New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Monsters and walkers can't move through ruins, looks like nothing has changed in this regard.

It means a ruined building still prevents Dreadnoughts, Carnifexes or even a Primarch from moving through it. Also units like this rarely get any cover from the terrain features themselves, which is disappointing.

The image of a Dreadnought smashing through a wall still can't be recreated.

Silly boi always looking for weakness... vertical reach for melee is how 5”. Can you dig it ?

[Ishagu]

The extra range is good. Still limits them greatly in terms of mobility. It's not an issue of attacking all the time.

 

Infantry can walk through a ruined wall, an Ironclad Dreadnought has to walk around it. A Carnifex can't walk through some trees. Don't like this limitation, and nothing can convince me it's good.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Ishagu

[jaxom]

We still don’t know what Breachable terrain is, but with that name....

[Ishagu]

It means infantry can pass through it.

[jaxom]

Damn, that’s slightly disappointing.

[Paulinus]

Looking at the data sheets for some of the new units I’m not sure what will work or not in an Ultramarines list. Or more specifically what will be the most efficient over what we already have access to.

 

My take:

 

Assault Intercessors: I don’t think these will work for us as well as Intercessors. Astartes chain swords are nice as is the extra attack but a lack of special weapons for the Sgt is what kills it for me. Auto bolt gun Intercessors with a Sgt with a Thunderhammer is far better in my mind. In the tactical doctrine you get the ap modifier with your guns for two turns and as many attacks as the AI guys get. I think you get more for your money with Intercessors and more tactical flexibility.

 

Outriders: now these guys have potential. Our ability to leave melee, and shoot, and of our strats like fall back and réengage will make these guys do really well. It adds another mobility tool for us and can still use our chapter tactic.

 

Bladeguard: not sure about these guys. I think we get more with the victrix honour guard. But we’ll see. What they can do better is shoot, screen characters and the master crafted power swords are nice. But very static. Might synergiste well if you have one squad with one squad of Victrix babysitting a character that will be performing actions. Like psykers trying to get secondaries like psychic ritual or something.

 

Judicar: crazy rules for this guy. It will help If we go more assault oriented. Keep him near a Victrix detachment (form Vigilus) and you will have a melee blob that everyone will avoid.

 

 

Primaris Captain. I like this guy. Tanking mortal wounds on a 4+? This guy will be very useful. Give him a sanctic halo and we have a real monster on our hands.

 

Primaris Lieutenant: a storm shield and more importantly the neo volkite pistol makes him more useful than just buffing guys around him. He’ll be a better contributor.

 

Eradicators: over powered. Will be good in any army. Our chapter trait will certainly make them annoying to pin down.

 

Anyways, just a few Saturday morning thoughts on this...

[Ishagu]

I don't think that Eradicators are overpowered at all. They simply have Meltas which aren't useless.

 

When you compare them to old Melta units they do seem a lot more powerful, but in the grand scheme of the game that aren't meta Busters.

[Paulinus]

Yeah, maybe. Shooting 6 Melta shots and being able to advance and shoot with them is pretty powerful. Essentially they have multi meltas but can move and advance with them. They pack more firepower than a devestator squad. Almost twice the wounds and better toughness for a fraction of the points.

 

Put them in strat reserve and there is nothing you will not be able to reach.

 

Now with salamanders these things will be disgusting.

 

With us not as bad but still. Like I said, they will be good with any marine list.

[Paulinus]

Something dawned on me while looking at the differences between Bladeguard and Victrix Honour Guard.

 

Bladeguard have storm shields. Victrix have Ultima Storm Shields,

 

I wonder if that means Victrix will keep their 3++

[Ishagu]

I hope so, but I'm also hoping they get the better power swords, even if it means a point hike!

[Paulinus]

That would also make sense thematically.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Ultima FTW :D

[Captain Idaho]

Grav Cannon Devastators are 115pts for 5 men and 4 cannons. That is the new hotness. Turn 2 Outflank for Ultramarines will be in Tactical Doctrine and thus can move on freely without a hit penalty and use Gravitic Amplification.

 

345pts for 3 such units and you can seriously damage an entire army. It's not as if this unit can't take out troops either, as each Cannon is 4 shots.

 

This is a new hot take. Super competitive. I expect an early points rise in an FAQ and wonder how the hells it got through playtesting! It's powerful for every Chapter too.

 

Glad I've got 4 Grav Cannons on the painting desk ;)

[Ishagu]

I actually own 3 such units. Will give them a whirl when the edition drops. There will be ways to keep them away from outflanking , but it might simply be viable to run them on the board and use terrain.

 

I think 1 or two units is best as they still require the Strat to be truly effective, and will typically be destroyed in response. I think staggering two units into the game one after the other over two turns is probably the most competitive way to play them.

[Toxichobbit]

I actually own 3 such units. Will give them a whirl when the edition drops. There will be ways to keep them away from outflanking , but it might simply be viable to run them on the board and use terrain.

 

I think 1 or two units is best as they still require the Strat to be truly effective, and will typically be destroyed in response. I think staggering two units into the game one after the other over two turns is probably the most competitive way to play them.

Agreed. Plus that has the added benefit of your opponent having to take them into consideration when manoeuvring for multiple turns, which in itself is a powerful tool.

[Ishagu]

I just got a few games in.

 

Guilliman is not as tactically viable, and sadly perhaps best left on the shelf. He melts very quickly and is much harder to protect - everything has to be kept together very tightly, and he can't keep up with Repulsors because he has to walk around every ruin - he really slows them down if you want to keep him protected. When I used infantry for the job - Aggressors and Intercessors, it simply didn't work because the units had to be visible so they can be dealt with quickly by an opponent who knows what to target. Not being able to go through walls is really what cripples him, he has to walk AROUND anything that can be used as LoS blocking.

 

In 8th Guilliman was very effective as a unit who splits off from the bubble to go bash some heads in mid game - this is completely out of the question, he'll be taken down immediately.

 

It's much better to run cheap, generic characters. If his rules remain unchanged he should be costed at 200 points at an absolute maximum, or his resurrection has to be automatic with 6 wounds upon returning.

 

Calgar fared much better because I could put him in a transport that started behind a 5" tall ruin, but I think we're better off running an even cheaper character and spending the CP to upgrade him to a CM. The CP bonus might be worth the extra cost you pay for Calgar, but I need a few more games to establish if this is the case as paying for a CM still leaves you with 15CP in a 5 turn game. The army really does feel a lot smaller in 9th too. I am tempted to run a Patrol detachment!

 

His rules could be vastly different, but that remains to be seen.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Ishagu

[Oxydo]

*snip*

Guilliman is not tactically viable, best to leave him on the shelf. He melts very quickly and is much harder to protect - everything has to be kept together very tightly, and he can't keep up with Repulsors because he has to walk around every ruin - he really slows them down if you want to keep him protected. When I used infantry for the job - Aggressors and Intercessors, it simply didn't work because the units had to be visible so they can be dealt with quickly by an opponent who knows what to target. Not being able to go through walls is really what cripples him, he has to walk AROUND anything that can be used as LoS blocking.

*snip*

 

I'm a bit confused over the "had to be visable" statement. Did you play that the units protecting characters have to be visable for the Look-out-Sir to take effect?

Because from my reading of the the rule it looks like you can pretty much chuck a 3 man unit out of LoS and protect a character (provided they don't get killed by something that doesn't need LoS).

[Ishagu]

My apologies. I was referring to the fact they had to follow him around closely, and how the infantry was slowing his movement speed whilst he was preventing them from staying out of LoS. Remember you're paying a massive premium for those auras so lots of units have to make use of them.

 

In all the games we were trying to get mid board for objectives. In the past you could keep a unit out of LoS far in-front of your characters. You can't keep Guilliman back behind buildings in a 5 turn game because it will take him multiple turns to reposition to be of use in later turns.

 

If Guilliman was strictly an aura character this would't be as much of an issue, but you pay a LOT of points for his stats and weapons and it's far more difficult to get any use out of them. The second you break off to deal with an encroaching threat you will probably lose the character. You need multiple units near him at all times - one tank and some infantry is too risky.

 

This isn't an issue with some 85 point Captain Genericus of XYZ company, but it's a big problem with a 350 point warlord that could give up a LOT of points.

 

EDIT:

 

You'll see what I mean when you get a few games in. You have to be really cagey, and I think it's really damaging to the army's movement and board control in several ways. Losing a unit like this is really crippling, and the unit really is limited in how it responds to threats. If an enemy cc unit/elite walker/etc is approaching from any position on the board, you can no longer send the Primarch in to respond without diverting multiple other units with him.

 

Remember you have to be careful with deployment. You don't know who's going first until AFTER you've deployed. The best thing about the Repulsor is starting behind a ruin, nice and safe, and then flying over it in your turn, as an example. The Primarch can't start in that unit or keep up with it as it takes shortcuts, but must remain close if he doesn't want to be a target.

 

Perhaps I was too aggressive in my play, or perhaps the terrain was badly placed. I'll get some more games in. Looking back on my post I sound a bit negative. The new game is more different from 8th than anticipated, and not just due to the missions! I do think that expensive characters like this need some assessment as their protection was heavily nerfed.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Ishagu

[Ishagu]

Here is something positive:

 

Our re-deploy strat is a LOT more useful in 9th. By default you will be deploying more conservatively, but should you win that roll you can reposition units to be more offensive, or visa versa if you lose the roll.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

I think Guilliman is no longer suited to gunlines and shooting armies for the reasons you've described. He needs to spearhead an attacking force.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

200 points... how can I even take you serious?

[Captain Idaho]

Wait, is that his rumoured new points cost?

[Kallas]

Wait, is that his rumoured new points cost?

 

No, it's just the typical Ishagu hyperbole:

 

If his rules remain unchanged he should be costed at 200 points at an absolute maximum, or his resurrection has to be automatic with 6 wounds upon returning.

[emperorpants]

Hmm. Yeah, I don't know. I feel like Guilliman may end up not being chosen much as far as competitive is concerned. If it takes an assault force to properly protect him and make the most of him, then I personally don't really see him as worth it. We do gun lines better than assault, as we don't have much in the way of anything really to help with assault. I'm not saying we can't assault, just that It isn't really our forte. It just seems like we would be better off taking Calgar or a normal captain to better fit our play style. Especially if Guilliman ends up being closer to 400 points than 300.

 

That said, I'm sure there will be niche uses for Guilliman, such as giving assault a try or maybe apoc games. It just doesn't seem like he will ever be a great choice, just a model you take for thematic fun, as there will always be a more efficient choice than him. Hopefully he doesn't get too massive of a points hike. Also, hopefully some things will change in the day 1 faq to help him out. Not trying to be negative, just giving an honest assessment of how viable Guilliman will be in a competitive format. He will still be fun to play in friendly games of course, as well as homebrew narrative games.

[Ishagu]

200 points... how can I even take you serious?

A slow moving character who can't enter a transport and is much harder to protect than before in an edition where anyone and anything can outflank behind your lines.

 

He's only marginally better than Abaddon, a character who I will argue is also costed too high now.

 

This new edition does not favour expensive 8/9 wound characters, and as a result their points should be lowered.

If I can replace him with something that can do his job for less then yes, he is too expensive.

 

Pretending that he's a super powerful meta buster is not doing anyone any favours.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Ishagu