New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[emperorpants]

Like I said, blame GW for the poor job they've done revealing the rules.

They stated that the existing codex and supplement will be used. They said that, not me.

Now the rules they show make our supplement into trash.

I'm sure that a new book will come. It could be next month, it could be next year. There could even be an Errata. That's guess work.

This topic is about how the new edition will affect Ultras. If we're working with the existing rules the answer is: Not in a positive way.

I can't assume what future rules will be. I can only judge how our existing rules will work in the framework of thr new core rules and detachments.

If you want me to lie about what I see I can do that, but is it of any benefit?

Agreed 100%

[emperorpants]

To add onto what Ishagu said, if it turns out that I'm wrong and the day one faq (or something else) fixes all this I'll gladly admit I was wrong and eat my words. I WANT to be wrong. However, if you had to put money down on it, what would you bet on?

[Paulinus]

Like I said, blame GW for the poor job they've done revealing the rules.

They stated that the existing codex and supplement will be used. They said that, not me.

Now the rules they show make our supplement into trash.

I'm sure that a new book will come. It could be next month, it could be next year. There could even be an Errata. That's guess work.

This topic is about how the new edition will affect Ultras. If we're working with the existing rules the answer is: Not in a positive way.

I can't assume what future rules will be. I can only judge how our existing rules will work in the framework of the new core rules and detachments.

If you want me to lie about what I see I can do that, but is it of any benefit?

Again, sure.

 

But you are in fact assuming what the future rules are. You think it sucks without seeing the whole thing.

 

What percentage of the core 9th edition rules do we have confirmed?

 

It’s coming out in dribbles. We don’t have the full context. So saying it sucks or it’s awesome is premature.

 

I’m not rage quitting over what could be 5% of the core rules revealed. I’m also not counting my chickens before they’ve hatched.

[Ishagu]

I'm not rage quitting, and I hope I'm wrong and GW have the Erratas and FAQs lined up.

[emperorpants]

I'll always play ultras, even if they end up sucking. I'd of course prefer they don't suck, but I will still play them regardless. I'll also continue to call it like I see it in regards to their rules.

[Captain Idaho]

=][= Let's not flood the topic with negativity that takes the focus away from everything else. Guilliman is one model that may or may not be amended upon release of 9th so he fits better within it.

 

Making sweeping, hyperbolic statements that Games Workshop have failed in their promotion of an entire edition just because they haven't explained how a single model fits within it, is aggravating to the view of many and doesn't lend sympathy to your position.

 

Let's take some perspective here. GW are working on an entire edition with literally hundreds of Datasheets and models to fit into the game. They might not explain how your favourite model or what have you fits into the game exactly. Don't expect them to at this point. The game revolves around more elements than just Guilliman.

 

Try to say your piece on the subject and move on, regardless of how you feel. It does no good to repeatedly bang the drum of the same argument over and over. =][=

[Captain Idaho]

I'll always play ultras, even if they end up sucking. I'd of course prefer they don't suck, but I will still play them regardless. I'll also continue to call it like I see it in regards to their rules.

There's no evidence we suck just yet mate. Just some anecdotes with assumptions of rules without the big picture.

 

I even think Guilliman still has a place.

 

Consider, if there are no other changes to the game, taking him in a Marine army will cost you zero Command Points:

 

- He's the Warlord.

- as Warlord he Grant's 3 Command Points.

- You buy a Battalion Detachment for your army, at a cost of 3 Command Points.

 

You have exactly the same amount of Command Points as your Ork/Tyranid/Aeldari etc opponent who just bought a single Battalion.

 

The only comparison is with models that grant CPs. Very few really and it is amusing that Calgar can lead an army better than Guilliman. It's incorrect and needs changing but it still doesn't break Guilliman.

 

Consider this with Guilliman; he is still a premium fighter, superior to Calgar and most other models in the game. He is also much more deliverable than his rival, Calgar, as he has a decent movement stat and can keep up with fast moving escorts easier. Remember his benefits to advance and charge rolls here.

 

The game will have more obscuring terrain thus meaning getting up close is more likely and Guilliman can accompanying close combat troops on the frontline.

 

Calgar by contrast walks slowly at the back and that means may as well hang around with a gunline. Which is a weaker army in 9th for Marines.

 

There's why I think Guilliman is much more effective even without these rules changes we want, even now.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Thanks Cap... I really appreciate your wisdom here. /thumbsup

[Captain Idaho]

We just need some perspective I think and think like Ultramarines ;)

 

On the subject of new edition changes, I'm looking forward to Terminators dropping in and not getting shot off the board as easily due to terrain, supported more readily by outflanking units and Vanguard Veterans jumping forwards to assault.

 

Attacking Ultramarines list always surprises people.

[Dracos]

I’ve played against Guilliman a couple times this year. Terrain is going to make him (and the other Primarchs probabaly) a real beast. LoS (and deep striking Aggressors)was his down fall both times. Now with out the ability to plink 4 or 5 wounds off Turn One. Nit to mention he benefit from the Reserves rules. Yeah ouch. I honestly feel when it’s all said and done it’s a good time to be an Avenging Son

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I myself can’t wait to start playing again in ninth edition and see what we can really do going forward.

[jaxom]

This was an interesting thread to read. The chapter tactic is one of the hardest to hold conversations about because it's not something that easily translates to dice rolls or single-actor decisions. Either one has actively leveraged it or one is using it to react to the opponent's actions.

 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned with the chapter tactic is falling "forward" (it may have been assumed?). Two things I've alway loved about it is the movement and the ability to maneuver and put/bring pressure on specific parts of the board.

 

One reason melee is useful is because it forces a choice on the opponent. Ultramarines largely side-step that choice. To keep the pressure on the Ultramarines, they have to be pursued - they're surprisingly mobile. An Ultramarine tank can fall back out of combat towards a unit more suited to handling the situation. A tank can block a unit's flank to prevent chargers from maximizing base-to-base against a weaker target and then fall back to open up enemy models to a counter charger or pile-in.

[Paulinus]

Something else. We still don’t know how the outflank strat will work but...

 

Imagine 6 aggressors coming in on turn 2, double shooting at -1 ap. Our super doctrine really shines there. Aggressors suffer in an ultra list when it comes to delivery. This outflank strat might be too OP.

 

Right now I use them as a back to mid field counter unit. This would put them in the offense category for sure.

 

Now imagine 18 of these...

Edited June 6, 2020 by Paulinus

[Dracos]

This is why I think Raven Guard and White Scar are getting watered down big time with everyone getting the new reserve strats, but I'm trying to breath deep and hope we get some compensation (though I doubt it). I do like how I see Chapters like Black Templars and Salamanders might be getting buffed with these new units and rules. In the end though I think it's UM really going to flourish. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Ultramarines have a 1 point CP strat to fall back for a squad and act as normal - no negative modifiers to hit when shooting and they still can charge... it can be incredibly powerful - consider a squad of five or more terminators for example using this strat that got bad touched to lock them down.

 

One thing I constantly hear my opponents say is that Ultramarines have tactics available to deal with any situation much to their chagrin. Not point and click but extremely flexible.

[Captain Idaho]

Turns out the big worry about a core Strategum making our Chapter Tactic redundant or watered down wasn't such a big worry. Relying on 6s means most folk won't spend the CP unless there's 10 or more models. Edited June 6, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Paulinus]

One thing I am really excited about is painting up a full 1st company list without having to skimp out on command points or invest in too many troops.

 

Vanguard vets, terminators, Tyrannid hunters, sternguard.

 

 

Will be a fun list that might be able to be playable and maybe win a few games.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’ve been thinking about that too. I’m hoping terminators can make a big splash again.

[Subtleknife]

If those rumoured necron points/stats for the SK is true then that will be another spot in the face of Gman as he does everything he can do but for cheaper. However new edition maybe Gman will get a few much needed tweaks.

[Ishagu]

He needs to be moved to the HQ slot, or his cost needs to be reduced to 200 points to offset the 5 CP I lose for taking him instead of Calgar.

 

It's funny that Guilliman isn't even the best commander in an Ultramarine army.

 

Let's see if GW do update the rules.

[Prot]

Honestly I'm leaving my real judgement until we see more. There's just so much more to how the game is going to play aside from the core mechanics... IE: table size, mission types, terrain. 

 

At this point I really, really wish I had not sold my Ultramarines (For the third time). I was offered a sum of money that in my situation I just could not refuse. I even rejected the first two offers, and a few others from my instagram account. But I really felt I could not paint a 4th Ultramarines army without losing my sanity. 

 

So I went White Scars instead to try something different. And I now have over 2000-2500 points of White Scars. I much prefer the Ultra flexibility. And I still feel that way going into 9th. Everything from characters, unit flexibility, and Doctrines feel better for Ultra's for me. The only thing I truly give a complete superior ranking to with White Scars is their Psychic tree is phenomenal, but I'd still rather pass on it to have Tigurius because he's just fantastic without blowing CP on him. Otherwise the White Scars inherent Litany is also amazing (for them). 

 

But it all still points the White Scars to waiting/holding out to turn 3. 

 

Why I mention this is Ultra's still have that flexibility card up their sleeve -no matter- the edition! Rules can change, certain types of gaming warfare may come to the surface, but there's very little the Ultra's can't do well, and while they will never be the very best in any one phase of the game, that's where the player comes in. And that's where this army gains its player base from. (speaking purely from a game play perspective).

 

I think in every edition you can go chasing the meta. For the back half of 8th it rose to the Iron Hands in hyper competitive play. I honestly can't think of a more boring army to play.... (no offense to IH fans! Just a playstyle thing). 

 

For many years a lot of us here that played UM in older editions remember being one of the worst. Maybe some of us got spoiled in 7th/8th? 

 

I think GW intentionally put is in a very malleable position going forward. Anything completely missed will be fine tuned in future campaigns. 

 

I see people hopping on and reacting to the buffs AdMech got (I have a massive Admech army). This is a classic GW play.... the end of the road for one edition means a massive boost for some of the bottom feeders of a dying edition: Necrons/AdMech/Deathguard/Custodes. Who cares if they get the limelight for 90 days? (I've lived through that with chaos space marines at the end of 7th... that was horrible.)

 

Stay the course Ultra's. Make sound judgements based on all the information. Try to see that every army will see bad and good here, and overall, like all edition changes, there will be a shift. These shifts sell models, and they also typically show off the most flexible factions. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Prot there is a lot of wisdom there. Do feel tempted to build a new Ultramarines army?

[Captain Idaho]

He needs to be moved to the HQ slot, or his cost needs to be reduced to 200 points to offset the 5 CP I lose for taking him instead of Calgar.

 

It's funny that Guilliman isn't even the best commander in an Ultramarine army.

 

Let's see if GW do update the rules.

I agree Guilliman isn't as good a commander as Calgar from a CP perspective if we transpose 8th rules straight into 9th, but you are mistaken on the maths of how many CPs you "lose".

 

Calgar would be part of your Battalion so you get 12 for a Strikeforce +2 for Calgar. = 14

 

Guilliman would be your Warlord so you'd get +3, pay 3 for a Battalion and get 12 for a Strikeforce =12

 

The difference is not 5. It's 2.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[emperorpants]

 

He needs to be moved to the HQ slot, or his cost needs to be reduced to 200 points to offset the 5 CP I lose for taking him instead of Calgar.

It's funny that Guilliman isn't even the best commander in an Ultramarine army.

Let's see if GW do update the rules.

I agree Guilliman isn't as good a commander as Calgar from a CP perspective if we transpose 8th rules straight into 9th, but you are mistaken on the maths of how many CPs you "lose".

Calgar would be part of your Battalion so you get 12 for a Strikeforce +2 for Calgar. = 14

Guilliman would be your Warlord so you'd get +3, pay 3 for a Battalion and get 12 for a Strikeforce =12

The difference is not 5. It's 2.

Wrong. You have to pay for the super heavy auxiliary or supreme command detachment that you put Guilliman in. The way it works is this: you only get points refunded if your warlord is in a patrol, battalion, or brigade. Meaning Guilliman will have at the bear minimum a cp tax of 1, and then have to pay more for a detachment that is usable for an army, like a brigade or battalion. Maybe the cp tax will be more, we have to wait to see the costs of other detachments to be sure of the size of the tax. Edited June 8, 2020 by emperorpants

[Captain Idaho]

You're right it does say "Patrol, Battalion or Brigade" but also doesn't mention how much you pay for the Supreme Command Detachment.

 

Likely, it might cost 1 CP, but again that's making assumptions.

 

We literally don't know.

 

What we do know, is right now there is a difference of 2 CP between taking Calgar over Guilliman. I'm pointing out that Ishagu is making assumptions and I'm stipulating purely what we know.

 

Or to put it another way... I'm trying to remain positive rather than assume the worst.

 

If we are going to make assumptions, why not presume GW will amend Guilliman the game is released?

 

***

 

He does need to be moved to HQ though.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Captain Idaho