New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[Ishagu]

No he doesn't, but you can have 3 of him for the price.

 

I've never said Ultramarines can't win, I'm saying they are far from the best or being on even footing with some Chapters, and that from what I've seen so far they will not be getting better whilst other factions will be.

 

You're asking me to assume that they will get a big FAQ that addresses my concerns? There's no evidence it will happen. If it does than great. I can still point out what we know to be true thus far.

[Captain Idaho]

Blood Angels are considered very powerful and possibly the best Marine army in 8th yet I've been having very good results against them.

 

The thing is, I never dropped Tactical Marines as the heavy weapon really helped across the board, I too 2 Hunters that most people don't bother with, I take Sternguard and Rhinos.

 

Why am I getting these results? Well because the gaps between armies isn't as large as folk may consider and also playing Killhammer doesn't win me games.

 

The designers talked about how missions are going to be "the 4th player", after 2 players and terrain. Missions will be critical in balancing the game.

 

Ultramarines love missions games and we can leave Killhammer to previous editions in my opinion.

 

Have faith we will come good.

 

***

 

Also, Psychic Awakening was confirmed as written with 9th in mind. Reading the Ultramarines Supplement you can see an odd reference to limits of CP generation and that plus the timing suggests the Supplements were at least partly written with 9th in mind. Certainly the fine tuning.

 

As such, I think the Ultramarines Chapter Trait will give large bonuses. Morale is apparently going to be wider which means our +1 Ld will count for a lot. Falling back and shooting for free (with maximum -1 to shoot) is likely going to save us CPs.

 

We shall see.

 

I've liked most of the changes so far and can't wait to see what details we get.

[Cruor Vault]

As such, I think the Ultramarines Chapter Trait will give large bonuses. Morale is apparently going to be wider which means our +1 Ld will count for a lot. Falling back and shooting for free (with maximum -1 to shoot) is likely going to save us CPs.

 

We shall see.

 

I've liked most of the changes so far and can't wait to see what details we get.

 

The stratagem 'Courage and Honour' (+1LD for all UM units) might turn out to be one of our BEST stratagems if the new moral rules and this "combat attrition" thing are as important as they claim.

[emperorpants]

I find the implication that we can't speculate about how the rules changes might affect us in a negative way silly. Why can't We? From what we know so far, it seems that these changes are going to be bad for our chapter. Do we have all the info? No. We are all fully aware that things might be different and things may be fine for us. Given the info we do have though, it seems like we are going to take a big hit. Yes, its all speculation, but that is what this thread is about.

 

On a different note, where is all this talk about leaving combat costing cp coming from? I've seen nothing that suggests that in the stream or anywhere else. Just curious.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Is mostly a select few that like to B&M here. The thread should retitled accordingly since you want to focus on what could be perceived as detrimental with no real supporting evidence. For example you can edit the title to be "Why Ultramsrines will not be competitive in 9th edition". That would be much more appropriate and honest regarding intent. This is the biggest garbage fire I’ve seen in a long time. /thumbsdown

Edited June 4, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Captain Idaho]

On a different note, where is all this talk about leaving combat costing cp coming from? I've seen nothing that suggests that in the stream or anywhere else. Just curious.

9 minutes 12 seconds into the video on Warhammer community twitch.

 

It isn't stated it would cost CP to leave combat, rather it was identified as a problem and then a loose sign off saying there's now core Strategums in place to help with that.

 

So we know the issue of easy fallback without penalty has been identified and they have said they have solved the issue. That would mean, logically speaking if they have solved the issue, our Chapter Trait has a benefit others do not.

[Ishagu]

If the unit leaving combat suffers damage or has to pay CP then our CT won't come into play as often, or potentially we won't use it at all.

 

If it's a leadership test then we should be OK, but that's not any sort of penalty so I doubt this will be it.

[emperorpants]

Is mostly a select few that like to B&M here. The thread should retitled accordingly since you want to focus on what could be perceived as detrimental with no real supporting evidence. For example you can edit the title to be "Why Ultramsrines will not be competitive in 9th edition". That would be much more appropriate and honest regarding intent.

I feel the thread title is fine. I have speculated positive changes as well, which you know, as I'm sure you've been paying attention. Both positive and negative speculation have happened and are in the purview of the thread title. :) So, I'll continue to call it like I see it, both positive and negative, as I don't have rose tinted glasses on about every aspect of the Ultras, as some here seem to. I'm sorry if you don't like it, but thems the breaks I guess. *shrugs shoulders*

[Subtleknife]

It will also be the only chapter tactic that requires CP or take damage to use which hardly seems fair if the murmurs have been true.

[Ishagu]

What's the chance of GW re writing our chapter tactic day one of the new edition?

 

Very unlikely. Lol imagine we actually had to use CP to get our only benefit, which is situational at best.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It will also be the only chapter tactic that requires CP or take damage to use which hardly seems fair if the murmurs have been true.

How did you draw that conclusion ? Back in the previous edition we were one of the two SM factions that could leave combat. What you’re saying makes no sense to me.

[emperorpants]

 

On a different note, where is all this talk about leaving combat costing cp coming from? I've seen nothing that suggests that in the stream or anywhere else. Just curious.

9 minutes 12 seconds into the video on Warhammer community twitch.

It isn't stated it would cost CP to leave combat, rather it was identified as a problem and then a loose sign off saying there's now core Strategums in place to help with that.

So we know the issue of easy fallback without penalty has been identified and they have said they have solved the issue. That would mean, logically speaking if they have solved the issue, our Chapter Trait has a benefit others do not.

Yeah, they said that a core strat to punish units that fall back is in place. I talked about it earlier in the thread and speculated that it would be mortal wounds. Others seem to think that it will be allowing the other unit to attack the unit falling back. I am certain that this is what they were referring to as fixing the falling back problem. It's just the kind of thing GW would implement and deem the problem fixed. So, its more of a nerf to our CT, given the info that we have. There is nothing that suggests there will be a blanket cp tax for falling back. If it happens I'll gladly stand corrected.

[Ishagu]

GW have said that there will be a cost of some kind for units leaving combat.

 

We can shoot after we leave, that's great. But the doesn't change the fact that we might have to pay CP or suffer damage to leave in the first place.

 

If our rules are not re written then this will be a significant nerf to our chapter, ultimately making use of the CT undesirable.

 

We know for a fact there will be a cost to leaving combat implemented in 9th. There is no indication that we will be immune to it.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

It will also be the only chapter tactic that requires CP or take damage to use which hardly seems fair if the murmurs have been true.

I'd imagine that if falling back costed cp we would be exempt from having to pay the cp. However, I very much doubt that falling back will cost cp. As noted, I believe that GW was talking about the universal strat for punishing units that fall back when they said they fixed the problem.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It makes more sense for a universal strat.

[Subtleknife]

 

 

It will also be the only chapter tactic that requires CP or take damage to use which hardly seems fair if the murmurs have been true.

How did you draw that conclusion ? Back in the previous edition we were one of the two SM factions that could leave combat. What you’re saying makes no sense to me.

I drew the conclusions from the numerous murmuring that have said their is some cost for leaving combat. A few people have said cp other have said damage. My post is entirely based on if any of these predictions come true. I even acknowledge that fact in the previous post. Edited May 28, 2020 by Subtleknife

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well like I said it just speculation at this point. ^^

 

“I will also add that giving every army more CP reduces the value of the one Ultramarine specific psychic power that was any good to begin with.”

 

Some people are speculating you’ll get 5 CP for a battalion .

Edited May 28, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Toxichobbit]

Is mostly a select few that like to B&M here. The thread should retitled accordingly since you want to focus on what could be perceived as detrimental with no real supporting evidence. For example you can edit the title to be "Why Ultramsrines will not be competitive in 9th edition". That would be much more appropriate and honest regarding intent.

The same could be said about the few people that constantly drink GWs koolaid.

 

A mix of opinions is what forums are for. Not arse kissing GW.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Oh no when there’s a real problem I speak out... many of the things I hate are going to be addressed such as CP, LoS, etc. These are all real issues and not speculative.

[Captain Idaho]

Moving on...

 

I think the value of bringing units in on the flanks might save us points on transports in Tactical Doctrine for Sternguard, Hellblasters, Devastators etc. They can come on without getting shot, within range, blast away.

 

Seems very promising.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Reserves was more of a big deal in previous editions - at one point you could start with nothing on the table which was a good tactic to avoid alpha strikes and deliver brutal beta strikes. It’s funny what changes each edition.

[emperorpants]

As far as melee, our best buff would probably be our relic banner that gives +1 attack to Ultras. Hopefully the swole guard have will be able to be victrix guard from vigulus. That would be a good buff with the banner, as the Victrix guard melee strats are actually decent.

 

Some food for thought....this new captain with the storm shield + imperiums sword warlord trait + burning blade + Victrix guard upgrade + an ancient with the relic banner.....

[Captain Idaho]

New Captain will likely be standard Primaris Captain stats, so Storm Shield and Burning Blade will be very powerful on him. Weakest element is the likely requirement for a transport, but you probably got a Repulsor anyway, right ;)

[Ishagu]

I wish we'd had a better look at that Captain. I'm still most excited about those Melta Aggressors of all the new units we've seen.

 

The Blade Veterans are great models but I don't feel we could get the best out of them.

 

The Bikes look good, I can't wait to see how big they actually are as model. I just hope all the units can be taken in sizes of 3-6.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

“Some food for thought....this new captain with the storm shield + imperiums sword warlord trait + burning blade + Victrix guard upgrade + an ancient with the relic banner...“

 

I have used something similar except I use the hammer for the highest damage output. My smash captain took out a Baneblade using the fight twice strat. You’re really going to want to kill tanks and monsters on the initial charge now too.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Black Blow Fly