New edition and new units. How will they affect Ultras?

[Ishagu]

Well, at 2k you get 12cp

 

The first Battalion is free and if your warlord is in it you get 3 bonus CP (Command Benefit, check the Battalion in the preview).

 

Then Calgar awards 2 on top.

 

That's 17 CP and a difference of 5.

 

 

So, as I was saying. Unless Guilliman is moved to the HQ slot he's comparatively a very, very poor choice unless they re-write his rules.

I certainly wouldn't ever run him unless changes are made, and I'm someone who puts theme and lore at the top of my list building. There's a line I draw at gimping my own army, however.

Ultimately this takes away the viability of one of our unique units and makes the other chapters better by comparison.

 

If the rules are changed I'll be the first to sing praises. I have a suspicion that he'll be relegated to a unit you only take in Brigade detachments in 3k games. That would be a slap in the face for anyone wanting to use the model in pick up games or any sort of competitive play at 2k or below. With units costing more it will be impossible to make a good, coherent Brigade list of Astartes at 2k and include such an expensive character.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

You're right it does say "Patrol, Battalion or Brigade" but also doesn't mention how much you pay for the Supreme Command Detachment.

Likely, it might cost 1 CP, but again that's making assumptions.

We literally don't know.

What we do know, is right now there is a difference of 2 CP between taking Calgar over Guilliman. I'm pointing out that Ishagu is making assumptions and I'm stipulating purely what we know.

Or to put it another way... I'm trying to remain positive rather than assume the worst.

If we are going to make assumptions, why not presume GW will amend Guilliman the game is released?

***

He does need to be moved to HQ though.

I get It. Did I say something negative? I just pointed out the facts and most likely scenarios. Nothing more. In fact, I said myself that we didn't know the cp cost and had to wait and see, however we have more than enough evidence to conclude that the most reasonable assumption is a super heavy auxiliary will cost 1 cp. Same for a supreme command detachment. Or do You honestly think it is free and you can break the system by spamming free detachments of characters? It's entirely reasonable to assume it costs 1 cp. You even said that yourself in your post.

 

Where in my post did you see a negative value judgement that required the lecture on positivity again? I'm fully aware of why you posted what you did. Again, why that lecture? I simply saw something that is in all likelihood incorrect and replied. I mean, did you know about only patrols, battalions, and brigades being refunded? Cuz it seemed like you didn't, and I wanted to inform you.

 

Again, were was the negativity?

Edited June 8, 2020 by emperorpants

[emperorpants]

Well, at 2k you get 12cp

The first Battalion is free and if your warlord is in it you get 3 bonus CP (Command Benefit, check the Battalion in the preview).

Then Calgar awards 2 on top.

That's 17 CP and a difference of 5.

So, as I was saying. Unless Guilliman is moved to the HQ slot he's comparatively a very, very poor choice unless they re-write his rules.

I certainly wouldn't ever run him unless changes are made, and I'm someone who puts theme and lore at the top of my list building. There's a line I draw at gimping my own army, however.

Ultimately this takes away the viability of one of our unique units and makes the other chapters better by comparison.

If the rules are changed I'll be the first to sing praises. I have a suspicion that he'll be relegated to a unit you only take in Brigade detachments in 3k games. That would be a slap in the face for anyone wanting to use the model in pick up games or any sort of competitive play at 2k or below. With units costing more it will be impossible to make a good, coherent Brigade list of Astartes at 2k and include such an expensive character.

 

The way I understood it is that the cp bonus was what made the detachment free, it isn't free on its own. So you get the cp bonus of 3, Which is meant to pay for the brigade detachment making it essentially free, and then you get the bonus two for Calgar bringing you to 14 cp. With Guilliman you will likely be starting with 11 cp. Still a large difference, especially in missions were you don't gain cp in the command phase and you factor in adept of the codex for Calgar.

[Ishagu]

I read it differently. That if you chose the detachment as your first detachment (one of the 3 core detachments) the points are refunded. You then get a command bonus on top.

 

I could be wrong of course.

[emperorpants]

I read it differently. That if you chose the detachment as your first detachment (one of the 3 core detachments) the points are refunded. You then get a command bonus on top.

I could be wrong of course.

Good point, this could be true as well.

[Prot]

Prot there is a lot of wisdom there. Do feel tempted to build a new Ultramarines army?

 

Haha. You know it!

 

I seriously miss them but so exhausted and tired of painting that blue (even with new recipes). One big army was sold way before 7th edition. Then I had an online Battle rep company based here in Canada (Miniwargaming.com) buy my newly painted army with lots of the new Primaris and Guillman.

Then I took that as a challenge to do the whole thing all over again and do a better job on Guilliman which I think I did, and that was the last one to sell.

 

More on point.... I'd say the best part about 9th could be a break from 'castles'. If Ultra's gain new melta Aggressors, and more reason to be aggressive with Guilliman, I think that could be really fun. I know for a while in 8th 3 Crusader Repulsors and Guilliman was really doing some work,and even though I played it a few times, I found it really boring. 

 

The more reason to bring Ultra's forward, the better (imo). And White Scars are fun, but man they just live for that turn 3 super doctrine, and just basicallly... stall until then. Ultra's definitely play better with a flexible mindset in my findings. 

 

(And yes, if I could afford starting Ultras all over, I would, but it's really hard to imagine that now. :) )

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I know what you’re saying and that’s why I tend to steer away from meleecentric armies. I have always enjoyed the tactical flexibility of the Ultramarines and intend to go forward with them in ninth edition.

[Captain Idaho]

The negativity comment is mentioned more generically, as in let's not dwell on assumed negatives to our army.

 

I read it differently. That if you chose the detachment as your first detachment (one of the 3 core detachments) the points are refunded. You then get a command bonus on top.

 

I could be wrong of course.

The Warhammer Community article says the following:

 

"Instead of earning you Command points, each Detachment you take will instead COST you Command points. However, it’s worth noting that the Command points spent on a ‘core’ Detachment (Patrol, Battalion or Brigade) are refunded if it also includes your Warlord, so your first Detachment is usually free."

 

So my previous post explains it accurately, with the information we have to date.

 

***

 

Yeah I think Prot may be right about the end of Castles in 40K. A more dynamic game is good for everyone.

[Ishagu]

It can be, depending on your army. Auras are built into our army but they don't feature in some at all. That's not necessarily good for Marines in general.

 

Yeah you could be right about the way the detachments refund the CP. It's still a flat nerf for Guilliman, however. Also worth noting that armies are getting smaller. Can we afford 3 characters that cost well over 500 points in a smaller army? Hopefully there will be a significant point reduction of 100 points or more.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

The negativity comment is mentioned more generically, as in let's not dwell on assumed negatives to our army.

I read it differently. That if you chose the detachment as your first detachment (one of the 3 core detachments) the points are refunded. You then get a command bonus on top.

I could be wrong of course.

The Warhammer Community article says the following:

"Instead of earning you Command points, each Detachment you take will instead COST you Command points. However, it’s worth noting that the Command points spent on a ‘core’ Detachment (Patrol, Battalion or Brigade) are refunded if it also includes your Warlord, so your first Detachment is usually free."

So my previous post explains it accurately, with the information we have to date.

***

Yeah I think Prot may be right about the end of Castles in 40K. A more dynamic game is good for everyone.

Dont dwell on negatives, but we should dwell on unfounded positives, like a supreme command detachment costing zero cp? Isn't that just setting unrealistic expectations? Edited June 8, 2020 by emperorpants

[Captain Idaho]

I think the expectation is reasonable that Guilliman will see changes at launch with the new edition, or how he interacts with an army.

 

***

 

Yeah he needs to be a HQ ideally, though I suspect he'll go up to 400pts if that is the case.

[emperorpants]

I think the expectation is reasonable that Guilliman will see changes at launch with the new edition, or how he interacts with an army.

***

Yeah he needs to be a HQ ideally, though I suspect he'll go up to 400pts if that is the case.

Fair enough, I disagree, but fair enough. Actually if the leaks on the Silent King are accurate, it actually makes me a bit more hopeful for Guilliman. At least little bit. With everything they gave the Silent King, GW couldn't be stupid enough to leave Guilliman as is and stay more expensive than the Silent King could they?

[Ishagu]

Silent King is unbelievable for the points. Guilliman should be a lot cheaper if he hopes to compete.

 

Maybe characters will be cheaper? I don't see why he would be 400 points even if he moved to be a HQ? A Chaplain Dread is as good in CC and I can have two further characters to replicate his aura and provide even more power and board control for less points.

 

300 is probably the sweet spot if he moves to the HQ slot.

If the Silent King, Ghaz, Abaddon, Celestine and Cawl are all HQs then Guilliman should be one too.

 

Yes, we talk about Guilliman alot, but beyond our Characters there isn't as much going for the chapter as there is for Iron Hands or Raven Guard.

Edited June 8, 2020 by Ishagu

[Captain Idaho]

I dunno, I'm happy with a Tactical Doctrine enjoying force. All those Bolters doubling in firepower at range when moving and with additional AP has really boosted the army.

 

Plus take a Chapter Champion. He can kill just about anything; enemy characters, infantry, vehicles, titans, orbiting space ships...

 

(Runs off to check rumours on Silent King!)

Edited June 8, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The rumors I saw for SK on Reddit seem just too good to be true...

 

[Ishagu]

Similar rumors are dropping from multiple sources so they could be true. Will have to wait and see.

 

If 340 points gets you that then Guilliman should be dropped to 120, Calgar to 75, etc.

Remains to be seen what kind of adjustments are in store for the army.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Ishagu

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Rumor not supported by points going up. SK rumored stats are better than anything else out there. Doesn’t really matter about how many sources since they could all be copying each other too.

[emperorpants]

So, all vehicles now have power of the machine spirit, for every army, according to the stream. What does this mean for our doctrine now that half of its benefits have been handed out to the rest of the armies in the game, just like our chapter tactic?

 

Not trying to be negative, but these changes, while good for the game, seem to make our tactic and doctrine a bit redundant. What benefit does our tactic and doctrine bring to anything with the vehicle keyword anymore? Honest question.

 

It honestly seems like GW looked at what Ultras could do and said "You know What? All of that seems pretty cool. It should all really be standard for every army in game. It would make for a better game overall if everyone could have this kind of freedom of movement and flexibility." So then they went and did that, and you know what? They were right! All of this seems like it will make a better and more fun gaming experience all around.

 

The problem for Ultras though, is where does it leave us when so much of our abilities become standard across the game? They said our supplement would still be valid, so they can't be changing our rules too drastically. Again, not trying to be negative, but where does this leave us in your opinion?

[Ishagu]

It's funny because I don't run any infantry units with heavy weapons lol.

 

Our rule really only impacted my Dreads and Tanks for two turns, now it has no significant impact outside of the Aggressor trick. Time for a new Chapter Tactic I think.

 

Like I said earlier, the new core rules are great for the game but bad for the Ultras. Maybe GW will surprise us with a big Errara that re-writes our supplement?

[emperorpants]

It's funny because I don't run any infantry units with heavy weapons lol.

Our rule really only impacted my Dreads and Tanks for two turns, now it has no significant impact outside of the Aggressor trick. Time for a new Chapter Tactic I think.

Like I said earlier, the new core rules are great for the game but bad for the Ultras. Maybe GW will surprise us with a big Errara that re-writes our supplement?

Fingers crossed right? I know mine will be!

[Ishagu]

What's the chance of an Errara that re-writes the Doctrine bonus and a bunch of unit datasheets?

 

Not high lol

 

There is only one thing our Doctrine does now that has any value. Allows Aggressord to fire twice after moving.

 

Salamanders can do that too, with the additional bonus of having +1 to wound in shooting and close combat which is superior to anything we can do. And they get their better chapter tactic on top.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Ishagu

[jaxom]

 

So, all vehicles now have power of the machine spirit, for every army, according to the stream. What does this mean for our doctrine now that half of its benefits have been handed out to the rest of the armies in the game, just like our chapter tactic?

 

*SNIP*

 

The problem for Ultras though, is where does it leave us when so much of our abilities become standard across the game? They said our supplement would still be valid, so they can't be changing our rules too drastically. Again, not trying to be negative, but where does this leave us in your opinion?

 

Don't lose the trees for the forest. An Iron Hands Repulsor-Executioner can now move and fire without penalty after the first turn along with every other tank? Good for them, but they don't count as stationary. The Repulsor-Execution can fire while engaged in melee? Good for it, but as far as I know vehicles can't fall back out of combat and still shoot so too bad if you need that tank elsewhere or the enemy available to shoot at with other units.

 

Our rule really only impacted my Dreads and Tanks for two turns, now it has no significant impact outside of the Aggressor trick. Time for a new Chapter Tactic I think.

 

Like I said earlier, the new core rules are great for the game but bad for the Ultras. Maybe GW will surprise us with a big Errara that re-writes our supplement?

 

I think the impact all the updated rules are going to have will depend a lot on people's preferred units and play style with the Ultramarines. Some types of units are getting buffs across the board, "reducing the power" of the UM rules for that unit. Other units are unaffected. An infantry list reliant on moving up the board to grab objectives and eventually leverage Shock Assault and Assault Doctrine are still benefiting from Rapid Fire double taps. 

 

Improving poor performing unit types across the board isn't going to change how the Ultramarines operate within the realm of their own codex. Does it make some other factions more powerful than they used to be? Yes (I look forward to being able to use Sentinels as mobile weapon platforms again). Does this cripple the Ultramarines? No, because it's not about the Ultramarines. Does this make the Ultramarines not as good for tournament play? Probably - Eldar, Guard, other SM factions now have some tools that are very similar to what the UM currently have. However, this doesn't strip the UMs of their tools and ability to handle those other armies.

[Paulinus]

Well I do play stalker bolter intercessors.

 

Occasionally I throw in a missile launcher or heavy bolter into a 5 man tactical squad.

 

Sniper scouts. (I have been playing them less and less though lately)

 

Eliminators.

 

Grav dev squad

 

A few things more than just aggressors. But yes, I anticipate that the PDF might address it if not we wait for a new Codex to drop which might be one of the first ones.

 

But it isn’t just us. Plenty of other armies have units or builds that don’t suffer any minuses for moving and shooting.

 

Still it does water down the superdoctrine if it stays as is.

[Kallas]

Why would you want a rewritten Chapter Tactic?

 

Ultramarines vehicles can now Fall Back and shoot with Heavy Weapons; other armies can't (typically) do that. Morale is also supposedly going to be more impactful, but we have no clue as to what changes are being made there.

 

Doctrine isn't as powerful now that non-Infantry don't suffer the Heavy penalty? Um, ok. It's still useful for the plethora of bolt weapons that Ultramarines use and, as mentioned, Aggressors.

 

Considering that there has been some serious doom-and-gloom about, "But vehicles will be able to shoot in combat" - this is now showing that it's actually not unrestricted at all, and has a quite significant restriction. That means that the Chapter Tactic definitely has more value, at the very least, and indicates that maybe there's more to the new rules than what you know.

Edited June 9, 2020 by Kallas

[emperorpants]

 

So, all vehicles now have power of the machine spirit, for every army, according to the stream. What does this mean for our doctrine now that half of its benefits have been handed out to the rest of the armies in the game, just like our chapter tactic?

 

*SNIP*

 

The problem for Ultras though, is where does it leave us when so much of our abilities become standard across the game? They said our supplement would still be valid, so they can't be changing our rules too drastically. Again, not trying to be negative, but where does this leave us in your opinion?

 

 

Don't lose the trees for the forest. An Iron Hands Repulsor-Executioner can now move and fire without penalty after the first turn along with every other tank? Good for them, but they don't count as stationary. The Repulsor-Execution can fire while engaged in melee? Good for it, but as far as I know vehicles can't fall back out of combat and still shoot so too bad if you need that tank elsewhere or the enemy available to shoot at with other units.

 

Our rule really only impacted my Dreads and Tanks for two turns, now it has no significant impact outside of the Aggressor trick. Time for a new Chapter Tactic I think.

Like I said earlier, the new core rules are great for the game but bad for the Ultras. Maybe GW will surprise us with a big Errara that re-writes our supplement?

 

I think the impact all the updated rules are going to have will depend a lot on people's preferred units and play style with the Ultramarines. Some types of units are getting buffs across the board, "reducing the power" of the UM rules for that unit. Other units are unaffected. An infantry list reliant on moving up the board to grab objectives and eventually leverage Shock Assault and Assault Doctrine are still benefiting from Rapid Fire double taps.

 

Improving poor performing unit types across the board isn't going to change how the Ultramarines operate within the realm of their own codex. Does it make some other factions more powerful than they used to be? Yes (I look forward to being able to use Sentinels as mobile weapon platforms again). Does this cripple the Ultramarines? No, because it's not about the Ultramarines. Does this make the Ultramarines not as good for tournament play? Probably - Eldar, Guard, other SM factions now have some tools that are very similar to what the UM currently have. However, this doesn't strip the UMs of their tools and ability to handle those other armies.

The repulsor executioner is pretty much one of the only vehicles that retains any value at all from our doctrine, and that value is quite marginal compared to what other chapters get. Also, GW straight up said that this edition favors bigger units like vehicles and monsters. Play testers have said the same thing. If nothing changes we will likely have the worst vehicles out of all chapters due to our chapter tactic and doctrine having close to zero benefit to our vehicles. From everything that's been said infantry heavy lists don't seem to be the way of the future.

 

Also, they are improving poor performing units across the the whole game. This is great! They are doing it by taking abilities that were our main advantages and making them standard across all armies. This makes us weaker compared to other armies, because they keep their abilities while gaining ours, and we gain nothing in comparison. Of course, this all changes if GW invalidates our supplement and rewrites our doctrine and chapter tactic. Which could happen, possibly.

Edited June 9, 2020 by emperorpants