9th edition implications for the GK

[Captain Coolpants]

I have to agree with some of these points. We have no idea if nemesis weapons will get the same updates as regular power weapons. So definitely don't get excited until we know.

 

Also I'm starting to feel less enthusiastic about the 2 wounds on power armour as well...

 

Because the shear amount of multi damage weapons that Marines themselves can field is just ridiculous. And obviously GW will need to alter xenos weapons to compensate for the sudden jump in marine toughness too. We'll basically be paying for this extra wound, and realistically be getting nothing additional in return. Just a smaller force.

 

Im starting to feel all doom and gloom in typical grey knights forum fashion again lol.

[Corvus Fortis]

The flip side of that argument, is that instead of choosing to sanctuary a paladin squad or a GMNDK (let's assume both of them you run in the list),

 

 

The very first thing I mentioned is that if you want to throw sanctuary on draigo, your paladins/gmndk is already dead, and you cannot screen your characters properly. Also, I wouldn't do it normaly, but Heed the Prognosticars is an option too. Eats CP, but I you need badly to protect Draigo from high AP, why not?

 

Silver-Fox is right, why should we take Draigo now (despite his re-rolls to hits), when Voldus does that, and more? 

 

 

Well, reroll hit rolls and inbuilt AP reduction.+1 wound and better AP on the sword are minor advantages too. I also find Voldus additional cast redundant. But it depends on playstyle. I still don't think that they are competing and I'd like to take both, if possible. They are both durable and great beatsticks.  

 

As for fluff, well, I am too used to inconsistency between fluff and rules. I realy hope, that we won't suffer from "first codex" syndrome and that we will be FAQed to have 2 wounds, instead of waiting for codex. Maybe, it is hard to make a book worse than codex Grey Knights 2018.

 

Best case scenario, we might see units such as Purgation Squads finally make an appearance.

 

 

It only depends on how our psy-weapons will be changed. They didn't touch inquisitorial versions in PA, but there can be something different in our codex. IA compendium could give us a hint, if changes are coming anytime soon. The main winning unit from 2 wounds is interceptors, because terminators cannot reach their mobility. They are truly unique and their effect cannot be easily replicated.

 

Which I suppose could sort of justify the 24-25 points per unit, even if we lose out to T5, but at the cost of knowing smite, which trades defence for offence. 

 

 

 

Single MW is not worth such a cost. I hope, we are getting full smite in Codex. 

 

 

With regards to Terminators scoring points, I agree, however if paladins do get 4W, then we are essentially playing paladin bomb again for this edition. Another thing worth asking, doesn't GW review the points value of units on a half-yearly/yearly basis? If so, this could be a hidden long-term buff, no?

 

 

 

 Actually, because of damage distribution, moving from 3w to 4w is not as good as moving from 2w to 3w. 4w model dies from gamage 2 as fast as 3w model. It is better against D1 and D3, but D2 weapons are very common. And you are paying more for a 4w model than 3w model. But terminators, unlike paladins, are filling troop slots and have obsec. The latter is essential in 9th. 

 

Unfortunately, terminators die to quickly from common D2 weapons. When we are getting 3w, I will definitely vote for termies. Maybe, a 10-man paladin squad will have a place, but double bomb doesn't look as good. 

 

As for point changes, yes, we should wait for winter.

[Corvus Fortis]

Im starting to feel all doom and gloom in typical grey knights forum fashion again lol.

 

 

We are just getting 2018 flashbacks, brother. We are not tier 4 faction again, just got unexpectedly nerfed by new edition missions and removal of Psychic Focus. We still can compete and win.

[Skywrath]

 

The flip side of that argument, is that instead of choosing to sanctuary a paladin squad or a GMNDK (let's assume both of them you run in the list),

 

 

The very first thing I mentioned is that if you want to throw sanctuary on draigo, your paladins/gmndk is already dead, and you cannot screen your characters properly. Also, I wouldn't do it normaly, but Heed the Prognosticars is an option too. Eats CP, but I you need badly to protect Draigo from high AP, why not?

 

Point conceded, however if you are running paladin bombs, you'd want to spare every CP you get though, wouldn't you.

 

Silver-Fox is right, why should we take Draigo now (despite his re-rolls to hits), when Voldus does that, and more? 

 

 

Well, reroll hit rolls and inbuilt AP reduction.+1 wound and better AP on the sword are minor advantages too. I also find Voldus additional cast redundant. But it depends on playstyle. I still don't think that they are competing and I'd like to take both, if possible. They are both durable and great beatsticks.  

 

As for fluff, well, I am too used to inconsistency between fluff and rules. I realy hope, that we won't suffer from "first codex" syndrome and that we will be FAQed to have 2 wounds, instead of waiting for codex. Maybe, it is hard to make a book worse than codex Grey Knights 2018.

 

Fair enough.

 

Best case scenario, we might see units such as Purgation Squads finally make an appearance.

 

 

It only depends on how our psy-weapons will be changed. They didn't touch inquisitorial versions in PA, but there can be something different in our codex. IA compendium could give us a hint, if changes are coming anytime soon. The main winning unit from 2 wounds is interceptors, because terminators cannot reach their mobility. They are truly unique and their effect cannot be easily replicated.

 

Inquisitorial version? I could see interceptors being a staple in any list, thank god I already built 15 of them, just waiting to be painted.

 

Which I suppose could sort of justify the 24-25 points per unit, even if we lose out to T5, but at the cost of knowing smite, which trades defence for offence. 

 

 

 

Single MW is not worth such a cost. I hope, we are getting full smite in Codex.

 

I mean, they also know a psychic power on top of the smite. I still think it's a fair trade, with the caveat they have 2W.  

 

 

With regards to Terminators scoring points, I agree, however if paladins do get 4W, then we are essentially playing paladin bomb again for this edition. Another thing worth asking, doesn't GW review the points value of units on a half-yearly/yearly basis? If so, this could be a hidden long-term buff, no?

 

 

 

Actually, because of damage distribution, moving from 3w to 4w is not as good as moving from 2w to 3w. 4w model dies from gamage 2 as fast as 3w model. It is better against D1 and D3, but D2 weapons are very common. And you are paying more for a 4w model than 3w model. But terminators, unlike paladins, are filling troop slots and have obsec. The latter is essential in 9th. 

 

Unfortunately, terminators die to quickly from common D2 weapons. When we are getting 3w, I will definitely vote for termies. Maybe, a 10-man paladin squad will have a place, but double bomb doesn't look as good. 

 

As for point changes, yes, we should wait for winter.

 

Point conceded again.

 

 

 

Im starting to feel all doom and gloom in typical grey knights forum fashion again lol.

 

 

We are just getting 2018 flashbacks, brother. We are not tier 4 faction again, just got unexpectedly nerfed by new edition missions and removal of Psychic Focus. We still can compete and win.

 

 

That being said, where do you think we are in terms of tiers? I don't think T1, but T2, surely (or A tier depending on your system). 

[Waking Dreamer]

I would like the second half of our complete "Chapter Tactic". And yeah, nothing to say GKs will even get an official CT like the other SM Chapters (even though their unofficial successor chapters are granted the choice of a 2-part mix and match CT).

 

BA, DA, DW and SW all have official 2-part CT now, Iron Hands got reduced to just 2 abilities also. So, I think it would be fair, beneficial to us and contrary to some GK players, won't suddenly make us not distinctly GKs. Wouldn't the army still be GKs but with 2 army-wide abilities (besides just the current +1 to Psychic tests and DtW tests), that distinguishes from every other army...??

[Corvus Fortis]

Inquisitorial version?

 

 

 

Yes, inquisitor can take a psycannon too and it is still 7 -1 1.

 

I mean, they also know a psychic power on top of the smite. I still think it's a fair trade, with the caveat they have 2W.  

 

 

It could be, but rule of one negates this advantage. It will be smite most of the time. Things got better after introduction of Dominus though.

 

 

 

 That being said, where do you think we are in terms of tiers? I don't think T1, but T2, surely (or A tier depending on your system). 

 

Hard to say without tournament statistics, but tier 2, probably. Could be tier 1-1.5 if not for smite nerf. We are good in terms of survivability, but lost our teeth. Still, I think we didn't try everything we could.

 

I would like the second half of our complete "Chapter Tactic". And yeah, nothing to say GKs will even get an official CT like the other SM Chapters (even though their unofficial successor chapters are granted the choice of a 2-part mix and match CT).

 

 

 

They could bring some of our tide rules into chapter-tactics part.

 

Main points for gk are: a) anti-daemon abilities; b) psychic might; c) teleportation mastery. Since our CT is called psychic brotherhood, it should be something connected to psychic powers. Maybe, reroll one psychic test per phase or one DtW test per phase. Maybe, 4+ FnP against perils? +1S on psyhic weapons? I have no good ideas.

[Icosiel]

If they're going for uniformity with how Chapter Tactics are designed, they'll probably wrap Daemon Hunters into Brotherhood of Psykers and just call it good.

[Skywrath]

If they're going for uniformity with how Chapter Tactics are designed, they'll probably wrap Daemon Hunters into Brotherhood of Psykers and just call it good.

 

That was essentially my impression.

 

Also where was this said with the psychic brotherhood bit? I appear to have missed that tidbit of information.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Skywrath

[Waking Dreamer]

 

 

I would like the second half of our complete "Chapter Tactic". And yeah, nothing to say GKs will even get an official CT like the other SM Chapters (even though their unofficial successor chapters are granted the choice of a 2-part mix and match CT).

 

 

 

They could bring some of our tide rules into chapter-tactics part.

 

Main points for gk are: a) anti-daemon abilities; psychic might; c) teleportation mastery. Since our CT is called psychic brotherhood, it should be something connected to psychic powers. Maybe, reroll one psychic test per phase or one DtW test per phase. Maybe, 4+ FnP against perils? +1S on psyhic weapons? I have no good ideas.

 

 

I like that idea a lot actually, 4+++ vs MW Perils or something similar to that. Maybe 5+++ vs MW in the Psychic phase in general?

 

Before, I'd like to think the second ability we had was to continually cast Smite without increasing WC costs. Now that GW has decided that's not good for the overall game, that alternative would be a pretty fair compensation. Instead of being able to dish-out more mind-bullets...we could excel in the opposite by being more bullet-proof to smite spam and the like. 

 

Having 5+++ vs Psychic MW gives us better utility with our own existing offensive powers such as Inner Flame and Vortex of Doom. Pretty cool!

[Waking Dreamer]

With Str6 Helebards, we still wound Gravis dudes on 3+ and -2 rend is enough to get the Bladeguard (2+ as 4++) to the invul. So I will keep my Helebards on my dudes.

 

Halberds will also do better against Custodes Guards with storm shields. And they get the best of everything with the new storrm shield stats:

 

T5 / Sv2+ / Ignore AP-1 / AND keep the 3++. Now those guys will be tough nut to crack in melee!

 

 

 

If they're going for uniformity with how Chapter Tactics are designed, they'll probably wrap Daemon Hunters into Brotherhood of Psykers and just call it good.

 

That was essentially my impression.

 

Also where was this said with the psychic brotherhood bit? I appear to have missed that tidbit of information.

 

 

The Daemon Hunters rule is a completely separate rule from Brotherhood of Psykers.

 

Daemon Hunters is equivalent to Dark Angel's Inner Circle and Jink rule...which again, are completely separate from the Grim Resolve chapter tactic buffs.

 

Would you be okay for GW to merge Inner Circle and / or Jink into DA's CT (limited to  2 abilities), meaning you would forfeit the buffs of 1 or 2 of those rules?

 

Or would you want Inner Circle and Jink to be separate non-CT rules, and just have 2 different abilities for the DA's CT?

[Skywrath]

 

 

 

If they're going for uniformity with how Chapter Tactics are designed, they'll probably wrap Daemon Hunters into Brotherhood of Psykers and just call it good.

 

That was essentially my impression.

 

Also where was this said with the psychic brotherhood bit? I appear to have missed that tidbit of information.

 

 

The Daemon Hunters rule is a completely separate rule from Brotherhood of Psykers.

 

Daemon Hunters is equivalent to Dark Angel's Inner Circle and Jink rule...which again, are completely separate from the Grim Resolve chapter tactic buffs.

 

Would you be okay for GW to merge Inner Circle and / or Jink into DA's CT (limited to  2 abilities), meaning you would forfeit the buffs of 1 or 2 of those rules?

 

Or would you want Inner Circle and Jink to be separate non-CT rules, and just have 2 different abilities for the DA's CT?

 

 

Except the Deamon Hunters rule is passive, while one version of Inner Circe is a stratagem. Jink (and it's myriad variations) applies to things not exclusive to Dark Angels, so that example was a particularly poor one on your end. Not to mention I don't play my Dark Angels anymore (on the account of how broken marines are), so I would be a poor person to ask about such things. However, I do see your point. 

 

Just to clarify - I never implied that I'm satisfied that we have only one half of a rule baked in, I mentioned I wasn't aware of such a thing (again, I'm a noob to GK, so go easy). If I were to ignore both of those points, and answer your question, then yes, I'd want them to be passive. 

[Valerian]

Huge Change: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/16/core-units-and-characters/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Facebook&utm_campaign=40kCoreUnits16Sep2020&utm_content=40kCoreUnits16Sep2020&fbclid=IwAR1f2eV4y4o88uWt4-eVKEiptHSDo4iwnEAYIf3fPVELtusybfRaJ5m8Lh4

[librisrouge]

 

And I love it. It has always seemed weird that characters could advise themselves. And it isn't like this will automatically mean that character won't get re-rolls. They might have a special ability to applies to themselves or is worded to work on both self AND Core. I could see Yarrick no getting the generic re-roll 1s he grants but benefit from the re-rolls against Orks.

Edited September 16, 2020 by librisrouge

[Icosiel]

They might have a special ability to applies to themselves or is worded to work on both self AND covid.

 

I'm sorry, what?

[librisrouge]

 

They might have a special ability to applies to themselves or is worded to work on both self AND covid.

 

I'm sorry, what?

 

Core. I meant Core. Apparently, I'm just assigning keywords to global pandemics without realizing it.

[Captain Coolpants]

I wonder if this means less people will put hammers on their HQs? Including GMNDK?

[Ichar]

In the Warhammer Community article where this change was announced, it referred to “shiny grey” and “spikey” marines getting the wound increase when their Codex release happens. Isn’t this going to put GK (and Chaos) in the boat of being even more underpowered than Codex marines? Or will the increase in points help make up the difference? Do you think we will remain competitive without this change (at least until our Codex drops... sometime)? Just looking for thoughts and opinions. Thanks! Edited September 30, 2020 by Ichar

[Lukoi]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but how would increasing the wounds of termites and CSM hurt you (assuming the points costs dont increase, or dont increase dramatically)?

[Corvus Fortis]

+20% pts for double the wound is 100% worth it. But how should this affect our competitiveness? We are the same, marines are changed. 

[Llagos_Tyrant]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but how would increasing the wounds of termites and CSM hurt you (assuming the points costs dont increase, or dont increase dramatically)?

 

I think the question being asked is how bad can we anticipate the interim period will be, during which Codex: Space Marines gain their wound increases and points updates and Grey Knights (and others, such as CSM/TSons) are waiting for their corresponding increase to wounds and points, for those gamers whose army hasn't been updated?

 

I think it's a fair question. The points increases that go with the wound increases are not insignificant, but I think it will be a painful transition while GK and others wait. Yes, C:SM will be at a higher cost, but their models are more resilient than your own (or my own, for Chaos) - meaning for the same amount of wounds you deal to them, they'll be more likely to have more guns on the table than if you had taken the wounds, and they'll be better able to hold objectives. It's not clear how the points increases for firstborn marines will balance or be offset by points changes in the rest of the codex - and that could be what really makes or breaks the transition.

 

Points increases for firstborn marines offset by points decreases on some key vehicles or other units could well build C:SM lists that perform very well against the power armour armies waiting for their codex.

[Ichar]

 

 

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but how would increasing the wounds of termites and CSM hurt you (assuming the points costs dont increase, or dont increase dramatically)?

I think the question being asked is how bad can we anticipate the interim period will be, during which Codex: Space Marines gain their wound increases and points updates and Grey Knights (and others, such as CSM/TSons) are waiting for their corresponding increase to wounds and points, for those gamers whose army hasn't been updated?

 

I think it's a fair question. The points increases that go with the wound increases are not insignificant, but I think it will be a painful transition while GK and others wait. Yes, C:SM will be at a higher cost, but their models are more resilient than your own (or my own, for Chaos) - meaning for the same amount of wounds you deal to them, they'll be more likely to have more guns on the table than if you had taken the wounds, and they'll be better able to hold objectives. It's not clear how the points increases for firstborn marines will balance or be offset by points changes in the rest of the codex - and that could be what really makes or breaks the transition.

 

Points increases for firstborn marines offset by points decreases on some key vehicles or other units could well build C:SM lists that perform very well against the power armour armies waiting for their codex.

Thank you for saying what I obviously failed to say. You are right on the mark with what I was trying to ask.

[Captain Coolpants]

I think this depends. In close combat with our nemesis weapons, it almost makes no difference that they get an extra wound, because we average 2 damage anyways. But small arms fire, that's huge.

 

 

As discussed before, other armies with loads of 2+ damage weapons will almost be unaffected, and will love that they kill Marines just as easily and they did before, but now the marines will have 20% less models.

 

So the extra wounds as a whole for the game, nerfs Marines a tad because of the outright ridiculous amount of multi-damage weapons out there. Which is a good thing!

 

But for us particularly. Its going to be painful. Very painful. As I said before, our only reliable multi damage weapons are our close combat ones. And any marine player with half a brain cell will know to just stay away and shoot us whenever possible.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Icosiel]

I'm hoping that they'll have an errata accompanying the Space Marines Codex that gives our shiny boys more wounds. Who knows, though.

[Skywrath]

I think the better question we should be asking ourselves is, not if, but when. With the new codex being available to SM chapters from next week (or this week, depending on preview), we have got absolutely nothing in terms of when OUR codex will be arriving. In that time we will still be stuck with 1W strikes etc. 

[Captain Coolpants]

So absolutely confirmed that regular thunder hammers are definitely flat 3 damage and now just -2AP.

 

Of course, we may get different rules for nemesis weapons.

 

But what do you think?

Edited October 3, 2020 by Captain Coolpants