New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[Ishagu]

I really like the look of the Melta Aggressors too. Can't wait to see their rules.

[Toxichobbit]

 

Monsters are also going to be able to enter terrain such as ruins and that’s a fact - Guilliman just got even more better.

 

Could you give a time stamp for where you heard that in the Q&A please?

 

I couldn't find anything in the transcript about monsters being able to go through walls or enter ruins/buildings.

Just some stuff on being able to hit stuff on the 2nd level, similar to the Knight Strat possibly.

 

If Guilliman can't cross then he still won't be our character of choice.

 

Penalties to leaving combat is a real thing, and unless I hear about an exception granted to the Ultras then I'll assume it's going to impact us negatively by taking away some of the flexibility.

I listened to the entire Q&A specifically to see if this was true. The transcripts are accurate, as far as I can tell. They certainly talk about monsters being able to attack models on steps or the second floor, giving Carnifex and Hive Tyrants as examples. But there was no specific mention about monsters being able to enter ruins or go through walls.  It's probably a fairly safe assumption that if they intend for monsters to be able to attack things on the second floor because it makes sense, then moving through walls and entering ruins also makes sense and will probably be in there. But, it's still an assumption.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I didn’t have a timer running. :(

[Subtleknife]

I am really thinking of doing a conversion using bits of the invictarus suzerains from forgeworld with the new sword a board dudes. I reckon helmets, shields, axes, shoulder pads would be easily fit. I reckon the chest and tabbard bits would fit as well with some clipping and sanding. I presume no one would throw a hissy fit if the guys with the axes actually counter as swords.

[Toxichobbit]

I like the sound of morale being more impactful. It's kind of a joke for a lot of armies at the moment, Astartes included. The obvious benefit to us is that it makes the Ld increase from our Chater Tactic better, which is nice as it's kind of irrelevant most of the time. But I also like that it'll make Ld debuffs like Reivers, Night Lords etc more viable.

 

On the down side, I do worry that it's going to further cement MSU as the way to play. I'd like it to be equally viable, or close to equally viable to take MSU or larger units.

 

I didn’t have a timer running.

No worries :). Lets hope you're right about monsters being able to enter ruins etc. Like I said it makes sense so I don't see why they wouldn't make that change.

[emperorpants]

I really like the look of the Melta Aggressors too. Can't wait to see their rules.

Indeed. How tasty would it be if they got the shoot twice if they didn't move rule? That would be amazing for us.

[Captain Idaho]

I heard them say it also. I listened to the repeated video today because the transcripts aren't transcripts - they're people jotting down what they heard from their perspective.

 

An example is I have seen folk say (not here) that Monsters are getting a whole load of abilities to be better than tanks, because the designers said "monsters can do everything what tanks can do but better".

 

However, this was out of context. They were referring to monsters being generally better in melee due to better stats etc.

 

***

 

Regarding the Ultramarines - it appears getting out of combat requires CP support? Or at least CP support will affect getting out of combat.

 

It's hard to know really as they weren't that clear whilst talking about it and weren't pressed for a clearer answer. However, Ultramarines having a free get out of combat with just a native -1 to hit is pretty good and our units will enjoy not having a modifier beyond -1 (so heavy weapons) thus be more dangerous.

[Ishagu]

I just watched the vid. They mention striking models above you, but there's nothing about a monster crossing walls or ruins.

Hitting stuff above is still a bit of a boost, will probably work the same as the Knight Strat.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I distinctly remember them saying monsters can move into ruins .

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah, they didn't say you could jump over a wall, but the context of the discussion was monsters can now move into ruins, so it is implied.

[Ishagu]

They only spoke about hitting models on the level above the ground floor. That's something a Knight can do without ever entering a ruin.

 

I wouldn't assume anything at this point. I hope you guys are correct but they never mentioned entering a ruin or crossing walls, etc once.

[Ishagu]

So apparently you have to purchase detachments outside the one your warlord is in by using CP.

 

This is another nerf to Guilliman potentially, as he is a LoW in his own detachment.

[Toxichobbit]

So apparently you have to purchase detachments outside the one your warlord is in by using CP.

 

This is another nerf to Guilliman potentially, as he is a LoW in his own detachment.

If they don't change detachments then yeah, that's a definite nerf. I struggle to consider Guilliman with his current points cost. Add a CP on top of that and he's going into the figure case permanently. Depending on the CP cost for different detachments, it might also be unwise to make him the warlord, which is very much against the games lore e.g. Supreme Command costs 1CP, Battalion costs 2 CP - you're always going to have your Warlord in the Battalion to offset the CP cost and Guilliman has to be in the Supreme Command.

 

At least he's not a Stompa, I couldn't imagine how I'd feel if I owned one of those and it now cost CP on top of it's massively overpriced points cost.

 

However, detachments are in the main rulebook so could well be changed. There might be a LoW slot in whatever the new version of the Battalion is, which would sidestep all of these potential issues. Hopefully that's the case and we don't need to worry about it.

 

I have a suspicion that we're going to see detachments return to Codices too. Now that you pay for them, they could use them in a similar way to the way they work in AoS. The only difference is that you're paying CP, not points.

[Ishagu]

Maybe the new Battalion detachment has a LoW slot. That would be a help, but still not perfect. I think GW messed up by not making him a HQ, and pricing him too high.

 

I personally like to run the model but I don't want to be punished for it. If I'm nerfing my army to include him he will be dropped.

[Subtleknife]

They did say that they releasing faqs for all the deqs to bring them in line I believe. Gman could very well have a minor change so he isnt overly nerfed. I think it will just be one of those things of wait and see.

[Toxichobbit]

I agree, I think he should be a HQ. If Ghaz is a HQ and Abaddon is a HQ and Szeras is potentially a HQ*, then Guilliman should definitely be a HQ. He's mechanically no different to any of the others and the whole "major HQs being LoW" is a relic from 7th that should be as dead as that edition of the game is.

 

The problem is, we probably won't see a change like that until a new Codex, which may or may not be early in the editions life cycle. While there's definitly a good reason for an early Marine Codex, given the amount of new stuff we've got coming, there's also a good reason for there to be one later as the current one is good, they don't need a new Codex for new models and, from a selfish perspective early Codices usually suffer from being left behind as design paradigms change and the edition matures. It'd actually be nice not to need a second Codex in an edition because the first one is good, for once.

 

So for now, I'll hope that LoW are in the new Battalion. Plus that works for other armies that have access to super heavies, like Baneblades, Lords of Battle, Obelisks, Stompas etc.

 

* unknown yet though I suspect he will be, we'll have to see how that one pans out.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve never seen so much speculation in my life... Henny Penny must be rolling over in her grave. :D

[Toxichobbit]

I’ve never seen so much speculation in my life... Henny Penny must be rolling over in her grave.

Would you rather we just don't bother talking about it? Because that's the alternative. If we'd got something solid to go on it'd be easier to talk about the actual rules. But the preview was... sparse.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Dooms day based upon speculation yeah why even bother ? I don’t think the preview was sparse at all either.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

FLG have said that additional detachments that don't include your warlord will cost command points.

 

Unless the rules are changed quite a bit at release then the things we know are pointing towards multiple things that nerf our chapter or make it less unique.

 

The Ultramarines aren't meta busters, they perform at an average level in competitive play and what we've seen so far points to them being weaker in 9th. Maybe GW will address everything straight away, maybe they won't. They nerfed our Honour Guard for no reason so I don't feel they will.

 

For reference my AdMech Mars army now has better rules than my Ultras.

-No penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons turn 1 and 2

-Heavy Weapons gain +1 Str turn 1 and 2

-Hit rolls of 6 score an additional hit for units within 6" of Warlord.

-Shrouded turn 1 and 2

Edited May 28, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

Cor Ishagu, you go hot and cold with GW and new editions etc. One minute you tell everyone to stop moaning about a rule or new release then next it's all doom and gloom.

 

Personally, I think Ultramarines will be just fine. I don't think any single army will be particularly dominant over the others as GW have rebalance the game quite well the past few months and this goes a lot further to address the issues we all knew held players back.

 

Too early to tell? Sure. But colour me as half full.

 

***

 

The section they were talking about terrain was fixing anomalies that prevented units from interacting with it and odd situations. The example was a monster (Carnifex) couldn't assault a model up 2 stairs, which they have fixed amongst other things.

 

So it's up to us whether we presume they have fixed obvious problems like Monsters entering Ruins etc or make an assumption it was missed just because it was not mentioned specifically.

[Ishagu]

I think the edition will be better, but not for the Ultramarines, comparative to other factions. That's not a controversial statement in a topic about how the next edition will affect this faction specifically.

 

Having listened to the FLG podcast, they do talk about monsters interacting with units a floor up but once again, nothing about monsters moving through terrain the same way as infantry do. I think it's a shame that our faction doesn't have any rules specifically geared towards close combat and dealing more damage or dealing it more easily. Salamanders, as an example, have a 1cp Strat that adds 1 to the wound roll for an entire unit. I do think 9th will have a bigger focus on cc, but I think we're very weak as a chapter in that respect.

 

I will also add that giving every army more CP reduces the value of the one Ultramarine specific psychic power that was any good to begin with. I think our powers generally need an overhaul, but that's not linked to the edition specifically...

Edited May 28, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There are plenty of excellent melee units available to Ultramarines - of course we are more geared toward shooting so counter assaults is what we do. Yeah what Cap said Ishagu you really run hot and cold... somebody like you should be a champion of our Chapter rather than such a negative Nancy... well at least you’ve got your cogboiz now so that’s something.

 

I am certain every faction will get an faq when the new edition drops so just hold onto your horses. :D

Edited May 28, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Ishagu]

It's not about running hot and cold. I play this army, I know it's strengths and shortcomings. If we pretend it's the best and or that there's no downsides to playing it then we aren't going to help anyone.

 

I've got the Marine codex, and I own the UM, IH, RG supplements and the PA books featuring Blood Angels.

 

I feel that Ultramarines are lacking in several ways compared to other chapters, and having seen the rules hinted about in the next edition it appears that the few things we happened to be best at are going to be distributed around as general rules in one way or another to every other army.

 

Have you heard of Adrax Agatone? A 130 point Salamander character who deals as much damage to a Knight in combat as Guilliman does. Potentially we're going to have to pay CP to run our thematic units on top.

 

I am very positive about the new edition but very negative about the place of this particular army within it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Anything you don’t know for sure you should refrain from complaining. Adrax is great for Sallies but he doesn’t come close to touching our Primarch as the total package. I’ve played quite a few games versus other SM factions including the ones you mention - Blood Angels were the most scary but I managed to win all those games and my opponents were no slouches either.