New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[Subtleknife]

Am I reading the errata right. The defensive fire strat that allows Ultras to pick 3 other units to fire oveewatch does that mean we can fire overwatch twice in the turn. Once from our strat and then once with the core rule book strat

[emperorpants]

 

So our super doctrine is unchanged. It's frankly very niche at best. Now we have all the rules and faqs. I was really hoping for a bit of a change to it. It's literally useless for everything with the vehicle keyword except the executioner, which is a dubious choice in general due to its points cost. This is unfortunate. I know other units got buffs or better in some ways, but so far Ultras are taking a hit overall compared to other chapters. Our CT is better though, which will help.

 

 

This is a rather dim view of things.  I think our CT is one of, if not THE MOST powerful going into 9th.  It's not a raw power upgrade like some of the other ones, but the ability of our units to bounce around the battlefield in and out of combat is going to be MASSIVE once everyone adjusts to the mobility oriented 9th edition missions.

Possibly. It's a reactive ability. Yes, it IS very good now though. If I wasn't clear on that before, let me say it now: our CT is very good now. In exchange our super doctrine went from great to simply ok. It still has it's uses, it's just more niche now. We took a hit overall imo. There are positives to be sure, but it's not all sun shine and rainbows. Just like it's not all rain clouds. Honest assessment.

[Lemondish]

Am I reading the errata right. The defensive fire strat that allows Ultras to pick 3 other units to fire oveewatch does that mean we can fire overwatch twice in the turn. Once from our strat and then once with the core rule book strat

Yes.

 

Provided it's not the same units doing it twice (pretty sure the Strat blocks them from firing overwatch again).

Edited July 13, 2020 by Lemondish

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Smurfs doing oversnatch better than Tau’va :D

[Lemondish]

Smurfs doing oversnatch better than Tau’va :D

Eh, I still wouldn't say that lol

 

It's definitely strong, but they still have 8th edition style overwatch alongside FtGG.

[emperorpants]

 

Smurfs doing oversnatch better than Tau’va :D

Eh, I still wouldn't say that lol

It's definitely strong, but they still have 8th edition style overwatch alongside FtGG.

Given what we know I'd say we are solidly second best at overwatch at the moment. Which is good of course.

 

Other points: with characters dieing easier another of our strats will become big. The one where if an enemy unit kills one of ours we get to re roll ones to hit for the rest of the game against that unit. This strat has just got it's stock increased due to character protections becoming limited.

 

Relic contemptors actually got a points DROP. This is great for us, as quad Las contemptors were great before, and ours can fall back and shoot.

Edited July 13, 2020 by emperorpants

[Toxichobbit]

 

So our super doctrine is unchanged. It's frankly very niche at best. Now we have all the rules and faqs. I was really hoping for a bit of a change to it. It's literally useless for everything with the vehicle keyword except the executioner, which is a dubious choice in general due to its points cost. This is unfortunate. I know other units got buffs or better in some ways, but so far Ultras are taking a hit overall compared to other chapters. Our CT is better though, which will help.

 

This is a rather dim view of things.  I think our CT is one of, if not THE MOST powerful going into 9th.  It's not a raw power upgrade like some of the other ones, but the ability of our units to bounce around the battlefield in and out of combat is going to be MASSIVE once everyone adjusts to the mobility oriented 9th edition missions.

 

 

Unless of course you're facing a shooting army like T'au or Guard, where you'll get little to no use out of the Chapter tactic.

 

It will never be the most powerful no matter how limited falling back from melee is for everybody else, because it's always going to be situational. It's always going to be opponent specific and because of that incredibly swingy. Against some opponents it'll be the best special rule you can have and will literally win games, against others it might as well not exist.

 

Smurfs doing oversnatch better than Tau’va

 

Does that mean that Ultramarines now need to be nerfed?

Edited July 15, 2020 by Toxichobbit

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s definitely one of the best because the majority of armies have some melee built in... and no more tagging tanks and dreads is huge.

[jaxom]

Even against Tau it can be useful to get a unit stuck in (for protection) until your next turn and then fall back to shoot/let another unit shoot at what was in combat with them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I bet Tau will get a loop hole to fall back and still shoot.

[Ishagu]

Yeah definitely. Necrons can do it too, and with no hit penalties, through the use of a character.

[Toxichobbit]

Even against Tau it can be useful to get a unit stuck in (for protection) until your next turn and then fall back to shoot/let another unit shoot at what was in combat with them.

 

It doesn't give protection unless they stay in melee. T'au don't stay in melee, with the possible exception of a vehicle now that Big Guns Never Tire is a thing (we'll have to see how that one shakes out). They just move out, sacrifice that unit's shooting then use everything else to gun you down.

 

Even if they did, for some reason, stay in melee, I'd rather be stuck in there with them. A slap fight vastly favours Marines over T'au. Shooting at -1 to hit and not tying their units up to stop them shooting the next turn, not so much.

 

I bet Tau will get a loop hole to fall back and still shoot.

If that was going to happen it would have been in the FAQ. It isn't, so no new falling back and shooting for them.

[Ishagu]

Just seen on Facebook that RG's Armor of Fate ability has been nerfed even more heavily, and I checked the FAQ to confirm.

 

If he's brought back to life he is now set up immediately, so another unit can just shoot him again and remove him permanently.

 

That's a massive nerf. I think I'll just put the unit back on the shelf until the next codex. I'm not saying this in an overly negative way - I think GW will probably re-balance the units again in a 9th edition book. I just see no reason whatsoever to handicap myself in the meantime.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It’s actually helpful if he is shot down on Overwatch and successfully makes the charge though .

[Ishagu]

It’s actually helpful if he is shot down on Overwatch and successfully makes the charge though .

Not a situation that will occur often enough to be a consideration.

 

Also the rules don't allow a unit to charge more than once. He can't be set up into a combat.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

-nvrmnd- Edited July 15, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Cruor Vault]

 

It’s actually helpful if he is shot down on Overwatch and successfully makes the charge though .

Not a situation that will occur often enough to be a consideration.

 

Also the rules don't allow a unit to charge more than once. He can't be set up into a combat.

 

 

I think Blow Fly might be right on this. 

 

I will say that there's nothing in the rules that covers this situation specifically.

 

As there isn't a delay when he gets up anymore (and overwatch happens before moving charging units), it means there's nothing in the rules that says he doesn't get to move as normal after the charge is declared and overwatch is resolved.

[Ishagu]

You set the model back up, out of engagement range. It doesn't matter if they declared a charge before or not.

 

Also the same unit can't declare a 2nd charge, unfortunately.

[Cruor Vault]

You set the model back up, out of engagement range. It doesn't matter if they declared a charge before or not.

 

Also the same unit can't declare a 2nd charge, unfortunately.

 

True, but what part of the rules states you don't then proceed to resolve the rest of the charge process?  He's alive and on the table once overwatch has been resolved exactly as if he passed his saves/didn't take any damage from overwatch. 

 

You're assuming his "death" means he loses the rest of his actions?

[Ishagu]

 

 

You set the model back up, out of engagement range. It doesn't matter if they declared a charge before or not.

 

Also the same unit can't declare a 2nd charge, unfortunately.

True, but what part of the rules states you don't then proceed to resolve the rest of the charge process? He's alive and on the table once overwatch has been resolved exactly as if he passed his saves/didn't take any damage from overwatch.

 

You're assuming his "death" means he loses the rest of his actions?

Because the unit has been removed and then re-deployed. Actions you had declared prior don't occur after Re-deployment.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is a discontinuity which is a special case though .

[Captain Idaho]

Not sure how much Guilliman dies to Overwatch but it can happen. In the shooting phase as normal this is a very real threat of him being shot by the next unit, or to a lesser degree in the assault phase etc.

 

It's not game breaking for Guilliman, but something to bear in mind. I think the art to using him will consist of a flood of bodies or vehicles around him, or both.

[jaxom]

Target saturation, definitely. If they focus on Guilliman then there should be a hammer untouched waiting to wallop them and vice-versa. 

[Cruor Vault]

 

 

You set the model back up, out of engagement range. It doesn't matter if they declared a charge before or not.

 

Also the same unit can't declare a 2nd charge, unfortunately.

True, but what part of the rules states you don't then proceed to resolve the rest of the charge process? He's alive and on the table once overwatch has been resolved exactly as if he passed his saves/didn't take any damage from overwatch.

 

You're assuming his "death" means he loses the rest of his actions?

Because the unit has been removed and then re-deployed. Actions you had declared prior don't occur after Re-deployment.

 

 

I know you think thats a thing, but in the interest of judging this fairly, I'd challenge you to actually show me where in the 9th edition rules where it says that.  I glanced over the Core PDF and was unable to locate anything.

 

Using 8th edition examples as a reference, Da Jump! is the closest comparison and it was specifically FAQ'ed that units kept any status effects even though the unit was removed from the table and then re-deployed.

[emperorpants]

Not sure how much Guilliman dies to Overwatch but it can happen. In the shooting phase as normal this is a very real threat of him being shot by the next unit, or to a lesser degree in the assault phase etc.

It's not game breaking for Guilliman, but something to bear in mind. I think the art to using him will consist of a flood of bodies or vehicles around him, or both.

Maybe a couple dreads that can shoot and fight. That way they can make use of Guilliman's auras and can charge in with him to crush things in melee while still using his auras. Maybe even backed up by an ancient (if you have space in a detachment) with our banner to allow more attacks. Aggressors could fulfill this purpose too.

 

Hmm. Now that I think about it, I may be coming around to occasionally outflanking Guilliman. It could work ok with some Gravis boys. I'm thinking some eradicators and aggressors at the same time with Guilliman. Even if you fail the charge at least you could have some tougher units to protect Guilliman, and their shooting with his aura will be horrifying. It would be expensive cp wise, but Guillimans 3 cp bonus will help.

Edited July 15, 2020 by emperorpants