9th edition implications for the GK

[Silver-Fox]

Why are they better?

You have one astral aim, and they give up abhor the witch and can't save 10 slots of dudes.

Plus is they have 2 shots rocket more and profit from tides.

Edited August 31, 2020 by Silver-Fox

[Corvus Fortis]

You have one astral aim, and they give up abhor the witch and can't save 10 slots of dudes.

 

 

We are giving abhor as soon as we have 5+ units. We have just swallow it. The objective is horrible concept. I hope, it will be removed from later tournament packs. But hurting the composition will make things only worse. 

 

LRs doesn't save anyone. Outflanking eradicators can either one-shot them or force degradation. T8 2+ still won't save you in current meta. Knights would be godly otherwise. In addition, you can easily lose one-two models, while disembarking. The best protection is obscuring terrain, mind you. 

 

Plus is they have 2 shots rocket more and profit from tides.

 

 

Not only this. They are two different units and force to split fire. They can be in different locations at the same time. They have low profile and can be easily hidden behind ruins. They can cast astral aim on themselves, LR has to be baby-sitted. Finally, dreads have -1 dmg strat and 6+ FnP, which make them have effectively more wounds than LR.

 

EDIT: Forgot the most impotant thing. Dreads are BS 2+ while LR is 3+. 

New edition solved one of LR's problems - it is harder to tie it down with chaff - but brought advanced melta, so killing them become even easier. I believe, with +1 wound all-infantry GK would still be the best way to go. 

 

For now, the best thing I can think about is filling an LRC with 15 interceptors and launching it forward behing central obscuring terrain. On turn 2 interceptors will disembark and have guaranteed 12" movement. They can shoot, they can charge whatever they want too. But I don't consider this to be competitive. 

Edited August 31, 2020 by Corvus Fortis

[Silver-Fox]

Here is the Link to Richard Sieglers GK List with explanation. Intrestiing that he uses double chaplain.

The psilencer purgation squads make sense, when he explains it. But do you think 1 5 man tarminator and 2x5 strike Troops are enough for us?

 

[Closet Skeleton]

 

We are giving abhor as soon as we have 5+ units. We have just swallow it. The objective is horrible concept. I hope, it will be removed from later tournament packs. But hurting the composition will make things only worse.

Grey Knights are in a way better place with Abhor than Guard are with Thin Their Ranks/Bring it Down. 9th ed codexes are going to have unique secondaries so that's probably going to balance out how some armies are just easier to score against while likely causing their own issues that make complaints with the core secondaries look quaint.

[Silver-Fox]

Regarding Abhor the Witch

It would help us as Gk when characters would give 3 points for that secondary. We are Character dependend, as far as I know and we could play some of them more aggressive. As it stands now with abhor and "headhunter" we give up 8 points for one frontline character.

[Corvus Fortis]

Nothing can save us from Abhor the Witch right now, because bringing 5 psykers of any kind would give it up. This and Titanslayers are horrible game design. 

[Skywrath]

So far no new GK codexes announced, however the fact that they acknowledged we have super special vehicles, could mean things are coming for us, when they revealed the land speeder. Having my faith sorely tested here..

[Corvus Fortis]

So far no new GK codexes announced, however the fact that they acknowledged we have super special vehicles, could mean things are coming for us, when they revealed the land speeder. Having my faith sorely tested here..

 

 

 

Or that Deathwatch are getting all the new shiny stuff, while we are being stuck with rhinos, LRs and couple of flyers. 

 

FW compendium will be a great indicator of new stuff for us. If we are still getting 4 entries, nothing changes for us.

 

Also, new bolt weapons for heavy intercessors put our psycannons to shame.

[Skywrath]

No, they specifically mentioned us when they said super special vehicles. But I see your point and take it accordingly :)

[Corvus Fortis]

No, they specifically mentioned us when they said super special vehicles. But I see your point and take it accordingly 

 

 

I am pretty sure, that they were exaggerating and by "super special" they mean only NDKs. I'd like to be pleasently surprised though.

[Waking Dreamer]

 

Also, new bolt weapons for heavy intercessors put our psycannons to shame.

 

If our psycannons went to Damage 2 by default, do you think they would keep up with all the new Infantry weapons coming out of the woodwork for Primaris?

 

24" range autocannons for mass Infantry doesn't seem too crazy by Primaris infantry shooting standards anymore...

[Skywrath]

Can say from personal experience - don't think so. If they become 3 flat damage, then that's another story altogether. However, here is where things get interesting, the AP. One could make the argument, that due to the marine meta, having high AP weaponry is pointless, on the account of the new indomitus units having "low invulns" due to stormshields and things like that. Based of this, and the fact that 3W seems to be the new norm for primaris, I think we are leaning towards things that do hefty flat damage (so demon hammers, and our relics weaponry). Another way we could counter the marine meta, is quantity > quality. The GMNDK's psilencer with the psybolt ammunition strat comes to mind - Heavy 12 shots, at S5, -1AP, D3 damage each, could very well could be the new marine killer, based on the amount of shots, even factoring in D3 variation (a GK chaplain is pretty much screaming from the sidelines, pick me!). 

 

Personally, my GK are still with psycannons (as they are glued that way), but with all the above in mind, we might see purgation squads been good again if they come with 2W and armed with psilencers. Perhaps even a chaplain aiding them with the reroll damage litany. But that's just my opinion, keen to hear your thoughts on this.

[Waking Dreamer]

GMNDK with 2CP Strat vs T5 W3 Sv3+ (Gravis Armour Primaris)

- Gatling Psilencer = 2.92 models

- Heavy Psycannon = 1.05 models

 

Infantry with 2CP Strat vs T5 W3 Sv3+ (Gravis Armour Primaris)

- 4x Psilencer = 5.33 models (not moving)

- 4x Psilencer = 4 models (movement)

- 4x Psycannon = 2.12 models (not moving)

- 4x Psycannon = 1.53 models (movement)

 

Infantry with 2CP Strat vs T4 W3 Sv2+ (TEQ)

- 4x Psilencer = 3.56 models (not moving)

- 4x Psilencer = 2.67 models (movement)

- 4x Psycannon = 1.97 models (not moving)

- 4x Psycannon = 1.42 models (movement)

 

^ The numbers for the Gatling Psilencer is assuming the best = 3 damage per shot

- The numbers for Infantry is assuming in ToC and an average of 3 damage per shot for psilencers.

- No re-rolls included for the infantry.

 

If we assume regular psycannons started with 2 damage per shot / 3 damage with ToC:

Infantry with 2CP Strat vs T5 W3 Sv3+ (Gravis Armour Primaris)

- 4x Psycannon = 4.74 models (not moving)

- 4x Psycannon = 3.56 models (movement)

 

infantry with 2CP Strat vs T4 W3 Sv2+ (TEQ)

- 4x Psycannon = 4.44 models (not moving)

- 4x Psycannon = 3.33 models (movement)

 

So, if GW/GK play-testers saw fit to improve infantry psycannons for 9Ed, vs current psilencers - they would do slightly worse against Gravis armour, and do slightly better against terminator armour. Though you risk doing worse damage with the swingy d3 psilencer, but point for point is overall better for heavy infantry if you spend the 2CP.

 

Design-wise that probably leaves psycannons for a niche target of light vehicles T6/T7 (T8 with ToC).

Edited September 13, 2020 by Waking Dreamer

[Skywrath]

Alright, so this is also with the assumption that is a squad of 5 in each unit right? 

 

So statistically speaking the gatling psilencer is superior in both regards to the regular psycannons. Now let's factor in re-rolls from Kaldor and the Chaplain, how much more 

units would that kill? Best case scenario, even with the re-rolls, we kill of a squad of Gravis intercessors/aggressors/inceptors in one round of shooting. Even if we don't, we still force a morale check on them, which admittedly would be more of an annoyance if anything.

 

Now, it was my impression that the GMNDK's psycannon was 2 damage per pop, instead of one - did you factor that in your calculations, because 1.05 models looks a bit low to me?

Same with the gatling psilencer - 12 shots at S5,-1AP,D3 apiece should kill more than 3 units, no? Especially if you factor in the re-rolls for the GMNDK (yes, I decided to bring that in, because contrary to the purgation squad's psilencers, it's built in, instead of positioning a BC/Kaldor near said squad). I'm no math whiz, but I think the statistical average for killing something with that profile (not factoring in the re-rolls), should be closer to 5, no?

 

Everything else looks fine, however then we have the other factors, which is probably more of an annoyance to calculate/discuss on top of other things. 

 

The other question is this - how would these perform against a Gravis unit with Transhuman Physiology? I imagine our chances from 5, would be down to about 2-3? And what about average case scenario?

Edited September 13, 2020 by Skywrath

[Waking Dreamer]

Keep in mind, before each model is killed, at least 3 damage needs to get through the hit roll, wound roll, and then through their armour save. Because these are Gravis and Terminator armour they come with 3 wounds per model.

The heavy psycannon only comes with 6 shots, and even at 2 damage each can never kill more than 3 models at absolute best (9 wounds through required). That can only happen if ALL 6 shot hits (2+/1s re-roll), wounds (3+ roll), and no armour save is made (enemy 5+ roll, after AP-2). Same with the Gatling psilencer, out of those 12 shots - each one needs a 4+ (S5 vs T5) wound roll. Statistically, half of them will fail. Its saving grace is the potential 3 damage each, which I actually included...though average wise they would be no better than the heavy psycannon, needing at least 2 shots to wound AND get passed the armour save (enemy 4+ roll now, since it is only AP-1), to kill one W3 model. I'd rather point a Heavy psycannon at a T6/T7 vehicle so I don't waste a 2 damage shot against a W3 model with 1 wound left.

I can do some more calculations later, but the main take away is currently GK special weapons are okay at best by themselves. With 2CP investment and ToC they become better but still not great. The heavy psycannon probably needs a flat 3 damage (the Predator autocannon has this), to make them worth pointing at Terminators and Gravis now. Current psycannons are pretty poor in general, and psilencers will do similar performance for half the points...I certainly hope GK play-testers realised this.

And since one of the main selling points for 9Ed codexs is a ground up approach to unit and weapon profiles, as seen with lot of datasheet changes, GW only having to look at 3 special weapon types for GKs, if there is going to be a change it will happen for the 9Ed Codex. As seen in 8Ed, they don't make changes after the Codex.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Waking Dreamer

[Corvus Fortis]

Keep in mind, that currently the most used chapter is salamandres and they ignore AP -1. Gravis Intercessors are not only survivable - they can bite too. Executor Bolters will one-shot our strike squads even with second wound. Their range is crazy too. But rapid-fire ones are even better. They are S5 with AP and rapid fire. They can take down heavy infantry just by the amount of shots. Of course, they could be balanced by price... but just look at eradicators. GW WILL make them cheap, I am 90% sure. They are 3w t5 3+ units with obsec - one of the best units to score objectives in the edition about claiming objectives and surviving. 

 

And we are always short on CP. Psilencer will only reliably kill a gravis marine under tide of convergence, because of D3 damage.  And they HAVE to get chaplain's buff to pierce through AP-ignoring 3+. 

Also, any heavy weapon units will be focused and taken down immediately - marines have more than enough firepower for that. New Strom Speeders are both moderately durable and bring lots of guns. 

 

I think, we should look at mortal wounds once again. Librarian with sanctic shard+vortex can deal a lot of damage. Maybe, take relic banner once again? 

[Skywrath]

@Corvus, that's a fair point, and after looking at the data-sheets for the new units, I'm glad I don't play my Dark Angels. I don't want to play a faction that's overpowered as that, while with the Grey Knights, while strong, you still have to try to win. 

 

Let's look at mortal wounds - I run two vortexes in any of my lists for exact reason (even before this :cussery), but I do wonder whether in this meta, we can somehow get the purifiers in melee combat so they can smash through a primaris marine blob with their smite. Other than that, I'm at a loss for words what to do - unless we try a melee focused GK army, instead of shooty focused one. I'm already having some success in deep-striking my paladins, equipping them with spears, and choosing grind them down, linebreaker and assassinate.

[Waking Dreamer]

Weapon changes confirmed: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/14/codex-space-marines-weapons-and-wargear-updates/?utm_source=CUSTOMERS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=GW_14th_September_Space_Marines_ENG&utm_content=&utm_term=_&m_i=dStKvMIf%2BJjLUGIu8Q3pysu68Fgbj3TnA_nuIFrAglhH4KaxneN83qDnCUbBh3wD4kpCFikoU7AeaUwObKtqsNqopHOldv

 

Everyone (Draigo) gets the new Storm shield stats: +1 armour Sv, 4++

 

Also, Power Weapon changes confirmed:

 

 

^ Along the lines of what I predicted earlier:

 

Based on some Veteran Marine datasheet leaks I think the GKs NFW stats (from power weapon equivalents) could be as follows:

- Twin Falchions = S User AP-2 Dd3 (probably +1A)
- Force Sword = S+1 AP-3 Dd3
- Force Halberd = S+2 AP-2 Dd3
- Warding Stave = S+3 AP-1 Dd3

.

.

 

Thunder/Daemonhammer still not confirmed, considering they skipped such an iconic weapon I'm feeling more likely it will remain Damage 3 now. Am I correct in thinking the weapons are actually a little more balanced now (if they all cost the same)? Force Swords and Halberds would be main stays, with Staves for fringe cases vs T6/T7 monsters/vehicles on the cheap.

 

Time to rearrange your infantry squads based on combat balance? Right now, Im thinking 2 Halberds, 2 Force Swords, and Halberd on Justicar. For each Force Sword wielder, I've also taken one Falchion and strapped it horizontally to the back of the GK's waist, with the handle positioned out to the left-side. So it resembles the GKs own Misericordia/Combat knife - ready to be also used in his off-hand if need be (+1A), depending on what list I'm building. It's a good compromise between WYSIWYG and proxy, but more importantly it just looks really, really cool!

[Skywrath]

Correct me if I am wrong, but that change seems like a nerf for Draigo. The reason I think that is what if Draigo got hit with something that had a -4AP attached to it, he would be saving on armor save 5 (6-1 (saving throw)) and on his invuln 4. Which if I am mathematically correct, means that he saves approximately high 40, low 50ish percent of the time. Although with the power sword stat-line in mind, does that mean that Draigo's sword is either S9 (S4+1) or is now S5? 

 

Another thing worth considering is the indomitus captain with his relic storm-shield with the 5+ FNP against all wounds and the 4+ invuln, do you think this might apply to any named/important characters? Because I'd see that as a nice compromise of not having a 3+ storm-shield anymore.

 

I generally would tend to agree with you in terms of staves/halberds and staves, even if staves are S6. As I mentioned earlier, having low AP on your weapons seems to be the way to go when having a storm-shield heavy marine meta. 

 

Thank god, I had my strikes/interceptors already with swords and my justicar with a demon hammer! Fully like that idea with the falchions, I might have to steal that haha!

 

Now let's wait until 10th edition where swords become useless and all demon hammers is the way to go, whee! That would be a real kicker - repainting all weapons and cutting swords from the wrists and finding creative ways to glue demon hammers on marines (I'm being sarcastic in case anyone wonders). 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Skywrath

[Waking Dreamer]

Draigo's Storm Shield should do:

- Better vs AP-1

- Same vs AP-2

- Worse vs AP-3/-4

 

Nothing really to say he gets the relic Storm shield nor a S9 Titan Sword. S9 helps against T8, otherwise everything else is still the same.

 

I've included some damage numbers for the probably new NFW stats:

 

PAGK Attacks:

vs T3 Sv5+

Twin Falchions 3A = 2.67 Damage

Force Sword 2A = 1.78

Force Halberd 2A = 2.22

Warding Stave 2A = 1.85

 

T3 S4+

Twin Falchions 3A = 2.22 Damage

Force Sword 2A = 1.78

Force Halberd 2A = 1.85

Warding Stave 2A = 1.48

 

T3 Sv3+

Twin Falchions 3A = 1.78 Damage

Force Sword 2A = 1.48

Force Halberd 2A = 1.48

Warding Stave 2A = 1.11

 

T4 Sv3+

Twin Falchions 3A = 1.33 Damage

Force Sword 2A = 1.48

Force Halberd 2A =1.19

Warding Stave 2A = 0.89

 

T4 Sv2+ (5++)

Twin Falchions 3A = 1 Damage

Force Sword 2A = 1.19

Force Halberd 2A = 0.89

Warding Stave 2A = 0.59

 

T5 Sv3+

Twin Falchions 3A = 0.89 Damage

Force Sword 2A = 1.11

Force Halberd 2A = 1.19

Warding Stave 2A = 0.89

 

T5 SV2+ (4++)

Twin Falchions 3A = 0.67 Damage

Force Sword 2A = 0.67

Force Halberd 2A = 0.89

Warding Stave 2A = 0.59

 

T6 Sv2+ (4++)

Twin Falchions 3A = 0.33 Damage

Force Sword 2A = 0.44

Force Halberd 2A = 1

Warding Stave 2A = 0.89

 

Terminator Attacks:

vs T3 Sv5+

Twin Falchions 4A = 3.56

Force Sword 3A = 2.67

Force Halberd 3A = 3.33

Warding Stave 3A = 2.78

 

T3 S4+

Twin Falchions 4A = 2.96

Force Sword 3A = 2.67

Force Halberd 3A = 2.78

Warding Stave 3A = 2.22

 

T3 Sv3+

Twin Falchions 4A = 2.37

Force Sword 3A = 2.22

Force Halberd 3A = 2.22

Warding Stave 3A = 1.67

 

T4 Sv3+

Twin Falchions 4A = 1.78

Force Sword 3A = 2.22

Force Halberd 3A = 1.78

Warding Stave 3A = 1.33

 

T4 Sv2+ (5++)

Twin Falchions 4A = 1.33

Force Sword 3A = 1.78

Force Halberd 3A = 1.33

Warding Stave 3A = 0.89

 

T5 Sv3+

Twin Falchions 4A = 1.19

Force Sword 3A = 1.67

Force Halberd 3A = 1.78

Warding Stave 3A = 1.33

 

T5 SV2+ (4++)

Twin Falchions 4A = 0.89

Force Sword 3A = 1

Force Halberd 3A = 1.33

Warding Stave 3A = 0.89

 

T6 Sv2+ (4++)

Twin Falchions 4A = 0.89

Force Sword 3A = 0.67

Force Halberd 3A = 1

Warding Stave 3A = 1.33

 

Paladin Attacks

vs T3 Sv5+

Twin Falchions 5A = 4.44

Force Sword 4A = 3.56

Force Halberd 4A = 4.44

Warding Stave 4A = 3.7

 

T3 S4+

Twin Falchions 5A = 3.7

Force Sword 4A = 3.56

Force Halberd 4A = 3.7

Warding Stave 4A = 2.96

 

T3 Sv3+

Twin Falchions 5A = 2.96

Force Sword 4A = 2.96

Force Halberd 4A = 2.96

Warding Stave 4A = 2.22

 

T4 Sv3+

Twin Falchions 5A = 2.22

Force Sword 4A = 2.96

Force Halberd 4A = 2.37

Warding Stave 4A = 1.78

 

T4 Sv2+ (5++)

Twin Falchions 5A = 1.67

Force Sword 4A = 2.37

Force Halberd 4A = 1.78

Warding Stave 4A = 1.19

 

T5 Sv3+

Twin Falchions 5A = 1.48

Force Sword 4A = 2.22

Force Halberd 4A =2.37

Warding Stave 4A =1.78

 

T5 SV2+ (4++)

Twin Falchions 5A = 1.11

Force Sword 4A = 1.33

Force Halberd 4A = 1.78

Warding Stave 4A = 1.19

 

T6 Sv2+ (4++)

Twin Falchions 5A = 1.11

Force Sword 4A = 0.89

Force Halberd 4A = 1.33

Warding Stave 4A = 1.19

 

[Silver-Fox]

With Str6 Helebards, we still wound Gravis dudes on 3+ and -2 rend is enough to get the Bladeguard (2+ as 4++) to the invul. So I will keep my Helebards on my dudes.

 

When Draigo gets the 4++, he will be weaker as a beatstick. What he had going for him was, that he didn't need sanctuary. So now a Voldus with Booklore is the better Beatstick.

So sad was planing on taking an armoured resiliance + cp power beatstick draigo in a soup list.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Silver-Fox

[Holier Than Thou]

Games Workshop being Games Workshop, there’s absolutely nothing in that article that confirms these changes would apply to our melee weapons, which are Nemesis Force Weapons, not Power Weapons.

 

Don’t get too excited. (But fingers crossed).

[Skywrath]

With Str6 Helebards, we still wound Gravis dudes on 3+ and -2 rend is enough to get the Bladeguard (2+ as 4++) to the invul. So I will keep my Helebards on my dudes.

 

When Draigo gets the 4++, he will be weaker as a beatstick. What he had going for him was, that he didn't need sanctuary. So now a Voldus with Booklore is the better Beatstick.

So sad was planing on taking an armoured resiliance + cp power beatstick draigo in a soup list.

 

See my previous assumption where he might get a 5+ FNP, similar to an Indomitus Captain. Also, it's HALBERDS, not Helebards. But yeah, the Draigo nerf hurts. 

 

Games Workshop being Games Workshop, there’s absolutely nothing in that article that confirms these changes would apply to our melee weapons, which are Nemesis Force Weapons, not Power Weapons.

 

Don’t get too excited. (But fingers crossed).

 

Have some optimism mate, the 3W terminators stat update upgrade applies to us, and the 2W strikes/purgation squad/purifiers as well. I have little to no reason to believe we get that, without the weapons boosts. And even if we don't get it at first, we'll get it  later (to the tune of later is better than never). The only thing you can be certain about is that our damage will still be D3, whether or not with the added damage included.  

[Corvus Fortis]

I don't see how new rules hurt draigo. He couldn't benifit from sanctuary before, now he can. Unless they universaly nerf invulns to be capped at 4++ (which will hit us in many ways, but that's a different talk), just throw sanctuary on him (if he is exposed, paladins are probably dead anyway) and get back 3++. But now he will have AP reduction by 1 or even 2, if he is in cover. 

 

He didn't get worse, he just became different.

 

And I agree, force weapons may not get +1 S, because GW could think that d3 damage is good enough.

 

Have some optimism mate, the 3W terminators stat update upgrade applies to us, and the 2W strikes/purgation squad/purifiers as well.

 

 

 

Actually, this buff can backfire and make us WORSE. D2 weapon saturation is getting ridiculous at this point. Our 2w strikes will die as fast to d2 weapons as 1w ones. They are going to be a bit more survivable against Dd3. Way better against D1, I agree, but with D2 being super-common, this doesn't help much. And costs are confirmed to be increased. We will get less bodies = worse objective scoring. 3W terminators will become essential for objective scoring. We will need to bring as much, as we can to compete and just won't have enough points to take anything else. If we apply power level = pts*20 formula, we are getting strikes in about 24-25 pts per fully equipped model. And this will be comparable to Heavy Intercessors.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Corvus Fortis

[Skywrath]

The flip side of that argument, is that instead of choosing to sanctuary a paladin squad or a GMNDK (let's assume both of them you run in the list), you now have three people to choose from rather than two. So yes, you could make the argument that this encourages GK players to think more about strategic choices, but regardless he isn't going to be as "shiny" anymore. Silver-Fox is right, why should we take Draigo now (despite his re-rolls to hits), when Voldus does that, and more? Inb4 they nerf Voldus so now that he has to subtract 1 from his hits with his hammer, come to think of things. 

 

Not to mention there is a fluff angle to this as well - Draigo is supposed to pretty much eat everyone alive in both psychic sense, and physical sense (with the notable exceptions being Abbadon, Azrael and other legendary figures I'm too lazy to name) - having a 4+ invuln to Draigo is pretty much saying, hey look, I'm just another generic chapter master of <insert chapter here>. As Grey Knights, we are supposed to be the elite of the elite, how is that anything but? We lost psychic focus, we aren't getting primaris units, and now one of the few things left we have going for us, took a dip in survivability (in all fairness, I'm being a bit dramatic here, but you get the point). 

 

Anticipating someone's response: No, I don't want Grey Knights to be overpowered, I just want their elite status to be reflected better in game. 

 

EDIT: Responding to Corvus' updated post: 

 

You aren't wrong, in assuming that it might be a nerf - and I don't think I can spin this in any meaningful positive way. Best case scenario, we might see units such as Purgation Squads finally make an appearance. Worst case scenario (which is probably the most likely case), we are just pre-9th GK, albeit with inflated stat-lines. Perhaps the most positive thing I can think of, is that just about everything thinks that the new indomitus reveals and their subsequent stat-sheets are overpowered. So which would mean that it gets nerfed, while our strikes wounds get untouched. So in the short-term, sure that's a nerf, but in the long-term, it's still a small buff at most. Which I suppose could sort of justify the 24-25 points per unit, even if we lose out to T5, but at the cost of knowing smite, which trades defence for offence. 

 

With regards to Terminators scoring points, I agree, however if paladins do get 4W, then we are essentially playing paladin bomb again for this edition. Another thing worth asking, doesn't GW review the points value of units on a half-yearly/yearly basis? If so, this could be a hidden long-term buff, no?

Edited September 15, 2020 by Skywrath