units.

[Ishagu]

I'm not a big fan of immobile units, but I'm very hopeful for the Eradicators.

 

It would be great if their Meltas could be assault 2 guns with a 30" range, and hopefully they can be run in squads of 3-6

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I hope you can have more than three per squad for the Outriders.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Paulinus]

The servo turret might have an interceptor rule. To deal with flyers that DS for attack runs.

 

Staying immobile seems to make it more defensive than anything else.

[beefeb]

The servo turret might have an interceptor rule. To deal with flyers that DS for attack runs.

 

Staying immobile seems to make it more defensive than anything else.

 

 

On the blurb on the GW website, it describes these as holding the line while your other units take the fight to the enemy, so one or two o these bunkering your deployment area or firelanes lets you concentrate on bikes and invader units going out to the enemy.

 

Plus they look the dogs danglies!

[Captain Idaho]

I'm fairly concerned with immobile units. 9th edition looks much more fluid with the rules we've seen so far and with obscuring terrain this could be a problem.

 

The buggy will either replace the Inceptors or be ignored in favour of. Theme wise it could very well find a place though.

 

Bikes seem okay but what makes Marine bikes so powerful is the special weapons. Running around with just bolt rifles and a chainsword makes them replace Assault Marines... which no one took anyway!

 

Assault Intercessors won't find a place in competitive games for most Chapters and that goes doubly for Ultramarines. We get so much more out of bolt rifles.

 

Bladeguard could be good. We don't know the rules but I'm betting they are quite good at killing infantry and soaking attacks. They will likely need a Captain jumping out of that Impulsor, with that Bladeguard veteran... it's almost like they have 5 models ready to get into it on purpose!

 

On the subject of mobility, with our Tactical Doctrine we can get mileage out of units with heavy weapons out flanking or in Rhinos to get into position. Devastator squads, Eliminators and even Intercessors with Stalkers can move to where they can get a shot which is a nice touch.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Subtleknife]

Does anyone else thing the new units dont aesthetically fit ultras. What I love about the first wave of intercessors was that they were a blank canvas. If I wanted to go knightly order I could do so, if I wanted to go grecko/roman I could. I came with these models (bar a few). I am thinking of combining some invictus suzerains and intercessors to make the bladguard and captains etc.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh the Black Templars are definitely rubbing their hands with glee. Ultramarines can be gothic but it depends largely the collector.

[Subtleknife]

Oh I agree. Dont get me wrong I like the look of the models but they wont fit my collection. I guess I just prefer the first gen as they gave you a blank canvas to work with. It is a lot harder to convert these knight themed ones unless you are going with that aesthetic.

[Ishagu]

I think the turret, buggy, Assault Intercessors, bikers and new Aggressors are all a good fit for the Ultras visually.

 

Some of the characters and the Veterans look very Black Templar/Dark Angel.

 

I'm personally not a fan of immobile units like the turret, as I mentioned before. I would need to see the rules and what it can do.

I imagine the buggy will be more useful as a fast moving, cheap, disruption unit.

[Captain Idaho]

I hope so. I like as many units having a place as possible.

 

Now there's no modifiers to hit for shooting we can see more units like the Invader and Attack Bikes on the table.

 

Land Speeders are getting another look by me, especially as they can flit between Obscuring terrain and hit artillery units.

[Subtleknife]

The new chaplain would it be tournament legal you reckon to proxy him as Cassius. I dont like running non primaris due to the scale difference.

[Ishagu]

The new chaplain would it be tournament legal you reckon to proxy him as Cassius. I dont like running non primaris due to the scale difference.

Just pay 1 CP to make him a better Cassius.

 

You can have a Primaris Chaplain with the far superior relic Crizius, with more attacks and wounds. Pay 1 CP and now you can cast 2 litanies.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Ishagu

[Subtleknife]

Fair one thanks for the advice.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m liking everything except for the turret. I think the bikes and ATV could be quite strong.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah we have options to pay CP for so many characters now, we really have a diverse toolkit.

 

@ BBF: I'm hoping so. If the edition is a close combat as it appears, all of the new stuff will find a home.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Captain Idaho