9th edition implications for the GK

[Valerian]

Decent chance that the 3W will not apply to Grey Knights, as our Terminators aren’t veterans. Our veteran Terminators (aka Paladins) already have 3 Wounds.

[Skywrath]

The flip-side of that argument is that the GK are already as a chapter the elite of the elite. So the other chapter Veterans would be on the same level as our troops, canonically speaking. Although that would be amazing seeing Paladins with 4 wounds now, can you imagine the hilarity, if the above was the case?

[Telepatrick]

@Skywrath

In 7 ed all termies had 1 wound, while our paladins had 2. When 8 ed drops all termies received 2nd wound, while our pals received 3rd.

So I see two ways, first:

Termies for all chapter incl. our receives +1 wound, and our pallies become 4 wound a piece

Second:

As Valwrian noticed, our termies are troops slot choise, not elite as vanilla termies, so GW might say - you guys do not deserve +1 wound, and your paladins are already 3 wound muffins, so f off and cry

[Skywrath]

@Skywrath

In 7 ed all termies had 1 wound, while our paladins had 2. When 8 ed drops all termies received 2nd wound, while our pals received 3rd.

So I see two ways, first:

Termies for all chapter incl. our receives +1 wound, and our pallies become 4 wound a piece

Second:

As Valwrian noticed, our termies are troops slot choise, not elite as vanilla termies, so GW might say - you guys do not deserve +1 wound, and your paladins are already 3 wound muffins, so f off and cry

 

It's probably what they will do, admittedly. But then again, seeing how we don't have primaris units, they might throw us a bone. Time will tell.

[Captain Coolpants]

Another possibility, is that paladins may remain on 3 wounds,but get a bump in other stats. Maybe a 2+ WS? Or a

better version of look out sir (ignoring the 5 model minimum)? ect.

[Skywrath]

Theoretically, Waking Dreamer mentioned something that I think has a grain of truth in it (in the other thread). If the change applies to terminators, that means ALL terminators, such as Characters such as Voldus and Kaldor. So Kaldor with 8 wounds now, wow. 

 

I could see that change happening to all units, to be honest - you could argue the fact they bumped the points up and the PL for everyone, they had this change in mind, it seems.

[Holier Than Thou]

Decent chance that the 3W will not apply to Grey Knights, as our Terminators aren’t veterans. Our veteran Terminators (aka Paladins) already have 3 Wounds.

This is the problem, according to GW’s own fluff in the GK Codex, our Terminators ARE veterans. So are our Strike Squads. In their own words, by the time a Grey Knight is given his armour he is already equivalent to the veterans of other Space Marine Chapters. And yet in the same book, they have lower leadership than the veterans of every other Chapter. Fluff very rarely translates exactly to rules.

 

Saying that, I think we will get the extra wound. Leadership is the only different stat currently and I can’t see that changing. Where that leaves Paladins though, I don’t know. Maybe 2+ WS, Paragon gets 2+ WS & BS?

Edited August 11, 2020 by Holier Than Thou

[Skywrath]

 

Decent chance that the 3W will not apply to Grey Knights, as our Terminators aren’t veterans. Our veteran Terminators (aka Paladins) already have 3 Wounds.

This is the problem, according to GW’s own fluff in the GK Codex, our Terminators ARE veterans. So are our Strike Squads. In their own words, by the time a Grey Knight is given his armour he is already equivalent to the veterans of other Space Marine Chapters. And yet in the same book, they have lower leadership than the veterans of every other Chapter. Fluff very rarely translates exactly to rules.

 

Saying that, I think we will get the extra wound. Leadership is the only different stat currently and I can’t see that changing. Where that leaves Paladins though, I don’t know. Maybe 2+ WS, Paragon gets 2+ WS & BS?

 

 

I think Paladins will get 4 wounds.

[Waking Dreamer]

I'm confident GKT will receive 3W if the other SM Termies start with 3W as well. 

 

I'm not as sure Paladins will receive 4W in turn though. I'd probably say they could keep their 3W, up the entire squad to WS2+ and finally get the Bodyguard rule that so very much matches their actual lore. They should really be the GK's equivalent to the UM's Victrix Guard, DG's Deathshroud Terminators, or Tau's XV8 Crisis Bodyguards. This would give them an important / perfect niche in protecting our GK characters as to set themselves apart from the 3W Terminators.  

 

Bulwark of Titan: "Roll a D6 each time a friendly GREY KNIGHTS CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of this unit. On a 2+, a model from this unit can intercept that hit – the CHARACTER does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound."

 

This way, even a single Paladin model can still protect GK Characters (even in combat), and the minimal investment of a 3-man Paladin unit will be near as effective in protecting characters as a 5-man Terminator unit (who stops shielding characters when it is down to 2 models or less). 

[Skywrath]

I'm confident GKT will receive 3W if the other SM Termies start with 3W as well. 

 

I'm not as sure Paladins will receive 4W in turn though. I'd probably say they could keep their 3W, up the entire squad to WS2+ and finally get the Bodyguard rule that so very much matches their actual lore. They should really be the GK's equivalent to the UM's Victrix Guard, DG's Deathshroud Terminators, or Tau's XV8 Crisis Bodyguards. This would give them an important / perfect niche in protecting our GK characters as to set themselves apart from the 3W Terminators.  

 

Bulwark of Titan: "Roll a D6 each time a friendly GREY KNIGHTS CHARACTER loses a wound whilst they are within 3" of this unit. On a 2+, a model from this unit can intercept that hit – the CHARACTER does not lose a wound but this unit suffers a mortal wound."

 

This way, even a single Paladin model can still protect GK Characters (even in combat), and the minimal investment of a 3-man Paladin unit will be near as effective in protecting characters as a 5-man Terminator unit (who stops shielding characters when it is down to 2 models or less). 

 

That would be a cool idea, but what they could do is make Paladins 3W, but T5. I mean theoretically, Paladins are supposed to be tough right, even in lore? Perfect way to distinguish terminators from paladins, otherwise you essentially have a terminator squad in both Elite and Troops units for no reason at all. They have to distinguish the two of them somehow. 

[Holier Than Thou]

How would an extra point of Toughness distinguish them more than an additional special rule, or better WS/BS?

[Skywrath]

How would an extra point of Toughness distinguish them more than an additional special rule, or better WS/BS?

 

I never compared T5 to those two rules, I was just merely suggesting another path.

 

Here is my reasoning, as much as that rule is fluffy and cool, it's also fairly broken. You are giving a squad of potential 10 paladins the ability to Heroic Intervene (at hypothetically 3"), and with an Apothecary nearby, to completely negate it. With that in mind, you why not give them a FNP or something along those lines? WS/BS is also a good route though, however I think T5 is more reasonable. The reasoning for that is, lore-wise paladins are different from Terminators - I believe the fluff makes them out to be GM's in Training, after they killed the each of the four heralds of the Chaos Gods. By that reasoning, they done things that Terminators couldn't do, and also without armor. So being GM's in Training, they would have access to Artificer Terminator gear, which is typically more powerful than regular terminator armor. Hence the T5, and also because it's the easiest thing to do to distinguish them.

 

Look forward to your response.

[Holier Than Thou]

The Paragon is a Grand Master in training. With your suggestion, he become less tough when he becomes one?

 

Doesn’t make sense.

[Skywrath]

The Paragon is a Grand Master in training. With your suggestion, he become less tough when he becomes one?

 

Doesn’t make sense.

 

EDIT: Ok, I see. Yeah, alright point conceded. What about giving them FNP?

Edited August 11, 2020 by Skywrath

[Holier Than Thou]

So you’re making Grand Masters Toughness 5 as well?

 

Edit: You edited your post before my response. But the same point remains. If they get FNP, do Grand Masters get it too? Do you see the problem?

 

Adding the Bodyguard rule makes sense and can be explained why Grand Masters don’t have it, because they are the ones being guarded.

 

Likewise, increasing their WS/BS is fine because they don’t suddenly lose it after being promoted.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Holier Than Thou

[Skywrath]

Let's look at this from my perspective.

 

If I was a GW developer, (yes, we would all be screwed) I'd give the Grand Masters, Kaldor and the others T5, as lore-wise they should. Seeing how I'm not, it won't happen, meaning I had to change my perspective. 

 

I suppose that rule works, but again, from GW's perspective, not happening. Most of the people on this forum are fairly pragmatic individuals, so I'll tailor my response accordingly to that fact - the most we will see from Paladins, if at all, is 4 wounds. They have to distinguish them from terminators.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Captain Coolpants]

See I quite like the body guard type rule which is why I suggested it. I definitely think it'll help add more flavour to lists.

 

My reason for this train of thought, is that we'd likely see an increase in small 3 man paladin squads, maybe 1 or 2 of them in each list to protect our characters, and then an increase in regular terminators for our a our troops. In my opinion, thats much better than nothing but basic terminators or nothing paladins. Now we have a reason for both in the same list.

[Skywrath]

Piggy-backing of the suggestion that our TROOPS unit are the veterans/elite of the other chapters, a recent change has the Veterans at 2W. Hopefully that applies to our Strike Squads/Interceptor Squads. 

 

Although, these design choices have me baffled - GW is trying to push everyone to primaris, then why buff firstborn choices? I can't believe for a moment, that the criticism of everyone finally got to them.

[Waking Dreamer]

Based on some Veteran Marine datasheet leaks I think the GKs NFW stats (from power weapon equivalents) could be as follows:

 

- Twin Falchions = S User AP-2 Dd3 (probably +1A)

- Force Sword = S+1 AP-3 Dd3

- Force Halberd = S+2 AP-2 Dd3

- Warding Stave = S+3 AP-1 Dd3

- Daemonhammer = Sx2 AP-3 D4

 

Still speculative, but if it is like this any standout changes to our choices?

[Waking Dreamer]

With the leaks so far only aligning to +1W for SM "Veterans" I'm actually really unsure now if any of this gets translated to GKs now.

 

Nothing indicates SM tacticals are getting +1W, and it maybe unlikely as they then begin to step on Primaris Intercessor's toes a bit too much. And nothing on a Strike Squads datasheet (in 8Ed at least) indicate GW thinks they are any more than GKs equivalent to SM tacticals...

 

Really not sure now. Ironically we are in a similar boat as CSM when it comes to these upgrades. Maybe if their Cultist Marines get +1W our Strikes (or maybe our Purifiers?) will get +1W?

[Captain Coolpants]

Maaan I almost don't even care if they don't make regular Marines 2 wounds. And keep it to just veterans named models only.

I'm completely happy with the 3 wound terminators haha.

 

Although it would be cool if they made our purifiers veterans. Just to distinguish them more from being the current less useful same cost versions of strike squads

[RandyB]

Purifiers ought to be veterans. That's the biggest disconnect for me with the entire GK lineup.

[Telepatrick]

It would be sad if deathwatch troops will receive +1 wound, because they are literally veterans, while our PA troops not:(

[Corvus Fortis]

The new FAQ finally confirmed, that loss of Psychic Focus is intended and we shouldn't wait for it to return even in codex. IDK, how we should deal reliable damage to elite units/vehicles. I even think about brining 3 vendreads pre-PA style.

[Skywrath]

The new FAQ finally confirmed, that loss of Psychic Focus is intended and we shouldn't wait for it to return even in codex. IDK, how we should deal reliable damage to elite units/vehicles. I even think about brining 3 vendreads pre-PA style.

 

Well that absolutely sucks. Although they did say the psychic might of that army is reflected later in 9th, and with the Ritual of the Damned updates, so that gives me some hope.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Skywrath