New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[Ishagu]

The strats were indeed removed, unfortunately.

 

If we'd kept ours, playing up to our rep as Tactical masters, then I'd say we were in a good spot.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There’s a strat for one unit to switch back to tactical but I think it’s only for a phase.

[Ishagu]

Yeah, it's a good Strat but it only works on infantry.

 

The Iron Hands have a version of the same Strat that works on everything.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Sounds like yer a bit jelly there ...

[Cruor Vault]

Yeah, it's a good Strat but it only works on infantry.

 

The Iron Hands have a version of the same Strat that works on everything.

 

We've also got the WL trait that lets us set any unit (regardless of type) into tactical doctrine.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I feel the Ultras need a third trait to be added to their CT.

Iron Hands have:

-6+++

-Double the wounds for purpose of using damage profile

-Over-watch on a 5+ (This one is amazing and underrated)

I'm actually happy with Ultras being able to leave combat and shoot, it's nice to suffer less penalty to being assaulted. The leadership boost is also quite nice, it has saved models for me in various games as I prefer to run 10 man squads of Intercessors.

What could that third trait be? I'm not quite sure. We could look at the type of rules Ultras have been granted in 30k? They could gain re-rolls to Advances (but not charges), or re-rolls to overwatch, or striking 1st when they have been assaulted? That kind of thing

I thought being able to move and shoot in tactical doctrine is pretty much our third trait.

[Ishagu]

Sounds like yer a bit jelly there ...

No, not really. But we have to be honest about the chapter's shortcomings so we can improve as players, plan accordingly and ultimately relay the data to GW.

[Subtleknife]

 

 

What about in the assault phase they can immediately switch into the assault doctrine (they can then use the stratagem to slip back into the tactical phase once more before being forced back into the assault doctrine). That would give some propper tactical flexibility in a turn. I think playing with the doctrines should be the Ultras schtick.

The might be feasible, but might also be stepping on other Chapter's toes.

 

I'd need to check the FAQ, but weren't the stratagems to roll back doctrines removed? Or did Ultras get to keep theirs? I'd be worried that with no way of going back to Tactical Doctrine, any ability to switch to Assault would always be overshadowed by keeping Scions of Guilliman active for as long as possible.

Yep we have one that can roll back an infantry unit but that is it. Personally I think ultras should have been the one chapter to be able to change when they want. I dont think that will have made them op if they had to be BF and maybe a strat to roll back into a previous doctrine. But oh well, I shall keep playing the boys in blue regardless because even though they arent the strongest, they look might fine whilst they do their job

[Toxichobbit]

Shame about the stratagems. In that case, I can honestly see me rarely, if ever, wanting to switch from Tactical Doctrine to Assault Doctrine before I have to. Being able to keep 1 (2 with the Warlord Trait) units in Tactical doesn't come close to turns when the entire army is in Tactical. Sadly I think the ability to push into Assault in the combat phase would be largely irrelevant next to staying in Tactical for the Scions of Guilliman bonus.

 

Except for on turn 3 - you're going to be in Assault Doctrine at the start of turn 4 anyway, so you'd want to weigh up the advantage of getting AP-1 in your turn 3 & following combat phase compared to Overwatch in your opponents next turn being AP-1.

 

 

I thought being able to move and shoot in tactical doctrine is pretty much our third trait.

 

 

That's a reasonable way of looking at it. But if you're doing that, then you have to apply that logic equally. So using Ishagu's post about the Chater Trait as an example, change out all mentions of Iron Hands third trait to say fourth trait and add being able to ignore the penalty for moving and re-roll 1s for heavy weapons while in Devastator Doctrine to their list of traits.

 

The point still stands, whether we have 2 traits and Iron Hands have 3, or as you think of it we have 3 traits and Iron Hands have 4.

 

 

No, not really. But we have to be honest about the chapter's shortcomings so we can improve as players, plan accordingly and ultimately relay the data to GW.

 

 

Exactly this. It's not about being jealous, or being upset about not being the best or anything like that. It's about getting closer to all Chapters being balanced. If I cared enough about other Chapters I'd be saying the same things about them (especially Scars).
 

[emperorpants]

Little update for Guilliman, it seems that monsters can shoot when in combat just like tanks. Since Guilliman has the monster keyword, unless that changes in 9th, he will be able to shoot while in combat as well.

 

Also, I have echo things said by other posters: this is about keeping things balanced, which makes for a better game experience. It's not about being the best or op as a crutch, it's about making sure no chapter lags to far behind the others. Right now, imo, Ultras seem to be getting progressively weaker. Especially when compared with other chapters.

 

Each new update seems to take more and more of our abilities and hand them out to everyone else. This diminishes us compared to others. At least it seems that way to me, and I'm not alone in feeling that way obviously. I wouldn't want it to happen to any army honestly. Now, GW may have taken this all into account in 9th and things will be just fine. Who knows. We will find out relatively soon.

Edited May 26, 2020 by emperorpants

[emperorpants]

For yet MORE things that seem like they are going to weaken our chapter tactic, apparently there is going to be a universal strat for punishing units that fall out of combat. My guess is that it will be causing mortal wounds to a unit that falls out of combat. Could be something better or worse of course. Regardless, our CT takes yet ANOTHER hit. *sigh*

 

This will of course give us even LESS incentive to use our CT for tanks, when we could just stay stuck in combat and shoot with no penalties.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

We don’t really know how the end of the assault phase is going to work so claiming our CT just got worse is purely speculative. Ultramarines are still the most tactical Chapter there is and the flexibility wins games. I’m really not a Mary Sue over here constantly gushing about our boiz in blue being the bestest Eva... what I can say is I played a lot of armies in eighth edition and coming back to them was the best feeling... really made be appreciate everything about them. Of course I’m not here to hold anyone’s hand and give them a pat on the head either. :D

 

Monsters are also going to be able to enter terrain such as ruins and that’s a fact - Guilliman just got even more better.

[Ishagu]

I hope he can indeed enter ruins. I have a feeling he still won't be able to pass through walls, however. We'll have to wait and see.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I listened to the interview... 

[Ishagu]

If monsters can cross than it's a great boost, I'll be happy with that.

 

I'll have a look at the transcript of the full Q&A. I didn't get a chance to watch it live.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Ishagu

[Cruor Vault]

If LD is really going to be more important in 9th, it might be very beneficial for us to have our currently mostly useless +1LD.

[emperorpants]

We don’t really know how the end of the assault phase is going to work so claiming our CT just got worse is purely speculative. Ultramarines are still the most tactical Chapter there is and the flexibility wins games. I’m really not a Mary Sue over here constantly gushing about our boiz in blue being the bestest Eva... what I can say is I played a lot of armies in eighth edition and coming back to them was the best feeling... really made be appreciate everything about them. Of course I’m not here to hold anyone’s hand and give them a pat on the head either. :D

 

Monsters are also going to be able to enter terrain such as ruins and that’s a fact - Guilliman just got even more better.

I can respect that perspective. It is true that we don't know how things will shake out in 9th. We shall see. Still, this thread is for speculation, and given what we know so far about 9th, this all seems like pretty hefty nerfs, barring Guilliman so far. Of course, I'd be happy to be wrong about that, and it's a distinct possibility that I am, given how little we know of 9th. My gut tells me I'm right, but we'll see, I'd be happy to be proven wrong in this instance.

[Ishagu]

I couldn't find anything in the transcript about monsters being able to go through walls or enter ruins/buildings.

Just some stuff on being able to hit stuff on the 2nd level, similar to the Knight Strat possibly.

 

If Guilliman can't cross then he still won't be our character of choice.

 

Penalties to leaving combat is a real thing, and unless I hear about an exception granted to the Ultras then I'll assume it's going to impact us negatively by taking away some of the flexibility.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

Yeah, hopefully Guilliman gets some boosts. From what i have been able to gather, morale checks might be cumulative. So yeah, our leadership bonus may become useful, along with our strat that gives a leadership buff. Edited May 26, 2020 by emperorpants

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Ishagu I literally heard a developer say it. ^^

[Subtleknife]

They also said that all the psychic awakening stuff would be rolled into codex etc and updated to fit with 9th. I wonder if that will mean that some of the victrix guard stuff will roll over to these new primaris primarily the sword and board dudes.

[CCE1981]

I play Successors, in the two dozen or so games I’ve played I have regretted not being able to fall back and shoot three times, and one of those times I cast Smite and the situation was rectified. Usually what is left of a squad is marginal useful shooting at best.

 

I just have never really found the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic that worth it. I love the customization that I get from the current codex. I hope any of the new rules that come out don’t hinder that aspect.

 

As for these new models I am definitely excited, there are definitely holes that are being filled there.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I use my my DevCents (-1 to hit thanks to Tiggy) sometimes to take enemy charges and use positioning so they can’t be wrapped. Cassius gives them +1 to hit then they absolutely shred after falling back.

 

I like all the new models I’ve seen... really liking the new bikers and assault Intercessors.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[emperorpants]

My favorite new units are the melta dudes (hellfuries?), swole guard (thanks for that one fly, haha, these are the sword guys), and the bikes.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Swole Guard are gonna rawk !!!!