Assault Intercessors for the Dark Angels

[Skywrath]

Spoilers ahead if you haven't seen the reveal yet.

 

Do you think the DWK now have a contender for being close-combat heavy beat-sticks? Here is why I think they could be a contender (bear in mind this is comparing/contrasting with what we have already):

 

1. They have a ranged weapon (some people say volkite) - DWK don't have a ranged weapon. 

 

2. Cheaper - the DWK are more expensive than the current Intercessor by about 50 points (let's assume the new Intercessor is + or - 20 points). Granted they did mention about a point balance revamp coming with 9th edition (by revamp, I mean change) so DWK might be cheaper, but I don't see it. 

 

3. Weak link but one worth mentioning - they mentioned chain swords are back, and with the rules revamp, does that mean chainswords will be getting a buff? Those intercessors are armed with those, which could make them work out better. 

 

4. Lore implications: If you recall the DA lore, there was a primaris marine that ascended to the Deathwing. Let's assume that marine is one of those new Assault Intercessors, and more marines follow. Does that mean he inherits the DEATHWING keyword, making him a valid choice for Combined Assault?

 

Regardless of outcome, I'll pick a few of those up just for the sake of the good-looking models. Happy speculating!

Edited May 23, 2020 by Skywrath

[Gederas]

Image for those wondering if you haven't seen the preview:

Assault Intercessor Squad:

 

 

New Unit (or Character if the trailer is any indication?)

 

Colour image of the above:

 

 

Skywrath, you're not talking about the more pertinent one to Dark Angels. That would be the PRIMARIS OUTRIDER BIKE SQUAD:

[Skywrath]

 Skywrath, you're not talking about the more pertinent one to Dark Angels. That would be the PRIMARIS OUTRIDER BIKE SQUAD:

 

I was wondering when someone would pick up on that! As a Deathwing player, I thought I'd leave the implications for the more experienced hands of the Ravenwing players ;p 

Edited May 23, 2020 by Skywrath

[ValourousHeart]

Well those are the bikes in the background of that grainy picture.  Where is my new land speeder?

[Guest Triszin]

Well those are the bikes in the background of that grainy picture.  Where is my new land speeder?

probably 3 months after this starter comes out

[Berzul]

well, looks like we will be having primaris units for the DW and RW after all.

[INKS]

I Love the new bikes. It should be a nice addition as I don't have any black knights yet. I am going to be waiting on buying any of the new models for my RW army until we have a new codex though. I don't want to buy a bunch of stuff and have models or rules change on me

[Master Sheol]

well, looks like we will be having primaris units for the DW and RW after all.

DW still don't have units... even if in the WD they said that the first primaris inducted in the DW are wearing gravis armour that armour doesn't fit the fighting mode of the DW as they cannot teleport on the battlefield and must ride into repulsors so they are totally useless for the teleported surgical strike kind of warfare the DW uses (you know, RW with teleport homers hunt the prey and call the DW to teleport on their homers to give the killing blow)

 

Assault intercessors will be useful for DA ofc but they will be more suited for BT (crusaders squads), BA (i can see melee DC based on them) and SW (as primaris Blood Claws) and all the other HtH oriented Chapters

 

The shield and sword veterans could be used in DA as company veterans ofc and the similar lieutenant and chaplain will join them on an impulsor to go hunt enemies of the imperium

 

The metla "aggressors" are really interesting and i can't wait to know what kind of melta weapons they can use

 

The ancient with relic is an amazing model and he wears a robe so it's already a DA in style

 

The chaplain is always good (even if the blister one is more suited for DA cause he wears a robe) and the "executioner" guy is menacing enough and i want to put one in my DA army

 

Finally the bikes finally justifies the articole on WD that said that the RW is starting to induct primaris marines too. Now they have the way to keep the pace of the rest of the company

[Galloway]

Well, my timing is either very good or very bad since I just finished painting up a set of 6 DV bikers and started in on some non-primaris veterans w/ storm shields. Overall I like the most of these, like that bike style better but will have to see how to get the "wing" motif going in front to establish them as Dark Angels/Unforgiven rather than generic bikes (assuming you want them as Ravenwing). Was trying to think about what to do for the veterans, but of couse the obvious thing is swap the shields for DWK shields. Cool that there's a volike option too, and the fact they have crusade-style helms is awesome. Assault intercessors are nice enough (even just to have other bodys for conversions), but without jump packs or anything else don't seem them particularly stealing a role from existing units.

 

Think the only thing I don't particularly care for in this release is more in the characters, not sold on the guy with the executioner sword and hourglass, or the new ancient/banner guy with a reliquary-type thing rather than and banner. Sort of feels like some AoS stormcast design leaking in, don't think it mixes well- I liked the idea of the primaris drawing much more from Great Crusade type iconography rather than trying to add more skulls onto things.

Edited May 23, 2020 by Galloway

[ValourousHeart]

I wonder how the new edition will affect Reivers. I'm also curious how they are going to distinguish between Assault Intercessors and Reivers.

[UtariOnzo]

The new executioner and relic carrying ancient will fit my successors perfectly, as will the sword and board guys. Shame they’re not coming sooner for the Liber competition!

[Berzul]

 

well, looks like we will be having primaris units for the DW and RW after all.

DW still don't have units... even if in the WD they said that the first primaris inducted in the DW are wearing gravis armour that armour doesn't fit the fighting mode of the DW as they cannot teleport on the battlefield and must ride into repulsors so they are totally useless for the teleported surgical strike kind of warfare the DW uses (you know, RW with teleport homers hunt the prey and call the DW to teleport on their homers to give the killing blow)

 

Assault intercessors will be useful for DA ofc but they will be more suited for BT (crusaders squads), BA (i can see melee DC based on them) and SW (as primaris Blood Claws) and all the other HtH oriented Chapters

 

The shield and sword veterans could be used in DA as company veterans ofc and the similar lieutenant and chaplain will join them on an impulsor to go hunt enemies of the imperium

 

The metla "aggressors" are really interesting and i can't wait to know what kind of melta weapons they can use

 

The ancient with relic is an amazing model and he wears a robe so it's already a DA in style

 

The chaplain is always good (even if the blister one is more suited for DA cause he wears a robe) and the "executioner" guy is menacing enough and i want to put one in my DA army

 

Finally the bikes finally justifies the articole on WD that said that the RW is starting to induct primaris marines too. Now they have the way to keep the pace of the rest of the company

 

 

I'm willing to bet the sword and board guys will be Deathwing.

 

I do NOT expect the DW to remain Terminator-Only for long. I'm absolutely expecting GW to shake things up, in that sense.

[Skywrath]

 

 

well, looks like we will be having primaris units for the DW and RW after all.

DW still don't have units... even if in the WD they said that the first primaris inducted in the DW are wearing gravis armour that armour doesn't fit the fighting mode of the DW as they cannot teleport on the battlefield and must ride into repulsors so they are totally useless for the teleported surgical strike kind of warfare the DW uses (you know, RW with teleport homers hunt the prey and call the DW to teleport on their homers to give the killing blow)

 

Assault intercessors will be useful for DA ofc but they will be more suited for BT (crusaders squads), BA (i can see melee DC based on them) and SW (as primaris Blood Claws) and all the other HtH oriented Chapters

 

The shield and sword veterans could be used in DA as company veterans ofc and the similar lieutenant and chaplain will join them on an impulsor to go hunt enemies of the imperium

 

The metla "aggressors" are really interesting and i can't wait to know what kind of melta weapons they can use

 

The ancient with relic is an amazing model and he wears a robe so it's already a DA in style

 

The chaplain is always good (even if the blister one is more suited for DA cause he wears a robe) and the "executioner" guy is menacing enough and i want to put one in my DA army

 

Finally the bikes finally justifies the articole on WD that said that the RW is starting to induct primaris marines too. Now they have the way to keep the pace of the rest of the company

 

 

I'm willing to bet the sword and board guys will be Deathwing.

 

I do NOT expect the DW to remain Terminator-Only for long. I'm absolutely expecting GW to shake things up, in that sense.

 

 

My thoughts exactly! But if we to go back to my original question, do you think they might replace the DWK on the battlefield?

[Berzul]

What I think is that, the Primaris Terminators might, in fact, never be coming.

 

We have Tacticus for "Power Armor" size marines, Phobos for "Scout Armor" size Gravis Variant for "Terminator Armor" size marines, and full Gravis for "Centurion Armor" size marines. So, if we follow the idea that Primaris will not, in fact, replace firstborn marines, then, with pretty much all sizes already present, we only have three ways to go about things:
 

A) GW does NOT make these new non-terminator primaris models for the Deathwing, and the company remains full firstborn marines. Which, we already know is NOT the case in lore.

 

B) GW makes the lore move forward, with Azrael reforming the 1st Company of the Army, so that now the Deathwing no longer fight only in Terminator Armor.

 

C) GW releases alternative variants to the Gravis and Gravis Variant armors (similar to how we have different patterns of terminator armor for the DW already), and brings those in to the DW.

 

I think the most likely we will get option B for the time being, and C down the line. Maybe in a couple of years since 9th.

 

These sword and shield warriors look very fitting for a new-structured DW, along with some aggressors. These guys would clearly be veterans, after all. Either battle company veterans, or 1st company veterans.

 

The new direction of the game might just mean a serious shaking up of the lore for the army. I find it hard to find a logic by which GW can just keep the army as its old status quo, while moving the entire range forward.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

From a rules perspective, I don’t see the storm shield guys replacing DWK. Apart from being clearly geared towards combat, they likely (important caveat, as we don’t know the rules yet) will fill different roles.

 

DWK have four key strengths:

1. Massive damage output

2. Built in delivery system

3. Synergy with Ravenwing (to enhance delivery system)

4. Pretty survivable

 

Who knows what exactly these guys will do, but to directly compare them

1. Power swords will not equal mace of redemption damage. Shooting is nice, but not really in the same ballpark - if you’re taking DWK, it’s to delete units in a single turn of combat, which I can’t see these guys doing

2. Most likely won’t have an inherent delivery system like deep strike. Which means taking an expensive transport to get them up the board

3. Very unlikely. Without massive changes, combined assault won’t work (although the need for it is lessened by taking the transport these guys will need)

4. Clearly they’ve got stormshields, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they have artificer armour if they fill a veteran/honour guard role, so most likely will be comparable to deathwing knights in having 2W, 2+/3++. But, DWK can also benefit from their relic banner and fortress of shields. Maybe the new guys will get something similar, but maybe not.

 

Conclusion: these units are different. I can see some people taking them instead of DWK, but they’re not a 1:1 replacement - both units require list building around them to make them shine, but they will require different units in support to achieve those synergies

[Berzul]

Well, it seems to be established that no firstborn unit will or should get a 1:1 replacement, in any case.

I think the DW will see a full restructure, including maybe new transports as delivery systems, and other such things to make up the differences.

[shabbadoo]

This could very well be true for Ravenwing and Deathwing. We'll know in ten years when the models are finally all available.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

Well, it seems to be established that no firstborn unit will or should get a 1:1 replacement, in any case.

 

Agreed, that was probably a poor choice of phrase. What I meant was that some primaris have a clear counterpart to firstborn - intercessors/tactical marines; hellblasters/plasma cannon devastators; eliminators/sniper scouts. They’re not direct equivalents, but they fill a similar role/purpose in the army (with primaris generally doing it better). My argument in this instance is that the new storm shield guys don’t align or compete with DWK in terms of their place in the army

[Berzul]

Oh

 

 

Well, it seems to be established that no firstborn unit will or should get a 1:1 replacement, in any case.

Agreed, that was probably a poor choice of phrase. What I meant was that some primaris have a clear counterpart to firstborn - intercessors/tactical marines; hellblasters/plasma cannon devastators; eliminators/sniper scouts. They’re not direct equivalents, but they fill a similar role/purpose in the army (with primaris generally doing it better). My argument in this instance is that the new storm shield guys don’t align or compete with DWK in terms of their place in the army

 

Well, yeah, its true. I think you are right.

 

What I mean, for my part, is that DW will most likely stop being a Terminator Only Company.

[Skywrath]

From a rules perspective, I don’t see the storm shield guys replacing DWK. Apart from being clearly geared towards combat, they likely (important caveat, as we don’t know the rules yet) will fill different roles.

 

DWK have four key strengths:

1. Massive damage output

2. Built in delivery system 

 

Assuming they can be given the Inner Circle  stratagem, so will they. And before you bring up the point that you pay 1CP - note the CP system restructure happening.

 

3. Synergy with Ravenwing (to enhance delivery system)

 

See above. Combined assault relies on the Deathwing Keyword, which means anything that has that keyword, can drop in with Ravenwing. Which leads to me to believe there could be more units besides the DWK that can benefit from it while giving similar damage output.

 

4. Pretty survivable

 

They have the same amount of wounds - assuming it follows the intercessor stat-line. Probably a 3+ armor save, and a 3+ invuln with shields. They are pretty comparable.

 

Who knows what exactly these guys will do, but to directly compare them

 

1. Power swords will not equal mace of redemption damage. Shooting is nice, but not really in the same ballpark - if you’re taking DWK, it’s to delete units in a single turn of combat, which I can’t see these guys doing

 

They are comparable to Company Veterans - which means they will get access to extra weaponry such as Chainswords, or the primaris version of a thunder hammer (whatever that may be). They are comparable, by that logic. Which reminds me, they said chainswords are back, which if I were to read at it deeply, implies they are buffing them?

 

2. Most likely won’t have an inherent delivery system like deep strike. Which means taking an expensive transport to get them up the board

 

See previous point.

 

3. Very unlikely. Without massive changes, combined assault won’t work (although the need for it is lessened by taking the transport these guys will need)

 

See previous point as well.

 

4. Clearly they’ve got stormshields, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they have artificer armour if they fill a veteran/honour guard role, so most likely will be comparable to deathwing knights in having 2W, 2+/3++. But, DWK can also benefit from their relic banner and fortress of shields. Maybe the new guys will get something similar, but maybe not.

 

Primaris Ancient and a maybe a primaris drop-pod springs to mind. I am still under the impression everything the firstborn has will be replaced, and true to your 1;1 analogy, made better. And there is always a possibility that the pennant of remembrance can be transferred over to the primaris ones, in a few years time, if it hasn't been superseeded by anything.

 

Conclusion: these units are different. I can see some people taking them instead of DWK, but they’re not a 1:1 replacement - both units require list building around them to make them shine, but they will require different units in support to achieve those synergies

 

Forgive me, but I disagree. If the Assault Intercessors are Company Veterans, then how are they anything but? Their loadout (at least ones we seen) are the same. The function is also the same.

 

In blue.

 

Well, it seems to be established that no firstborn unit will or should get a 1:1 replacement, in any case.

 

I think the DW will see a full restructure, including maybe new transports as delivery systems, and other such things to make up the differences.

 

Fully agree. Just playing off that point, especially when they said tanks and flyers are being revamped to be good again. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Skywrath

[Gederas]

I just realized....

 

I really, really hope the bikers are given the Ravenwing keyword for Dark Angels. Because they could very easily not do that for us.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

@skywrath - you’re moving the goalposts on me haha! Are they competing with DWK, or company veterans? I’d agree that these new stormshield guys are more comparable with company veterans in terms of potential wargear and options etc (again, this is all speculation at this point). But when was the last time (if ever) someone asked if company veterans were competition for DWK? They fill completely different roles in the army

 

Maybe, maybe, maybe they will get the deathwing keyword, or the option to get it. Depends on their background and on what games workshop want to do with deathwing in the future. But giving them teleport strike seems like a bit of a leap, and as it stands Combined Assault only attaches to the “deathwing” AND “terminator” keywords, so now we’re speculating on two big rules leaps and a fundamental change to the fluff. Not saying it won’t happen, but we’re talking about a shrinking realm of possibility.

 

Do they look awesome? Yes

 

Will they ruin some traitors’ days in melee? Most likely

 

Are they comparable to “primaris company vets”? Speculating, but seems like it

 

Does this mean they provide stiff competition for DWK? Not in my books

[Skywrath]

@skywrath - you’re moving the goalposts on me haha! Are they competing with DWK, or company veterans? I’d agree that these new stormshield guys are more comparable with company veterans in terms of potential wargear and options etc (again, this is all speculation at this point). But when was the last time (if ever) someone asked if company veterans were competition for DWK? They fill completely different roles in the army

 

Just realized that, sorry. They are still competing with the DWK, however I see them as a replacement for both. If you take Berzul's belief that we won't get primaris terminators, then these are the terminators/company veterans thrown into one. Also consider how in the reveal of the 9th, the GW developers implied they want to make the game easier. One of the first steps to do so, in any general conceptual stance is to do that - merge two into one. If you throw in a lot of customization options in terms of wargear to the assault intercessors, bam, there you have it, primaris DWK. The other thing worth mentioning, that lore wise Mark X armor is supposed to be versatile, whether Tacticus, Gravis or Phobos. Seeing how these lovely chaps are wearing Tacticus, lore-wise it wouldn't be hard for them to switch it to Gravis armor (primaris terminator armor) - maybe GW will implement like an upgrade kit to convert one set of armor to another, although then again I don't really see it. The one thing in that sentence I disagree with you on, is that the DWK and the Company Veterans fit completely different roles in the army - if they (the assault intercessors) are the assault marines, then fair enough, point conceded. However if they are replacing the veterans/terminators, then how do they have different roles in the army? They are both elite, and even company veterans can be armed with SS/TH to make them comparable to DW Terminators, just minus the wound.

 

Maybe, maybe, maybe they will get the deathwing keyword, or the option to get it. Depends on their background and on what games workshop want to do with deathwing in the future. But giving them teleport strike seems like a bit of a leap, and as it stands Combined Assault only attaches to the “deathwing” AND “terminator” keywords, so now we’re speculating on two big rules leaps and a fundamental change to the fluff. Not saying it won’t happen, but we’re talking about a shrinking realm of possibility.

 

The other possibility is that just with the GK, we might have a custom model with the above and the keyword attached to it. After reflection, that's probably the most likely scenario. Combined Assault (at least based of the version of the Psychic Awakening book I am running) only says DEATHWING unit, nothing about terminators. Unless that's been FAQ'ed/errated? Either way, at teh very least, I'm sure we will get those assault intercessors with at least the Inner Circle Strategem keyword attached to them, as times goes past.

 

Do they look awesome? Yes

 

Will they ruin some traitors’ days in melee? Most likely. 

 

Make that Space Wolf days in melee, then yes, fully agree, no questions asked ;p

 

Are they comparable to “primaris company vets”? Speculating, but seems like it

 

Does this mean they provide stiff competition for DWK? Not in my books.

 

I never said anything about stiff competition, just competition. Apples to apples, the only thing the DWK have going for them is the FnP with the ancient (which as some lists demonstrated wasn't really needed), and a better armor save of 2+. Everything else, assuming the above assumptions are correct, they are pretty equal, and not to mention cheaper. Only what I was trying to point out, is that they are closer than you think in terms of comparisons.

 

In blue again. 

Edited May 24, 2020 by Skywrath

[Wrath of Bruinen]

The big difference is the teleport strike ability - that’s what makes combined assault meaningful and only useable by terminator units.

 

If these units can somehow get the deathwing keyword, deepstrike and take Thunder hammers, I’ll be happy to revisit my position in this debate. Until then, I still see DWK as the premier dark angels melee unit

 

I do see what you’re saying though, and as time goes on I can see plenty of melee focussed lists making use of them. If they are just power sword/storm shield primaris vets, I can see a particular use for them as an anvil to a DWK hammer, or used a bit more surgically to take in targets where the DWK would be overkill

Edited May 24, 2020 by TheWeepingAngel

[clanfield]

on the volkite pistol shtick..its very similar to the dark angel lt plasma pistol my money is on plasma 

 

 

just my thoughts