New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Reivers are just bad lol.

[Ishagu]

They are the cheapest Primaris infantry and can appear anywhere on the board, there is value in that.

 

Because they aren't troops they weren't as viable in 8th as you were looking to run multiple detachments, meaning you needed more troops, meaning Reivers were ignored.

 

Now in 9th you only need 1 detachment, so you can run Reivers as cheap board control reserves.

 

They are inferior to Intercessors in terms of ranged damage, and inferior to Assault Intercessors in terms of close combat damage.

However they are cheaper than both and can be deployed 9" away from enemy units, anywhere on the board.

 

90 points for 10 wounds spread across 5 Primaris models. This is a very low cost, only 15 points more than 5 naked Tactical Marines and you're getting double the wounds, more attack in close combat, better weapons and some bonus morale rules.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

If you want board control, take cheap infiltration units like Scouts or take Infiltrators. Don't waste points on Reivers as putting them close to opponents isn't going to worry anyone, even if you can.

[Ishagu]

Scouts don't cut it anymore, I don't feel. Especially if you want to add cloaks to the unit - they are just too pricey. Infiltrators are great but very expensive too.

240 points for 10 is a significant investment, and I wouldn't run more than that.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Ishagu

[jaxom]

I think a lot will come down to the new points. If bolter scouts aren't too expensive then they have a purpose blocking out areas of the board. Any shots going to them (to clear out deepstrike/reserve space) are shots not going to the more expensive Primaris units.

[Captain Idaho]

We've had the points leaked. Scouts save a lot of points over any other unit.

 

They still have a place, that much won't change.

 

I find it astonishing Reivers are being recommended but Scouts are not.

[Ishagu]

Scouts had a bigger % increase in cost over other units in the Troop slot.

 

They were hiked by 30% in cost.

Incursors went up by 10%

 

I don't feel they are worthwhile over other options. Incursors are now comparatively better at their job of deploying around the table and are much more durable with a better save and more wounds.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

The percentage increase of various units means nothing as to their current (9th edition) position. Incursors have very limited use and are still far too expensive to be used as chaff or "cheap" troops slots for a Battalion.

 

I'm certain as tournament results come in, big tournament players will still use Scouts.

 

I use Tactical Marines because they fit my theme, narrative, collection and on the table they pack reasonable firepower into a list whilst fulfilling Troops slots. That doesn't mean I think they will find places in lists over Scouts for board control and infiltration purposes.

[Charybdis]

Does Telion add any significant worth to the Scout units in game? 

 

Ultramarines have far more characters than other Chapters. But in the games I've played so far I've only ever seen The Big G, Calgar or Tiggy make it to the table.

 

Cassius seem's extremely useful with the new litanies (definitely proxying him with the new Chaplain model from indomitus) and Chronus in a land raider appears worth consideration.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I personally eschew the use of scouts when we have Infiltrators. I recommend one ten man squad and break it into combat squads.

Does Telion add any significant worth to the Scout units in game? 

 

Ultramarines have far more characters than other Chapters. But in the games I've played so far I've only ever seen The Big G, Calgar or Tiggy make it to the table.

 

Cassius seem's extremely useful with the new litanies (definitely proxying him with the new Chaplain model from indomitus) and Chronus in a land raider appears worth consideration.

Cassius is really good.

[Captain Idaho]

I appreciate that. I loath using any points for models that'll just die as chaff for Marines, prefering to pop stuff into transports and use target saturation over sacrificial units.

 

Though I also appreciate many folk will rather use Scouts to die rather than anything else!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I just am happier with the infiltrators... you get what you pay for as the saying goes. ;)

[Ishagu]

I'll give you the run down of the characters:

 

Calgar - Very good, I would say he should be in most Ultras lists unless you're running the Primarch.

 

Tiggy - Great psyker, very good at casting, unfortunately has access to sub-par psychic disciplines so not a mandatory inclusion. Some nice rules but if you really want a Psyker you can consider an Inquisitor instead. Some nice powers and abilities you can access.

 

Telion - Not worth it, unfortunately. Classic model, but very tiny.

 

Chronus - Very good choice if you're running any vehicle that he can deploy in. Cheap and effective!

 

Cassius - Used to be a good choice. Now you can pay 1 CP to upgrade any Chaplain into a better Cassius that costs less points.

Use a Primaris Chaplain with the Relic Crozius and upgrade him so he can cast 2 litanies for 1CP. No need to proxy as the Primaris Chaplain will have better rules all round, and is much better in a fight too.

 

Guilliman - Good rules and stats, but too expensive. We haven't actually seen his points in the new edition, but with armies getting smaller his inclusion becomes harder. If you're running him keep the rest of the HQs cheap.

 

As for the argument about cheap troops and what not, I personally prefer to keep the army as elite as possible in terms of rules and stats whilst trying to keep the numbers up. I don't rate scouts anymore, they aren't particularly cheap, they have a poor save and average stats. I would rather pay 6 more points for an Incursors who can be deployed anywhere and would require significantly more effort on the enemy's part to deal with.

Edited July 10, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

I agree with going the elite route, though I'd rate Intercessors head and shoulders above Incursors but that's another debate.

 

Since you've raised talking about characters, here's my run down:

 

Calgar - great in certain lists but slow moving and thus difficult to get the most out of. If it's just rerolls, with more CP per army in 9th edition why not just take a cheaper Captain who can either fit inside cheaper transports, teleport, fly, ride a bike or infiltrate and give said Captain Chapter Master?

 

As a beat stick he's good and is very effective except for that critical problem.

 

Tigurius - Agree with Ishagu mostly here. Psychic powers aren't bad but yes you do need to select wisely. Limiting speed and targeting characters from the Indomitus Discipline isn't terrible though.

 

Chronus, Cassius and Guilliman - agreed with Ishagu too. I'd add that Chronus can be a cheap HQ if you're taking his vehicle anyway.

 

Land Raiders look very good this edition so Chronus in one could be a winner.

 

Telion - really effective and cheap. Definitely worth taking if you want to fill an HQ slot for cheap, like Chronus before him. Not as effective in that regard due to less need to spam Detachments for HQs.

 

Scouts aren't game breaking but if you have some near Telion you may as well boost their firepower.

 

Sicarius - I just don't think he's quite good enough or does anything interesting anymore. Giving a unit objective secured for a turn could be game changing, but majority of times will do nothing. Like the vast majority of times.

 

Weapons are reasonable and he's got a 2+ save, so isn't a total wash out, but he won't be breaking the game really.

 

I want to like him, he's cheap and fairly powerful as a duelist, but he needs a transport too. And if I want a duelist I'd go for the cheaper Chapter Champion and kick butt.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Tiggy is must take being the best psyker in the 40k universe. The key is to run a second Librarian to cast Empiric Channeling on him... Tiggy goes beast mode and can cast super smites. He can make a unit -1 to hit which is a big deal.

 

I can see a case made for a Primaris Chaplain but I’ll still with Cassius and he’s the better choice in my opinion too. Our special characters have unique abilities you can’t buy with CP.

[Captain Idaho]

Yes the -1 to hit he provides gives us quite a lot of defence as well. I forgot to mention it. If we give it to a large Terminator squad, Aggressors or Leviathan Dreadnought, for example, we'll have a unit that becomes just that bit more difficult to shift.

 

What with Duty Eternal, Transhuman Physiology and Tigurius support from Might of Heroes (on the Leviathan) 2e have units that are fearsome and require a lot to delete.

[Ishagu]

Tiggy is the best at casting in any Imperium army, but the powers are all generally situational so I don't agree that he's a must take. I've run him multiple games and often he contributes very little. There is the occasional game where he's useful but it's definitely not a guarantee. I've never found the army to be strictly worse for not taking him.

 

Take Mephiston as an example. He can't cast as well, but his powers are much better so he's ultimately more useful. If the Ultramarine discipline was better Tiggy would be great. You can't even stack Scryer's Gaze with Adept of the Codex now.

 

You can be the best marksman in the world, but if the gun you're assigned is rubbish it doesn't matter as much.

[CCE1981]

Aggressors melt versus any significant firepower due to lack of an invulnerable save.

You and I have vastly different experience with Aggressors vs Terminators. I typically hang my Aggressors out as bait for Leviathans, that 5-man squad takes two turns of fire before they go down. I wipe two 5-man Cataphractii Terminators that have dropped on me in one turn with my Leviathan.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is situational... I’m very careful with my terminators whereas Aggressors can’t hide to get the most out of them.

 

I use Tiggy primarily as a smite bomb... he can cast basically two smites... and also for the buffs like Captain Idaho mentioned.

Edited July 11, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Paulinus]

So I’m going to suggest a small tactic to protect a Thunderfire techmarine from some first turn charge shenanigans or any charge shenanigans. In this case specifically against harlequins that tend to send up troupe masters for a suicide run.

 

Place 3 eliminators around a TF tech marine. Leave enough of a gap for the harlequin to get to him but not without coming within an inch of the eliminators. This will force him to charge both.

 

When he charges use the overwatch strat. And use the ultramarine strat to allow other units to overwatch within 6 inches. Shoot with the techmarine, who hopefully has range with his flamer. Shoot with the TF and shoot with the eliminators.

 

Hopefully you’ll cause some wounds. Then use the eliminators ability to move after firing overwatch. Go as far away as you can.

 

With the new rules he likely will not reach the Eliminators now. This will trigger a failed charge and the troupe master will be stranded.

 

This could be an effective way to keep any character from getting charged while luring things in.

 

Just spitballing a few things with some of the new rules and how it could apply.

 

You’ll probably be able to only do this to an opponent only once but enough to catch him off guard.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like it ! Ultramarines are tactical.

[Toxichobbit]

So I’m going to suggest a small tactic to protect a Thunderfire techmarine from some first turn charge shenanigans or any charge shenanigans. In this case specifically against harlequins that tend to send up troupe masters for a suicide run.

 

Place 3 eliminators around a TF tech marine. Leave enough of a gap for the harlequin to get to him but not without coming within an inch of the eliminators. This will force him to charge both.

 

When he charges use the overwatch strat. And use the ultramarine strat to allow other units to overwatch within 6 inches. Shoot with the techmarine, who hopefully has range with his flamer. Shoot with the TF and shoot with the eliminators.

 

Hopefully you’ll cause some wounds. Then use the eliminators ability to move after firing overwatch. Go as far away as you can.

 

With the new rules he likely will not reach the Eliminators now. This will trigger a failed charge and the troupe master will be stranded.

 

This could be an effective way to keep any character from getting charged while luring things in.

 

Just spitballing a few things with some of the new rules and how it could apply.

 

You’ll probably be able to only do this to an opponent only once but enough to catch him off guard.

You don't even have to move away. You just have to move to make a multi-charge impossible. You could actually walk the Eliminators right up to the Troupe Master and he would still fail the charge, because although he might be able to reach both he can't engage them both.

 

I doubt it will often be sensible to respond to a situation like this by moving the Eliminators forward into the enemies face, but it's worth baring in mind to do cheeky objective grabs and so on.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Basically never multi charge if one target unit has shenanigans ! Edited July 11, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[emperorpants]

So our super doctrine is unchanged. It's frankly very niche at best. Now we have all the rules and faqs. I was really hoping for a bit of a change to it. It's literally useless for everything with the vehicle keyword except the executioner, which is a dubious choice in general due to its points cost. This is unfortunate. I know other units got buffs or better in some ways, but so far Ultras are taking a hit overall compared to other chapters. Our CT is better though, which will help.

[Cruor Vault]

So our super doctrine is unchanged. It's frankly very niche at best. Now we have all the rules and faqs. I was really hoping for a bit of a change to it. It's literally useless for everything with the vehicle keyword except the executioner, which is a dubious choice in general due to its points cost. This is unfortunate. I know other units got buffs or better in some ways, but so far Ultras are taking a hit overall compared to other chapters. Our CT is better though, which will help.

 

This is a rather dim view of things.  I think our CT is one of, if not THE MOST powerful going into 9th.  It's not a raw power upgrade like some of the other ones, but the ability of our units to bounce around the battlefield in and out of combat is going to be MASSIVE once everyone adjusts to the mobility oriented 9th edition missions.