New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

 

You set the model back up, out of engagement range. It doesn't matter if they declared a charge before or not.

Also the same unit can't declare a 2nd charge, unfortunately.

 

True, but what part of the rules states you don't then proceed to resolve the rest of the charge process? He's alive and on the table once overwatch has been resolved exactly as if he passed his saves/didn't take any damage from overwatch.

You're assuming his "death" means he loses the rest of his actions?

Because the unit has been removed and then re-deployed. Actions you had declared prior don't occur after Re-deployment.

 

I know you think thats a thing, but in the interest of judging this fairly, I'd challenge you to actually show me where in the 9th edition rules where it says that.  I glanced over the Core PDF and was unable to locate anything.

 

Using 8th edition examples as a reference, Da Jump! is the closest comparison and it was specifically FAQ'ed that units kept any status effects even though the unit was removed from the table and then re-deployed.

Yeah shaggy please back up your claim .

[Cruor Vault]

 

Not sure how much Guilliman dies to Overwatch but it can happen. In the shooting phase as normal this is a very real threat of him being shot by the next unit, or to a lesser degree in the assault phase etc.

It's not game breaking for Guilliman, but something to bear in mind. I think the art to using him will consist of a flood of bodies or vehicles around him, or both.

Maybe a couple dreads that can shoot and fight. That way they can make use of Guilliman's auras and can charge in with him to crush things in melee while still using his auras. Maybe even backed up by an ancient (if you have space in a detachment) with our banner to allow more attacks. Aggressors could fulfill this purpose too.

 

Hmm. Now that I think about it, I may be coming around to occasionally outflanking Guilliman. It could work ok with some Gravis boys. I'm thinking some eradicators and aggressors at the same time with Guilliman. Even if you fail the charge at least you could have some tougher units to protect Guilliman, and their shooting with his aura will be horrifying. It would be expensive cp wise, but Guillimans 3 cp bonus will help.

 

 

Redemptor Dreads are going to become VERY popular once people realize how well they work in 9th.  Anything that on it's own can kill a 5-man MEQ with 5++ equivalent in a single turn is going to be golden in 9th. 

 

Once the community accepts that death balls aren't the most optimal way to approach the game, fast moving dreads are going to rock. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Redemptors are pure gold as are relic Contemptors with twin las and they actually got a point break which is amazing. Personally I see Ultramarines and Iron Hands as the two primogenitor Chapters going into ninth with the latter in the top spot. I hope that a new codex and supplements are at least a year out. If they were to drop next month we will be crushed by codex creep alone.

[CCE1981]

How did Contemptor Mortis Dreadnoughts get a point break? I see them as more expensive. Unless you mean that they only went up by 10%. As opposed to the standard 15%.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m talking about relic contemptors.

[CCE1981]

Ah

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They are pure gold now .

[CCE1981]

I was running three Contemptor Mortis Dreadnoughts early 8th. Just crazy their firepower.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

 

You set the model back up, out of engagement range. It doesn't matter if they declared a charge before or not.

 

Also the same unit can't declare a 2nd charge, unfortunately.

True, but what part of the rules states you don't then proceed to resolve the rest of the charge process? He's alive and on the table once overwatch has been resolved exactly as if he passed his saves/didn't take any damage from overwatch.

 

You're assuming his "death" means he loses the rest of his actions?

Because the unit has been removed and then re-deployed. Actions you had declared prior don't occur after Re-deployment.

I know you think thats a thing, but in the interest of judging this fairly, I'd challenge you to actually show me where in the 9th edition rules where it says that. I glanced over the Core PDF and was unable to locate anything.

 

Using 8th edition examples as a reference, Da Jump! is the closest comparison and it was specifically FAQ'ed that units kept any status effects even though the unit was removed from the table and then re-deployed.

The model is reduced to 0 wounds and removed. Then you roll a 4+ and re-deploy it outside of engagement range.

 

If it happened during overwatch it wouldn't matter if you made it or not. You have declared a charge, the model is then reduced to 0 wounds as it charges, the model is removed. In effect you've already charged, and were killed in the overwatch for doing so.

 

You don't get to charge again after re-deploying. You've already charged prior to that when the model was reduced to 0 wounds. Once you redeploy that counts as an action and has taken place after the charge.

If the model was removed and returned prior to the assault phase then yes, you can charge - but then overwatch wouldn't have taken place.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

Oooo I have a Redemptor! A natural tag team partner for a Relic Contemptor.

 

I know folk love the double heavy weapons, but a single heavy weapon and close combat weapon on a Relic Contemptor is a beast! He and the Redemptor will move 9" and 8" respectively, marching up the table putting fire on opponents, charging in after.

 

I think this will be my staple in 9th.

 

Maybe a couple dreads that can shoot and fight. That way they can make use of Guilliman's auras and can charge in with him to crush things in melee while still using his auras. Maybe even backed up by an ancient (if you have space in a detachment) with our banner to allow more attacks. Aggressors could fulfill this purpose too.

Hmm.

 

Now that I think about it, I may be coming around to occasionally outflanking Guilliman. It could work ok with some Gravis boys. I'm thinking some eradicators and aggressors at the same time with Guilliman. Even if you fail the charge at least you could have some tougher units to protect Guilliman, and their shooting with his aura will be horrifying. It would be expensive cp wise, but Guillimans 3 cp bonus will help.

It's always wise to try ;)

 

If you're bringing on a unit from reserves (Outflank, natural ability etc) the consider Veil of Time on a Librarian for the Reroll charge, alongside being within 12" of Guilliman for his +1 benefit.

[Paulinus]

So I played Calgar last night. I used him to outflank with 3 aggressors on turn 2.

 

The game was already decided by that point in my favour.

 

I got turn one and just wrecked the admech army I was facing.

 

Was able to take out two of three of the admech chicken walkers and was able to secure that quarter even more than I had. On his turn two he landed a large group of the new bat guys (I forget their names) but some 50 shots using the Mars strat to cause mortal wounds took out the three agressors. Calgar then charged on turn three and messed them up good in melee after being softened up by other shooting.

 

Keep in mind that this was only one of a few games so far so still not all fleshed out.

 

My list was:

 

Battalion

Calgar

Tigurius

Phobos Librarian

 

5man Intercessor squad w/autobolters and TH

5 man Intercessor squad w/stalker bolter

5 man Incursor squad

 

3 man bolt storm Agressors

5 man Sternguard with HB

Relic Contemptor with Twin las, DCC and Storm bolter and Cyclone ML

Invictor warsuit

 

5 man Dev with Grav cannon and cherub, Sgt w/storm bolter

Thunderfire

Eliminator squad Sgt/instigator carbine

 

Drop pod

Impulsor w/shield dome

 

Auxiliary det

 

5x vanguard vets with chainsword and SS. Relic blade on the Sgt

 

 

Mission 2 (Front Line warfare) was being used

My secondaries were Engage on all fronts, Psychic Ritual, Bring it down

 

I won’t bore anyone with all the details but will discuss some highlights.

 

Deployment

 

Having rapid redeployment in our back pocket is a great tool. I deployed aggressively with the warsuit, the relic contemptor and the incursors with the Phobos librarian (in the center to get the ritual off). I deployed this way to hopefully get first turn but would still be able to redeploy the the contemptor, the warsuit and my impulsor if I went second.

 

I went first. I still paid 2 CP to redeploy the contemptor as he deployed two disentegrator tanks away from him.

 

This strat is going to be our go to for deployment.

 

Game itself. Getting first turn allowed me to move the Impulsor up on an objective while,also dumping out the auto bolter troops and Tigurius to join the center to ensure the ritual would go off and add more bodies to screen the Psykers.

 

The drop pod landed on the opposite objective and disgorged then sternguard and dev squad near it as well and still rain shots on whatever. The disentegrators being the targets.

 

The relic contemptor was able to get near the drop pod to also shoot the vehicles.

 

Thunderfire was used to neutralise his units with snipers. 6 man squads with snipers in them. Getting 12 shots with the Thunderfire is pretty good. Plus I had selected one of those squads to be the target unit for the seal of oath that the techmarine gunner had.

 

Vanguard vets bubble wrapped the TF in case something came down too close to it on turn two (he had a 10 man infiltrator unit and two ten man bat units that can DS)

 

The invictor was able to move up, shoot up his plasma battle servitors then charge a disintegrator and a unit of those new dog units with snipers rifles.

 

After that it was over. I spent turn two finishing off what he had including cawl who charged a severely damaged invictor that exploded and taking him with him.

 

Calgar on the flank with the Agressors taking out his remaining anti tank.

 

As mentioned by someone, a relic contemptor with DDC and a twin las is a flexible unit. And much cheaper now,

 

So overall

 

- Calgar was ok outflanking but the game was so short it was hard to tell

- Rapid redeploy is too good not to use

- Grav Pod is still viable and even more now with a point reduction.

- Thunderfire still does work but pricey. I doubt we’ll see three in a list anymore and needs a lot more babysitting

- Aggressors were good in a 3 man unit. They will get targeted so might as well just lose 3. Outflank helps them tremendously.

- Impulsors. Take two if you can. Great for the objective game.

- I think Incursors will be our go to infiltrators

- Invictor warsuit. Went up in price. I used to play them in pairs but even one can ruin your opponents day if you get first turn.

- psychic Ritual is actually not a bad secondary but his army had no way to deny. But casting empiric channeling on Tigurius means that it will be hard to stop even if they have some deniers. Also the Phobos Librarian can pretty much get the first action off on turn one. Make sure you have two Psykers and a solid meat shield. High risk but high reward.

 

A few minor observations but these were the stand outs.

 

Note: my opponent deployed hoping for turn one. I’m notoriously consistant in never getting first turn so he made some assumptions. It cost him the game. And we are still getting used to how 9th works.

[Cruor Vault]

 

 

 

 

You set the model back up, out of engagement range. It doesn't matter if they declared a charge before or not.

 

Also the same unit can't declare a 2nd charge, unfortunately.

True, but what part of the rules states you don't then proceed to resolve the rest of the charge process? He's alive and on the table once overwatch has been resolved exactly as if he passed his saves/didn't take any damage from overwatch.

 

You're assuming his "death" means he loses the rest of his actions?

Because the unit has been removed and then re-deployed. Actions you had declared prior don't occur after Re-deployment.

I know you think thats a thing, but in the interest of judging this fairly, I'd challenge you to actually show me where in the 9th edition rules where it says that. I glanced over the Core PDF and was unable to locate anything.

 

Using 8th edition examples as a reference, Da Jump! is the closest comparison and it was specifically FAQ'ed that units kept any status effects even though the unit was removed from the table and then re-deployed.

The model is reduced to 0 wounds and removed. Then you roll a 4+ and re-deploy it outside of engagement range.

 

If it happened during overwatch it wouldn't matter if you made it or not. You have declared a charge, the model is then reduced to 0 wounds as it charges, the model is removed. In effect you've already charged, and were killed in the overwatch for doing so.

 

You don't get to charge again after re-deploying. You've already charged prior to that when the model was reduced to 0 wounds. Once you redeploy that counts as an action and has taken place after the charge.

If the model was removed and returned prior to the assault phase then yes, you can charge - but then overwatch wouldn't have taken place.

 

 

Once again, where does it say any of this in the rules?

 

You also seem to think that being removed and set back up again negates the remainder of Guilliman's actions for the phase and/or cancel the charge, I again challenge you to show me this in the rules.  

 

Like I said, I know you THINK this, but you need to show us ANY supporting evidence.

[Ishagu]

You declare a charge, the moment you do the action has taken place. You can fail the charge or your unit can be destroyed in overwatch, but the charge has still taken place. The sequence ends with you reaching combat, failing to reach it, or being destroyed. That was the charge action for that unit.

After you have been destroyed you roll a dice, and on a 4+ you can be set up again outside of engagement range, closest to where you were prior.

You don't get to charge again, you already did and you failed to reach combat due to the overwatch. This is all pretty straightforward.


Now you show me where it says the same unit can charge twice lol

Edited July 16, 2020 by Ishagu

[tychobi]

No where does it say you stop charging if you "die". Usually the model is removed but if it is not for some reason (reserect, ignore wound, armor save, whatever) why would the charge miss?

[Paulinus]

So is this being interpreted correctly?

 

I looked at the FAQ. It only says to change the 2nd sentence.

 

The para has three sentences.

 

The second sentence is about rolling The D6 at the end of the phase when destroyed for the first time.

 

The third sentence details the conditions of him being returned to the game.

 

The FAQ says replace the 2nd sentence. The third sentence still stands but seems redundant as the 2nd sentence covers that part.

 

If we omit the original 2nd sentence we no longer have the conditions that outline when we roll 4+

 

What we are missing in the FAQ is when we actually roll for the 4+. It also deletes the condition that limits this ability to only when destroyed for the first time. Meaning this could be done multiple times.

 

To be honest I think this was just a mistake as I believe that it was meant to replace the third sentence.

 

If that is the case, then the condition that indicates that this roll happens at the end of the phase. If it happens at the end of the charge phase then no, Guilliman cannot make the charge. As that part of the charge phase has already passed by the time you get to the end of the phase.

 

If we go RAW then Guilliman could roll his 4+ at any time in any turn as there is no limitation on when that roll can be made. I think this was a mistake and will need to be fixed.

[Cruor Vault]

You declare a charge, the moment you do the action has taken place. You can fail the charge or your unit can be destroyed in overwatch, but the charge has still taken place. The sequence ends with you reaching combat, failing to reach it, or being destroyed. That was the charge action for that unit.

 

After you have been destroyed you roll a dice, and on a 4+ you can be set up again outside of engagement range, closest to where you were prior.

 

You don't get to charge again, you already did and you failed to reach combat due to the overwatch. This is all pretty straightforward.

 

 

Now you show me where it says the same unit can charge twice lol

 

Ok...  One last try at this.

 

I am NOT saying Guilliman charges a second time. 

 

I am saying that the results of the initial charge action are resolved as normal once Guilliman gets back up.  NOTHING in the rules states his charge is failed by the triggering of the Armor of Fate's resurrection.  I have checked the Charge phase of the 9th edition quick start PDF as well as the overwatch stratagem in the 4chan leaks.  I even searched the entire Quick start PDF to for every instance of the word "Destroyed" and could not find anything to support your argument.

 

You cannot show me where is says his charge is automatically failed because it DOES NOT EXIST.  

 

If the charge is not automatically failed, then the game proceeds as normal.

 

-------

 

Let's look at this another way.  Ask yourself these questions:

 

After resolving Overwatch is Guilliman on the table? YES

 

Did Guilliman previously declare a charge before overwatch was resolved? YES

 

Are there any restrictions on Guilliman's movement in the charge phase at this point?  NO

 

Is there anything in the rules stating that Guilliman's charge is considered failed at this point?  NO

 

So what is stopping the charge he declared from resolving?  NOTHING

 

Finally...  This is NOT intended as an insult, but rather a learning opportunity.  This article is about video games, but the lessons it teaches directly apply to the argument at hand and why I am confident that barring a FAQ from GW you are completely wrong on this one.

[Cruor Vault]

So is this being interpreted correctly?

 

I looked at the FAQ. It only says to change the 2nd sentence.

 

The para has three sentences.

 

The second sentence is about rolling The D6 at the end of the phase when destroyed for the first time.

 

The third sentence details the conditions of him being returned to the game.

 

The FAQ says replace the 2nd sentence. The third sentence still stands but seems redundant as the 2nd sentence covers that part.

 

If we omit the original 2nd sentence we no longer have the conditions that outline when we roll 4+

 

What we are missing in the FAQ is when we actually roll for the 4+. It also deletes the condition that limits this ability to only when destroyed for the first time. Meaning this could be done multiple times.

 

To be honest I think this was just a mistake as I believe that it was meant to replace the third sentence.

 

If that is the case, then the condition that indicates that this roll happens at the end of the phase. If it happens at the end of the charge phase then no, Guilliman cannot make the charge. As that part of the charge phase has already passed by the time you get to the end of the phase.

 

If we go RAW then Guilliman could roll his 4+ at any time in any turn as there is no limitation on when that roll can be made. I think this was a mistake and will need to be fixed.

 

Yeah, I bet you're right.  The whole argument is pointless as soon as this is corrected.

[Ishagu]

But Guilliman isn't on the table after resolving overwatch, if he lost his last wound. You do remove him, as normal.

 

The Armour of Fate allows you to put him back after he has been removed.

 

There is no rule that says he remains on the table with zero wounds. You take him off as normal, and other units can even occupy the space where he was previously placed.

 

Overwatch kills him, he failed his charge, he is removed.

If you roll 4+ you then re-deploy him.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Ishagu

[Paulinus]

Do we have anything that states when he makes his roll?

 

Right now with the FAQ and RAW it does not. Meaning it could be done at anytime in the game. Even if he’s still alive and multiple times.

 

The old rule says at the end of the phase but that sentence has been replaced. But the FAQ hasn’t removed the third sentence which leads me to think they meant replace the 3rd sentence as both are essentially the same thing.

[Ishagu]

Common sense would say you make the roll after removing him, but it's worth noting that he has still been removed - even if it wasn't ultimately permanent.

 

This is actually interesting.

 

I've just read the rule. It simply says on a 4+ they are set up as close to where they were destroyed.

I think it's pretty simple. They are destroyed, removed, you roll the dice, set him back up.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Ishagu

[Paulinus]

But Guilliman isn't on the table after resolving overwatch, if he lost his last wound. You do remove him, as normal.

The Armour of Fate allows you to put him back after he has been removed.

Yes but that would happen after the overwatch step. You would then proceed to the move charger step which has yet to be resolved. Did guilliman declare a charge? Yes.

 

He was shot with overwatch. He is destroyed. He is replaced assuming that is when he is replaced (the jury is still out on that one). The you roll to charge, that part has not yet been done. He charges.

 

It looks wonky yes but nothing limits you from carrying end. Nothing says the charge phase ends or that he can’t charge.

 

This is why the FAQ needs cleaning up. It does not even state when he rolls his 4+ or that he is even limited to doing it one time or even before he dies.

Common sense would say you make the roll after removing him, but it's worth noting that he has still been removed - even if it wasn't ultimately permanent.

Sure but the previous iteration was clear on where and when you do this.

 

This current one does not.

[Ishagu]

Being destroyed takes place after you declared the charge, so that's where that step ends.

 

You charge, but the overwatch stops you by destroying the unit. The charge is over.

 

The unit has been redeployed after that point, literally you set him back up. You CAN declare a charge with a unit that has been set up, but you already declared one earlier - the one that failed in the overwatch.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Ishagu

[tychobi]

Being destroyed takes place after you declared the charge, so that's where that step ends.

 

You charge, but the overwatch stops you by destroying the unit. The charge is over.

 

The unit has been redeployed after that point, literally you set him back up. You CAN declare a charge with a unit that has been set up, but you already declared one earlier - the one that failed in the overwatch.

Where does it say the charge failed?

[Paulinus]

Being destroyed takes place after you declared the charge, so that's where that step ends.

You charge, but the overwatch stops you by destroying the unit. The charge is over.

The unit has been redeployed after that point, literally you set him back up.

Nowhere does it state that it ends though or that destroying stops the charge. You assume it does but that isn’t supported by any rule. Redeployed or not. The closest comparable is maybe the Ynari Incarn. It redeploys after something dies but is very specific that it cannot charge after doing so. We have no such limit on Gman at this time.

 

 

All the conditions to make the charge roll are met. Overwatch happens after the charge is declared. Overwatch happens and the effects take place after which the model rolls to charge. Nowhere does it state that the phase ends when the model is removed because you still have parts of the charge phase that are still active which conditions met.

 

Correcting the FAQ is all that is required.

 

You mentioned a Facebook post, do you have a link in can use to reference?

[Ishagu]

Where does it say you can declare an action, re-deploy, then carry out the earlier action?

 

There are multiple units that can re-deploy, the precedent already exists.

 

Unless I see an FAQ to the contrary this looks like an attempt at bending the rules or looking to squeeze an advantage out.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Ishagu