New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[Ishagu]

Yeah that will be potent. I personally prefer to leave the characters to hunt infantry and other elite characters, and leave tanks to deal with the big monsters from range, but there's no denying the potency of the trusty Thunderhammer.

 

Do you guys think the new units will be limited to 3 in a squad max, or will they be 3-6?

Edited May 28, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If you can’t take at least five Primaris bikers per squad I’m not interested. I’m thinking Hellfuries will have the same numbers as Aggressors (hopefully).

Edited May 28, 2020 by Black Blow Fly

[Emurian]

Im hoping the bikers can be taken in bigger squads then 3, as 3 is not so impressive looking on the battlefield (the rule of cool). I want to have 30 of them and 3 per squad max would make filling a detachment euh, non optimal ;).

From what I remember in 4th bike squads where 2-5 + attack bike. I would like to see them uphold this configuration as it makes sense in my eyes. I also don't think 3 bikes will have a significant impact when charging into melee, (2 attacks standard, 3 shock assault, 4 maybe with their chainswords would make 13 (+1 sergeant) total. 9 hits, 6 wounds = 2-4 dead X.

Throwing up a random gist number here, I see bikes costing 25-30 pts a pop, 90 pts for a unit sounds decent. If they end up killing 1 marine per charge that requires . . .3-5 charges per game to get their pts back. Assuming your moving the first 2 turns this seems highly unlikely so they either need to hit harder per individual model, or the unit should be allowed to be bigger to overwhelm the enemy with the flurry of attacks being spewn forth from them.

But hey, all speculation from my side ;).

[Toxichobbit]

Yeah that will be potent. I personally prefer to leave the characters to hunt infantry and other elite characters, and leave tanks to deal with the big monsters from range, but there's no denying the potency of the trusty Thunderhammer.

 

Do you guys think the new units will be limited to 3 in a squad max, or will they be 3-6?

Before Shadowspear I would have said 6. Now I'm not so sure, especially after Suppressors recieved no support after initial release.

 

I would have guessed that Hellfuries (assuming that's what they are) would be like Aggressors and be 3-6, while Outriders will also be variable size squads like the current bike squads.

 

I suspect the Veterans will be limited to 3. No real logic behind that, just that they feel like a  unit that's going to be kept small for some reason.

 

It really all depends on which kits get support later down the line. Usually getting a muti-pose kit means variable squad size. The only outlier I can think of that came as a single pose unit in a box set then got no size increase with it's multi-part kit is Eliminators.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is well worth a listen:

 

https://youtu.be/HR1naQW8dGg

 

Judge for yourself .

[emperorpants]

Of course, we can't be sure yet, but from what we have seen and heard, it seems that detachment compositions won't change much. In the frontline video they even said that your army will change unless you've always run a single brigade or battalion. This implies that the detachments likely haven't changed composition.

 

This is all speculation of course, but if the detachments haven't changed, then this will potentially be horrible for Guilliman. Think about it. It seems you get one detachment for free, which will likely be the detachment your warlord is in. Which means if Guilliman is your warlord you will only get a super heavy auxiliary for free, which will include nothing but Guilliman. Which means if you want to have anything resembling an army at all, you will have to buy a battalion or brigade. So I'm guessing a 3-6 cp (maybe even more) tax to use Guilliman, along with a points increase, as the article today said there will be a points increases across the board.

 

Smaller army sizes along with a points increase on Guilliman himself may also be more of a problem for Guilliman than most, given the disadvantages he already suffers. This could all be wrong (and I hope it is) but it's looking like Guilliman is going to be....lets be generous and say not worth taking. This is based on what we have seen so far, and could change.

Edited June 3, 2020 by emperorpants

[emperorpants]

Also, with matched play essentially turning into ITC, Ultras are going to likely take a hit overall. How you ask? Well, let me explain. Our tactical flexibility won't be worth much. Every army can pick secondary objectives that cater to whatever style of army they want. Want a secondary to score points for casting? You got it! Bring a lot of melee? Want a secondary for melee? You got it! Etc. One may call that the best tactical flexibility possible. Which every army gets. For free. Meaning our main strength is now fairly irrelevant.

 

Again, this is based on the limited info we currently have, but it's shaping up to be a hugely negative change for Ultras, at least so far. Also, I find it incredibly unlikely that a day one faq will fundamentally change the Ultras rules, which honestly seems like they need at this point. I could be wrong, and I hope I am. If I'm not though....wow.

[Ishagu]

ITC means you chose objectives catered to your strong points.

It means general lists might not be as well rewarded as those thar excel in certain categories.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is so speculative with the limited information we have... just saying .

[emperorpants]

This is so speculative with the limited information we have... just saying .

Yeah I know, and trust me, I hope my speculations are wrong.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Bruvha - Put on a happy face. :)

[Captain Idaho]

Also, with matched play essentially turning into ITC, Ultras are going to likely take a hit overall. How you ask? Well, let me explain. Our tactical flexibility won't be worth much. Every army can pick secondary objectives that cater to whatever style of army they want. Want a secondary to score points for casting? You got it! Bring a lot of melee? Want a secondary for melee? You got it! Etc. One may call that the best tactical flexibility possible. Which every army gets. For free. Meaning our main strength is now fairly irrelevant.

Again, this is based on the limited info we currently have, but it's shaping up to be a hugely negative change for Ultras, at least so far. Also, I find it incredibly unlikely that a day one faq will fundamentally change the Ultras rules, which honestly seems like they need at this point. I could be wrong, and I hope I am. If I'm not though....wow.

I understand your concerns, but it isn't straight ITC. I'm not a fan of ITC either but this is GW, where a narrative element will trump competitive most of the time.

 

The Secondaries have been confirmed to be limited in choice. You can only choose 1 from each section, so you can't tailor your choices to be killing based. They said there are 4 sections if my memory serves me and we know historically GW produces missions with 3 Secondaries.

 

So a player that scores all his Secondaries because he brought a flexible list will have an advantage over one that settled to kill you but can't get across the board for the last 2 Secondaries.

 

Consider also that Killhammer, which is what we're really worried about when we talk about competitive play, won't be as easy to do. Outflanking units and obscuring terrain will assist in defeating the most obnoxious gunline, with armies that are unkillable going away thanks to the modifier cap.

 

It's a good day to be an Ultramarines player I believe.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

As I said in the other topic you'll find that secondaries don't reward flexibility.

 

Typically a player finds the secondaries easiest for their army to score, and repeat them in every mission. It's actually less variety and less adaptability, potentially.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

Today basically confirmed Guillimans cp tax....and Its worse than expected. A detachment is only free if your warlord is in it and it is a core detachment. Meaning only battalions, brigades, etc can be free. Detachments haven't changed composition, judging by the battalion preview. This means if you take Guilliman you have to pay for a battalion AND the super heavy auxiliary. Which means his tax would be 4-5 cp. If you take a brigade, his tax is likely 6 -7. Also, some missions don't generate cp, so you're spending HALF your cp for Guilliman. Guilliman is going to be extremely limiting in strats, cp, and army composition.

 

Consider that if you take Calgar instead, it's possibly a 9 POINT SWING. Guilliman is going to be straight trash, possibly one of the worst warlords in the game. ESPECIALLY when you consider his points cost ON TOP of his cp tax. Remember, everything is getting a points hike. Can anyone possibly justify Guilliman when he costs over half your cp (Which you don't get more of in some missions) and probably 380- 400 points in an edition where everything costs more, hence smaller armies, hence less things to buff? Good lord, hes going to be nothing but a trap option the way it currently looks.

 

Now, I love Guilliman. I REALLY want him to be worth using, so I hope I'm wrong. However, it's looking more and more like it's going to be a bad edition for Ultras and ESPECIALLY Guilliman.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

There might be detachment that includes low plus why’d you choose him as your WL ?

[Ishagu]

Because unless you do you don't get the 3CP. Also thematically it's weird for the Primarch not to be the Warlord.

 

Now he's 100% worse than a generic HQ.

 

EDIT:

 

Just seen the Battalion detachment. Confirmed Guilliman is comparatively useless and has no place in the army unless his rules are changed.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[Paulinus]

 

We still don’t have a full picture.

 

But look at it like this.

 

Guilliman might have a CP tax on say a Supreme Command détachement. We don’t know what that costs. But if a battalion costs 3 CP maybe a Supreme Command detachment is only 1.

 

Great. Now make Guilliman your warlord. Or not. Your choice. But it should only cost you 1 CP to take Guilliman. He gives 3 CP as it stands to your army. So if he is. Your warlord you pay 3 for the battalion and 1 for the supreme command det. Costs you four but you are refunded 3. Or take a warlord in your battalion get refunded and it still costs you 1 for the other detachment.

 

Now add adept of the Codex in there. That’s a solid warlord trait with this system.

 

He’s also monstrous and we have yet to see what that will give him.

 

A bit premature to call him trash.

[Ishagu]

He doesn't give 3 cp unless he is the Warlord.

 

You have to buy the rest of the army detachment, not him. He's already underpowered. Lose the CP bonus and he's useless.

 

And yes, we do have the full picture, and they've said existing books will work. They do - just badly.

 

If I have to use him in a Brigade he's again, utterly useless as he'll never be in a good 2k list. At the absolute best he's a nerfed into the ground or a niche unit, at worst he's unusable.

 

I gain 5-7 CP more for taking Calgar. How is that not making the Primarch into a bad unit?

As it stands right now we're a sub par chapter with no distinctive unique abilities and character removed from viable selection. Unless I see rules, Erratas or faqs to the contrary I have no reason to believe otherwise.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[Subtleknife]

That is all I'm hoping on now a quick day one update. They did mention they were doing this (not SM specific) so hopefully GMan is caught in this.

[Ishagu]

No evidence it will change. But the facts of what we actually have are clear.

 

I could be wrong, but at this point GW have failed in their promotion for the new edition as far as I'm concerned.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[Paulinus]

Again if he’s your warlord you gain three CP as per his rule. So a battalion and supreme command det costs you 1 CP total.

 

If he isn’t then that means your warlord ie the other guy in the battalion refunds you three and it still only costs you 1 CP.

 

1 CP to use Guilliman either way. Not sure how you got to half your CPs spent on getting Guilliman.

 

 

using Calgar was already better since he crossed the rubicon and they nerfed Guilliman. We still don’t know the full rules yet for monstrous or other rules for that matter. I played Guilliman a lot before his nerf but now not so much. But that has nothing to do with 9th. I don’t think he’s any worse off in 9th with the limited rules we’ve seen so far. I don’t think he’s all that good though now either.

 

With point increases yes 2000pts may not be a good level to play him in. But who says that is the standard in 9th? Maybe 3000 is the new 2000 and 2000 is the new 1500. So yeah in 8th he’s not that efficient in 1500 so the same would hold true for 2000pts in 9th perhaps.

[emperorpants]

Yeah, Guilliman is bad now. Calgar +Lt is laughably superior. If you don't take Guilliman as a warlord you lose the 3 cp bonus he hands out. Plus, it makes zero sense for the Lord commander of the Imperium to cede command to a random marine.

 

So, If Guilliman isn't your warlord he costs likely 1cp and is 380- 400 points in an edition with much smaller games, and he doesn't get one of his useful abilities. Meaning his main draw, buffing units, is less valuable due to having less things to buff. Plus you still have to put characters into your list for brigades and battalions, meaning even LESS points to use for powerful units to be buffed. It's going to be very limiting. What does Guilliman bring to the table? He is a stupidly expensive beat stick. That's it really. You can just use Calgar who will net you MUCH more cp, costs less even with the Lt and buffs exactly the same, and is much less limiting. Also, Calgar + Lt isn't that far behind Guilliman in melee anyway. Certainly not enough to justify this.

 

If Guilliman is your warlord, you get the 3 cp ability, but it's going to be used on buying detachments and you will still be 1 to 3 cp in the hole, depending on if you buy a brigade or battalion. Also, you will have to pay cp to give another character adept of the codex, as that isn't his war Lord trait anymore. Meaning you have to spend even more cp.

 

Guilliman should never be used competitively anymore. Seems all the primarchs are going to be hit hard, but at least Mortarion and Magnus are useful all on their own and don't necessarily require a lot of units around them to be useful. Also, they have psychic abilities and can fly to easier get into melee. Plus they will probably live longer due to less guns being aimed at them this edition.

 

There is literally no reason to even consider Guilliman now.

Edited June 6, 2020 by emperorpants

[Ishagu]

You lose the 3 cp bonus for having the Warlord in your Battalion, you lose the 2 CP you'd gain if you were running Calgar, you lose further cp to buy the Battalion, etc, etc

 

He's trash.

 

Show me a new datasheet if you want to prove me wrong, otherwise it's simple and not an argument to be had. I want to be wrong but I'm calling it as I see it in the context of the existing rules that GW specified will carry across into 9th.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Ishagu

[Paulinus]

Sure. Without the bigger picture we can’t assume so yeah you are right. No argument to be had.

 

Either way.

[Ishagu]

Like I said, blame GW for the poor job they've done revealing the rules.

They stated that the existing codex and supplement will be used. They said that, not me.

Now the detachment rules they show make our supplement into trash.

 

I'm sure that a new book will come. It could be next month, it could be next year. There could even be an Errata. That's guess work.

 

This topic is about how the new edition will affect Ultras.

If we're working with the existing rules in combination with the new changes then the answer is: Not in a positive way!

 

I can't assume what future rules will be. I can only judge how our existing rules will work in the framework of the new core rules and detachments.

 

If you want me to lie about what I see I can do that, but is it of any benefit?

Edited June 5, 2020 by Ishagu