New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[Charybdis]

Not to derail the current Guilliman conversation but I need some advice from wiser heads.

 

I'm very new to the game and am currently only just building my Ultramarine army. I love the Cataphracti and Tartaros terminator models, I was just hoping for some advice on weapons load out and how best to play them in an Ultra army.

 

Will they be useful in 9th or is it still too early to speculate?

 

Any help would be appreciated. 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Charybdis

[Ishagu]

I think Catas are the better of the two variants, and would equip them all with combi-bolters and power fist, or combi-bolters and lightning claw if you want to focus on anti-infantry.

 

No fancy upgrades or weapons.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Wait, is that his rumoured new points cost?

No and be serious . Ishagu is our harbinger.

I think Catas are the better of the two variants, and would equip them all with combi-bolters and power fist, or combi-bolters and lightning claw if you want to focus on anti-infantry.

No fancy upgrades or weapons.

Dude this is an HH kit there are no fancy upgrades to be found and the grenade launcher is free so yeah.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Not to derail the current Guilliman conversation but I need some advice from wiser heads.

 

I'm very new to the game and am currently only just building my Ultramarine army. I love the Cataphracti and Tartaros terminator models, I was just hoping for some advice on weapons load out and how best to play them in an Ultra army.

 

Will they be useful in 9th or is it still too early to speculate?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

I run cats all with combi bolters and chainfist. These are a heavy hitting unit.

[Ishagu]

I actually forgot about the Chainfists. They are indeed a better choice than the regular Power Fists for the extra AP and guaranteed damage.

[Charybdis]

What about the Tartaros models?

 

They seem to have greater movement. I was considering using them as a reserve unit to deep strike in or too act as bodyguards for a wrecking ball unit with Gulliman. 

[Ishagu]

The movement is better but the durability of the Cataphractii is significantly higher.

 

Keep in mind both types can teleport into battle so the speed is somewhat mitigated.

 

Are you planning on Transports?

[Charybdis]

Unfortunately I've just found out you can't take Terminators in Repulsors. I'll probably go for a land raider, seem's like they'll have greater utility in 9th. 

 

What are people's thoughts on flyers in 9th? I have been considering investing in a Storm Raven. 

 

Edit- Actually with Strategic Reserves, smaller board size and greater emphasis on Terrain are troop transports less viable now? 

 

Would it be better to go for a pure Dakka tank like a Sicaran? 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Charybdis

[emperorpants]

Unfortunately I've just found out you can't take Terminators in Repulsors. I'll probably go for a land raider, seem's like they'll have greater utility in 9th.

 

What are people's thoughts on flyers in 9th? I have been considering investing in a Storm Raven.

 

Edit- Actually with Strategic Reserves, smaller board size and greater emphasis on Terrain are troop transports less viable now?

 

Would it be better to go for a pure Dakka tank like a Sicaran?

 

I have a stormraven, and it's usefulness is iffy. At the end of 8th it wasn't a very competitive choice. Too many points in a fairly squishy unit. It always melts fairly fast. In 9th, it will likely be the same, especially since it can always be shot at. If you take one you really need to hope for going first turn 1, especially if it's filled with powerful models like terminators. It will be too tempting of a unit to pass up.

 

If you are looking for a way to deliver terminators, you might be better off using a land raider redeemer. It will be much cheaper, have better wounds and toughness, and be able to burn your enemies even if they get in combat. I'd also have Tiggy make it -1 to hit to help ensure it gets where you want it.

Edited July 9, 2020 by emperorpants

[Charybdis]

 

Unfortunately I've just found out you can't take Terminators in Repulsors. I'll probably go for a land raider, seem's like they'll have greater utility in 9th.

 

What are people's thoughts on flyers in 9th? I have been considering investing in a Storm Raven.

 

Edit- Actually with Strategic Reserves, smaller board size and greater emphasis on Terrain are troop transports less viable now?

 

Would it be better to go for a pure Dakka tank like a Sicaran?

I have a stormraven, and it's usefulness is iffy. At the end of 8th it wasn't a very competitive choice. Too many points in a fairly squishy unit. It always melts fairly fast. In 9th, it will likely be the same, especially since it can always be shot at. If you take one you really need to hope for going first turn 1, especially if it's filled with powerful models like terminators. It will be too tempting of a unit to pass up.

 

If you are looking for a way to deliver terminators, you might be better off using a land raider redeemer. It will be much cheaper, have better wounds and toughness, and be able to burn your enemies even if they get in combat. I'd also have Tiggy make it -1 to hit to help ensure it gets where you want it.

 

Thank you.

 

I was thinking of going 'Crusader' but with the new combat rules and flamers ignoring Terrain cover that sounds like the way to go. 

[emperorpants]

 

 

Unfortunately I've just found out you can't take Terminators in Repulsors. I'll probably go for a land raider, seem's like they'll have greater utility in 9th.

What are people's thoughts on flyers in 9th? I have been considering investing in a Storm Raven.

Edit- Actually with Strategic Reserves, smaller board size and greater emphasis on Terrain are troop transports less viable now?

Would it be better to go for a pure Dakka tank like a Sicaran?

 

I have a stormraven, and it's usefulness is iffy. At the end of 8th it wasn't a very competitive choice. Too many points in a fairly squishy unit. It always melts fairly fast. In 9th, it will likely be the same, especially since it can always be shot at. If you take one you really need to hope for going first turn 1, especially if it's filled with powerful models like terminators. It will be too tempting of a unit to pass up.

If you are looking for a way to deliver terminators, you might be better off using a land raider redeemer. It will be much cheaper, have better wounds and toughness, and be able to burn your enemies even if they get in combat. I'd also have Tiggy make it -1 to hit to help ensure it gets where you want it.

Thank you.

 

I was thinking of going 'Crusader' but with the new combat rules and flamers ignoring Terrain cover that sounds like the way to go.

You're welcome. :) also, I'd have Tiggy cast might of heroes on the redeemer. Gotta get your terminators where you want them. The redeemer won't be unkillable, but a toughness 9, 16 wounds, 2+ save, -1 to hit model is going to be tough to kill.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The beauty of five Cataprachti terminators is 20 shots from their combi bolters always with bolter discipline. Heavy weapons are still garbage coz infantry still suffers -1 to hit when moving.

[Ishagu]

@Charybdis

 

I can't help but advise that you should perhaps be looking at Aggressors over any of the Terminator variants.

 

Are these models you already own or are they planned purchases?

[Charybdis]

@Charybdis

 

I can't help but advise that you should perhaps be looking at Aggressors over any of the Terminator variants.

 

Are these models you already own or are they planned purchases?

Yeah being new to 40K my entire force so far is Primaris aside from a Devastator squad (all with Grav.)

 

I've not bought the termi's yet, but I want them more for the aesthetic appeal and variety in gameplay than a competitive edge. Although if I could find a way to make them so, that would be a bonus.

[Ishagu]

In the interest of better investments, it's probably better to go for Aggressors.

 

They are also compatible with the Repulsor tanks.

 

I know they aren't as aesthetically pleasing in some people's eyes, but they are very chunky and imposing when you actually see them on the tabletop.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Aggressors melt versus any significant firepower due to lack of an invulnerable save.

[Captain Idaho]

If you like Terminators then take them. They're much more survivable than any other infantry in the army. Even Aggressors. The reason being is a 2+ save and invulnerable save, combined with more use out Transhuman Physiology.

 

Terminators can teleport into position, thus saving CPs on paying for Outflank, unlike Aggressors.

 

They're also superior in close combat, thanks to Fury of the First and better selections of weapons.

 

There's plenty of reasons to take Aggressors, but I warn against any advice which pushes them ahead of their rivals because they have some very real weaknesses.

 

I've hit a point as a player where my bias towards Classic Marines has disappeared and I can see the benefits of all choices.

 

Unless it's Incursors. They suck.

 

***

 

Land Raiders are very much back in the game. They can be protected from enemy fire by obscuring terrain and they also have a 2+ save which is head and shoulders above that of a Repulsor.

 

Again, there are plenty of reasons to have a Repulsor, but be wary listening to folk who speak to them above all else.

 

:)

Edited July 10, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

The Aggressors are more resilient to high volumes of anti-infantry attacks, more vulnerable to anti tank weapons.

 

They are far more deadly in shooting and combat, however, and that can't be understated.

[Charybdis]

Ishagu - Yeah I've already had a couple of small matches with my aggressors and the sheer amount of fire power they put out has made them an auto include in my admittedly small range of models so far. Currently I'm whizzing them around the battlefield in an Impulsor. I had been using the bolter load out in 8th, but the esteemed gentleman's comments on the Redeemer with flamers has me wondering if it might be an idea to swap in some flamestorm gauntlets now. 

 

From an aesthetic perspective I think the whole Primaris range looks stunning. Although the go-cart is pushing it a bit. 

 

 

Black Blow Fly - I have had entire squads wiped out in a single turn, they do seem to be bullet magnets for the opposing teams firepower (incidentally I've had a similar issue with Hellblasters.) but on the whole I have found that sheer carnage they can cause before being put down makes them decent enough (unlike Hellblasters). At least at the level I'm currently playing at.

 

Captain Idaho - Haha literally perfect timing, I'm having a crack at painting up my Vanguard starter box set tonight I was pondering whether to go Infiltrators or Incursors. Infiltrators it is then.

That screening out ability is going to be a bit bloody good with a smaller board and reserves in 9th. 

 

I did a bit of reading last night and I'm a bit impressed by the Sicaran range of tanks, beautiful models too by the way. With Termies being able to teleport and my Devastator squad being able to deploy from reserve (or possibly a Drop Pod? Do these things have a use other than troop delivery?) I'm thinking pure Dakka will be more useful than troop transport. 

My main concern with the Sicaran's is that Forgeworld seem to be a bit 'pay to win'. I really don't want to be that guy who turns up and annihilates everyone through more expensive models. 

 

Is there a general consensus on the fairness of using Forgeworld within the community? 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Aggressors unfortunately can’t ride in Impulsors due to their Gravis armor.

[Charybdis]

Aggressors unfortunately can’t ride in Impulsors due to their Gravis armor.

Haha so I've started my adventure in 8th by cheating already. Good to know 

 

Edit- Apologies I mixed the names up, I mean't Repulsor. The Executioner variant. 

Edited July 10, 2020 by Charybdis

[Captain Idaho]

Most people will not be too bothered by Forge World but there's always the odd grumble when someone loses a game etc.

 

Sicaran Tanks are very fluffy for Ultramarines and look amazing. Possibly the best vehicle for Space Marines in any range. I don't think they're particularly over powered and we don't quite know the updated points for 9th yet, so I can't say for certain right now whether folk will think they're good or not.

 

I say get one anyway. ;)

 

Regarding board control - Infiltrators will give an edge to an army and in 9th this could be big. However, they are expensive and thus if you go too heavy (any more than 15 in 3 squads) you'll have less killing potential elsewhere. (It's the reason I continue to use Tactical Marines in tournaments, as they can provide shooting power to an army whilst fulfilling the requirements of a Troops choice)

 

Regarding Aggressors in close combat... yes they're quite good once they get there. But therein lies the problem. Moving them into close combat means sacrificing double shots potentially, which detracts from their role as infantry blender in the shooting phase. Hitting on 4s sucks as well, frankly.

[Ishagu]

Why are you giving up double shooting?

 

You can disembark 8" away from a transport, shoot a unit 18" away 100+ times and then assault something else. This is the most effective way to use them as Ultramarines.

 

As for Sicaran tanks, the only variant I would recommend is the Sicaran Venator as it is a very effective tank hunter. Astartes have no issues with infantry killing.

 

FW is generally perfectly fine to use, but be aware that the rules will be updated and could change significantly later this month.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

The new rules for disembarking from a transport means you have to be wholly within 3", which means with the larger base size you aren't profiting as much from a transport.

 

You give up double shooting if you move the unit or sit inside a transport. Sure Tactical Doctrine we enjoy double shots anyway, but that's only 2 turns unless you invest in the various ways we can put units in Tactical Doctrine (to be fair it's a solid tactic if invested into Aggressors).

 

Again, I'm not saying one is better than the other. They are different beasts. Saying Aggressors are stand out superior just doesn't give the whole story.

[Charybdis]

I'm trying to find a balance between building a force that fits my image of what I want my Ultra's to be, but at the same time isn't going to be completely wiped off the board while looking gorgeous in the first turn.

 

Bobby G loved the Sicaran's so I think I'll treat myself pending the new rules. Thank you for the Venator suggestion, I've noticed quite a few players at my local store seem to run Knights.

 

 

Apologies if I'm spamming the thread here, but what are people's thoughts on Reivers in 9th? I haven't quite found an effective niche for them yet. Is it better to run them with the Carbines? Or are there any strats or relics I should utilise?