Possible Origins of the Soul Drinkers: Dorn's dirty secret

[Lord_Caerolion]

The thing that surprises me most, actually, is that there hasn't been more discussion about this short story. I never remember reading anything about it, which is surprising given the revelations in it.

[Boldthreat]

You know I feel the same. Honestly I had no clue this existed until this thread popped up and then I had to go devour that information. I mean I remember it being conjecture that the Ultramarines were so big because of this reason, which was said by bantering traitors.

 

This is confirmation that not only is that true, but it’s true of the Fists as well... and it was an option offered by Dorn and Guilliman! And they even agreed to wiping themselves! It was their idea! I’m actually shocked. The compassion here by Dorn is telling, I feel it’s expected by Guilliman... as he is more “human”... though that’s my own interpretation.

 

But it also tells you more about Dorn. The entire Heresy is bending over backwards to show you the reader that Dorn is at the center of where the Imperium is now. He will mind wipe everyone to hide the truth. He will hide things and guard it. He will kill people that know to much, regardless of their innocence.

 

If Dorn doesn’t die on the Sword of Sacrilege... he would be at home in the Inquisition. Hell hes its father. If he comes out, my bet it’s from there. Pissed off cause Guilliman is trying to bring hope and knowledge when Dorn only believes in blind faith and secrets. Both want to fight for the Imperium, but in completely different ways.

[Lord_Caerolion]

I just find it strange, given that AD-B has come out numerous times in the past to say that his mention by the Word Bearers that the Ultramarines absorbed some of the Missing Legions was nothing but the Word Bearers being bitter, and that there was no truth to it.

[Spinsanity]

Alright, something just came to mind regarding the whole “yeah but even Dorn and Guillliman didn’t know who were ‘transfers’ when the Legions were split” issue. What if the “issues” just resolved themselves on their own over time? Let’s assume the Soul Drinkers received more II-Legion than VII, what if over time over generations the VII geneseed was basically “rejected” out of the genepool? Maybe mixing organs coming from different geneseed would result in fatal organ rejection which means that over time all the VII Legion genetic material in their stores has been lost and all that remains is II Legion?

[Medjugorje]

Soul Drinkers were obviously loyalist alpha legion. They got the Spear of Dorn.

When did Dorn have a spear?

The one he took from alpharius.

boom

[Medjugorje]

but honestly. Its proven wrong (that Sigismund is from another legion) because it is said that the other 2 legions were destroyed/absorbed in the great crusade.

 

Sigismund is from Terra before they found their primarchs ( and it was the idea from Rogal Dorn himself to take the old legion into his sons) AND the genetic fails of the Imperial Fists are the same as of their Black Templar brothers.

In addition the Imperial Fists are not just known for their Defensiv strategy - they are known for many things like dueling, make great art (modeling iconographies and some stuff)... and the Templar Brethren were founded very early by the IF.

[Lord_Caerolion]

That does raise a good point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the geneseed issues of the Fists were present even during the Crusade, correct? If so, it doesn't make much sense to add missing Legion members to the members of a Legion who have known, and easily noticeable, geneseed deficiencies.

[Moonreaper666]

That does raise a good point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the geneseed issues of the Fists were present even during the Crusade, correct? If so, it doesn't make much sense to add missing Legion members to the members of a Legion who have known, and easily noticeable, geneseed deficiencies.

Most restrictions and oversights on geneseed was made after the Heresy. It is why present-day Chapters can't make as many geneseed and recruits as the old Legions did.

 

Dorn and Malcador probably ordered the Lost geneseed to be modified to have the same defects but not the same DNA. The Soul Drinkers did not know the truth until 10k years later

 

What are the defects of IF geneseed beside the inability to spit acid

[Lord_Caerolion]

They lack the Betchers Gland (acid saliva) and the Sus-An Membrane (suspended animation).

 

I've not seen anything about when the Imperial Fists deterioration came into being, I'd thought it was always present. We know the Raven Guards came about as a combination of "always there" (skin colour), and through the hot-housing Corax did after Istvaan. Space Wolves/Salamanders was there from the beginning, as was Blood Angels (well, except the Black Rage). Ultras, Scars, Hands and DAngels all have no consistent geneseed anomalies, being largely stable (although some promote certain mental traits within implantees, such as the paranoia of the Dark Angels, and the body dysmorphia of the Iron Hands).

 

After all, if it was something that came about after the Heresy, it would be limited to one particular Chapter, given they're all independent after the Second Founding, so the practices of one Chapter won't affect another. Therefore, the bad practices of the Imperial Fists Chapter wouldn't affect the Crimson Fists or Black Templars, yet we know both of them have the same geneseed deficiencies. The only way this could be the case is if the degradation existed beforehand, and was wide-spread enough to comprise a majority of each of the members of the newly-founded Chapters.

 

It does raise an interesting point, though. It would theoretically be possible to just not implant the Betchers Gland and Sus-An Membrane in the new Marines created from Lost Legion geneseed, which would create a similar end result, assuming the Imperial Fists truly lack the organs entirely and that they're not just non-functional. However, this would require standing orders to not harvest those organs from matured geneseed from the Lost Legion members, and discretely dispose of them.

 

Given the room for error this creates (Apothecaries finding zygotes present that really shouldn't be there, etc), the only way this could work is if there wasn't a "one and done" memory wipe performed by Malcador, but a repeated, ongoing process of wiping every time someone finds something they shouldn't.

 

Personally, I'm just head-canoning that this never happened.

[Boldthreat]

As of the War of the Beast, they still had the Sus An Membrane. I cannot remember the Bletchers Gland being mentioned. But I don’t remember it being an issue either.

 

Before this revelation I would have argued that Dorn had them removed as a form of punishment for their failure. But oh well lol.

 

The thing that is cool is we don’t know who could be of foreign genetic lineage. I would say those from Inwit are more than likely of Dorns heritage. I would argue that Sigismund is a prime candidate... as when compared to Polux, his temperament is “off” to me. I swear there is more to the line “You are not my Son” In Crimson Fist has more to it than Dorn being pissed... even if he doesn’t know it.

 

Regarding the Genetic deficiencies.. man I just don’t know. We don’t even know what caused it. So maybe whatever caused it affected the other genetic templates too...

 

The Soul Drinkers are a shoe in for this. The White Templars as well. And I’m half and half on the Black Templars... but I’ll keep that to myself lol.

 

What I’m convinced of is that the initial Imperial Fist Chapter were pure. But post war of the beast??? Was foreign genetic material brought back in. I think Fists Exemplars were for sure Dorn as well. Though if someone were in the know, maybe lines were kept together in the 4th Founding.

 

It’s convoluted as all hell, and somewhat annoying sure. But it’s fun. If they don’t have Bolter Drill... they are imposters... at least that’s my theory lol.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Given the... *ahem* "issues" with War of the Beast, I personally tend to ignore that series almost entirely.

 

In regards to Sigismund, I more see him and Polux as the polar opposite sides of Dorn. While Dorn was constrained, he was still a fanatic and a crusader, he just held himself back from displaying it. When Dorn wants to be, he's just like Sigismund. Just look at his approach to the Iron Cage, pretty much everything after the Siege, really.

[MegaVolt87]

I doubt the missing legions have anything to do with it honestly. Its more likely initial traitor legion forces who remained loyal during HH who eventually degenerated later on etc. Plenty of stuff like Doom Eagles likely being EC, Silver Skulls IW's etc. Dark founding is mainly gene seed splicing/ possible traitor gene seed. Even if RG and Dorn were mind wiped, they would have subconsciously separated the lost legion members into separate formations. Robute and Corax for instance talking about certain elements they keep isolated in their legions, most likely didn't survive the scouring to be split up into chapters for Dorn and Robute. So, lost legions surviving the scouring is very low, unless Cawl is using the two lost legions to make primaris chapters. 

 

Off topic- dark founding chapters getting a solid primogenator chapter is annoying, like the death spectres are hard locked now as a RG successor, when before they were unknown dark founding- could be RG, DG, NL's but nope all mystery gone. BORING. Just waiting for Black Dragons as confirmed Salamander successors hard locked in lore.   

Edited June 17, 2020 by MegaVolt87

[Bjorn Firewalker]

As of the War of the Beast, they still had the Sus An Membrane.

In which book did an Imperial Fist enter suspended animation? Do you think the author made a mistake, or...?

I cannot remember the Bletchers Gland being mentioned. But I don’t remember it being an issue either...

 

Regarding the Genetic deficiencies.. man I just don’t know. We don’t even know what caused it. So maybe whatever caused it affected the other genetic templates too...

 

What I’m convinced of is that the initial Imperial Fist Chapter were pure. But post war of the beast??? Was foreign genetic material brought back in. I think Fists Exemplars were for sure Dorn as well.

It's possible the Imperial Fists and their successors' Chapter Masters resorted to salvaging gene-seed from... questionable sources... making the next generation of Imperial Fists and their successors' gene-seed chimeric, and the resulting genetic incompatibility causing their Sus-an Membrane and Betcher's Gland to fail.

[Boldthreat]

It’s been a while, but wasn’t Slaughter in suspended animation post the battle that wiped out all of the Imperial Fists? If I recall correctly he was. But it has been forever since I read that series. But it was in the initial books.

[Moonreaper666]

It’s been a while, but wasn’t Slaughter in suspended animation post the battle that wiped out all of the Imperial Fists? If I recall correctly he was. But it has been forever since I read that series. But it was in the initial books.

Yes, he was killed later ending the original IF Chapter. The other Chapters donated some of their Marines to remake the IF without telling the public

 

In the 41st Millenium, I think in the Storm of Iron novel, an Iron Warrior comments that the present day Fists fight differently than their Heresy predecessors

 

Geneseed regulations were not put in until after the Heresy. Plenty of time to modify Lost geneseed to act like Dorn's geneseed and falsify records

 

Unfortunately for the Imperium, the truth always come out Soul Drinkers case example

[Lord_Caerolion]

But what I'm saying is that you'd have to change the geneseed in the progenoid glands of every Lost Legion members, otherwise they'll be extracted containing zygotes for organs they shouldn't have.

[Boldthreat]

But what I'm saying is that you'd have to change the geneseed in the progenoid glands of every Lost Legion members, otherwise they'll be extracted containing zygotes for organs they shouldn't have.

Very true. But how daunting of a task would this be? Do you think a Chapters apothecaries could do this? I do. I think. Is this even practical? Man this opens a can of worms. Not so much for the Ultramarines... as they had all their organs anyway.

 

But moving forward... I don’t think it’s an issue in the post Great Rift setting. All the primaris geneseed would be pure Dorn goodness. I suspect though this is how/when the White Templar’s discovered that their daddy isn’t their daddy. Unfortunately the Soul Drinkers aren’t around to add to this.

 

This makes me want a novel that specifically explores this idea. From a White Templar’s perspective or something closer to the Heresy.

[MegaVolt87]

Are there any discrepancies between BT primaris and OG marines like the white templars? Or are they a unique case? Also sons of the phoenix as Dorn's line ?  Good one Cawl lol. 

[Askari]

 

It’s been a while, but wasn’t Slaughter in suspended animation post the battle that wiped out all of the Imperial Fists? If I recall correctly he was. But it has been forever since I read that series. But it was in the initial books.

Yes, he was killed later ending the original IF Chapter. The other Chapters donated some of their Marines to remake the IF without telling the public

 

In the 41st Millenium, I think in the Storm of Iron novel, an Iron Warrior comments that the present day Fists fight differently than their Heresy predecessors

 

Geneseed regulations were not put in until after the Heresy. Plenty of time to modify Lost geneseed to act like Dorn's geneseed and falsify records

 

Unfortunately for the Imperium, the truth always come out Soul Drinkers case example

 

But the thing is, NO ONE KNEW that the lost legions were absorbed. I will also point out that the short story doesn't state that the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists absorbed all of the emnants of the lost legions, just that Dorn and Guilliman argued for their preservation and absorption into other legions. It is fully possible that they were scattered amongst other legions and that this would explain much of the difference between many "Terran" legionaries and the rest of their legion. 

 

Sigismund was definitely an Imperial Fists though. There is no reason to belive that the "You are not my son" was menat as anything other than a normal disowning of a wayward son and I doubt the idea that the lost legions were absorbed had even been considered by the writers at the time. Sigismund also doesn't have an atypical temperament for an Imperial Fist. He is stalwart and has a restrained fury. All of his emotions are hidden and bound up by duty and a stoic facade. This is explored in Praetorian. Sigismund and Dorn both undergo a personality after the events of the Heresy and become zealous avenging crusaders once everything they originally fought for falls around them. Sigismund is very much a miniature version of his primarch.

[Boldthreat]

 

 

 

It’s been a while, but wasn’t Slaughter in suspended animation post the battle that wiped out all of the Imperial Fists? If I recall correctly he was. But it has been forever since I read that series. But it was in the initial books.

Yes, he was killed later ending the original IF Chapter. The other Chapters donated some of their Marines to remake the IF without telling the public

 

In the 41st Millenium, I think in the Storm of Iron novel, an Iron Warrior comments that the present day Fists fight differently than their Heresy predecessors

 

Geneseed regulations were not put in until after the Heresy. Plenty of time to modify Lost geneseed to act like Dorn's geneseed and falsify records

 

Unfortunately for the Imperium, the truth always come out Soul Drinkers case example

But the thing is, NO ONE KNEW that the lost legions were absorbed. I will also point out that the short story doesn't state that the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists absorbed all of the emnants of the lost legions, just that Dorn and Guilliman argued for their preservation and absorption into other legions. It is fully possible that they were scattered amongst other legions and that this would explain much of the difference between many "Terran" legionaries and the rest of their legion.

 

Sigismund was definitely an Imperial Fists though. There is no reason to belive that the "You are not my son" was menat as anything other than a normal disowning of a wayward son and I doubt the idea that the lost legions were absorbed had even been considered by the writers at the time. Sigismund also doesn't have an atypical temperament for an Imperial Fist. He is stalwart and has a restrained fury. All of his emotions are hidden and bound up by duty and a stoic facade. This is explored in Praetorian. Sigismund and Dorn both undergo a personality after the events of the Heresy and become zealous avenging crusaders once everything they originally fought for falls around them. Sigismund is very much a miniature version of his primarch.

See I disagree. Not that you don’t make a point. I would argue this has been developing for awhile... if it’s a thing. It COULD be nothing. It COULD be something.

 

What this does more than anything, is open the door to the possibility. Sigismund could be a true Imperial Fist... until someone comes along and decides to shake things up. Or this is never mentioned again. It can go either way, and that’s exciting. What I brought up in Crimson Fist could be nothing.. or it could be a ominous sentence that means more than Dorn or Sigismund understand. Which I actually like better.

 

And while I cannot say no other legion accepted alien brother marines... I can’t say the opposite either. We know Guilliman and Dorn argued for it. So we can surmise at least they did accept marines... it being their idea and all. I think the Space Wolves are out, so are the Blood Angels.. due to the nature of there Geneseed. The Dark Angels have their own secrets, and I don’t see them trusting foreign entities. I can see the Raven Guard doing so. Iron Hands as well, with the rumors of Autek Morr and all... the White Scars are outsiders... so I could see them sticking to their own. Salamanders also have a unique genetic trait that I would think rule them out.

 

So potentially. But we know for sure the 7th and 13th do.

 

I’ll readily admit that this is going to come down to personal preference. Because I don’t think they take it any further than wild speculation. But it’s fun to discuss. What we don’t have, is 100 percent certainty anymore. That’s the big take away.

 

And lastly on Sigismunds temperament... see I am unsure I agree with your take. I felt Crimson Fist was clear on who was a son of Dorn and who wasn’t. Even if it’s only because of their choices and not their actual genetic heritage. Whilst you are correct that their are some parallels to Dorn and Sigismund... but I think there is room for ambiguity on this.

 

Now humor me whilst I go down this rabbit hole. Have you heard of the relationships to the twenty tarot signs and the Primarchs? It’s fascinating stuff. One of the things that sticks out to me is the relationship between the Sun and Fortune and the High Priestess. The Sun being Dorn and the other two being unknown. Read this regarding Fortune (not my work):

 

http://menducia.atspace.com/primarchs/II.html

 

Expansive, generous, fun-loving and maybe a little boisterous. While he can seem very straightforward, he is a much deeper thinker than most recognise and can occasionally startle people with a calm, deeply reasoned insight. One of the most understanding of people's need for faith.

 

An optimist, with great faith in those around him and humanity as a whole. Might be a little overly trusting in people's good nature, and overconfident not only in himself but in those around him.

 

Does not appreciate being restricted, any may have a relaxed attitude to formal rules and regulations. However, will have a keen sense of right and wrong. He understands that true order cannot be achieved through stasis and must allow some flexibility.

 

Like the Empress, Fortune will value personal relationships and attempt to draw his brothers together so they can understand their greater purpose.

 

At best, warm, generous, welcoming, good humoured, encouraging and inexplicably lucky.

 

At worst, over-confindent, too trusting, out of touch with people's real thoughts and out of control of events.

 

Startle people with a deeply reasoned insight: remember when Sigismund was debating with Abbadon in the first Horus Heresy novel... he was the only marine there who stated flatly that there would never be peace, and that there would only be war.

 

One of the most understanding of the need for faith: Hello, Black Templars... God-Emperor. Something in him had him trust the Psyker and her premonition. Leading to his decision that would see him disowned by his “Father”. He overly trusted the Witch, and it cost him his relationship with his “Father”.

 

Does not enjoy being restricted. May have a relaxed attitude to Rules and regulations. Understand true order cannot be achieved through stasis and must allow flexibility: The Black Templars do not subscribe to the Codex Astartes and never did. Also, their whole organization is ad hoc and put together as needed. Their is no official organization except for Ad Hoc fighting companies and squad groupings.

 

Values personal relationships and attempts to bring his brothers together. This is the tough one, but remember Sigismunds attitude when he was honor dueling champions from other legions? He even encorporated a World Eater tradition via chaining his weapons to himself. He wasn’t filled with hate until their ultimate betrayal and breaking of that brotherhood.

 

...

 

..

 

.

 

I’m not saying there isn’t a lot of wiggle room here. I readily admit with stuff like this you can almost justify any kind of theory. But man that’s half the fun. Alexis Polux more aligns with the Sun than Fortune. But the Sun and Fortune are very closely aligned... with the Sun being more balanced and self controlled. Or said more plainly... the Sun’s children are in the Imperial Fist dex... and Fortunes children are in the Black Templar one... I kid I kid... but one can wonder...

 

And that’s fun.

[Lord_Caerolion]

Look at Dorn's actions and behaviour during the Scouring/Iron Cage, and tell me that he's not exactly like Sigismund, just without the overt faith. Sigismund is who Dorn would have been if he hadn't constrained himself by acting as the defender. When he allowed the crusader side of his personality free reign, he is exactly like Sigismund.

 

The only difference is that Dorn understood what was required of him, and that giving in to these instincts would be counter-productive, so he clamped down on his rages. At times, they broke through, like when first meeting with Garro. The VIIth Legion were builders, but only to keep what they took, and they were indeed conquerors. As the Forge World write-up on Dorn says: "Many have remarked on the dour and emotionless disposition of both Primarch and Legion, but such an assessment misses much. Reserved, but terrifying in anger, Dorn was both cautious and calculating, and capable of pursuing an end with relentless energy. While he would rarely show emotion, when he did it was capable of shaking the ground or darkening the sun".

 

Yes, there's room for ambiguity, but Sigismund is very much an Imperial Fist in temperament.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Felix Antipodes]

If such a reshuffle of the II & XI legions took place it would have been during the Great Crusade, which would open up all 18 other legions as possible destinations.

Dark Angels shouldn't be ruled out either, as they didn't become paranoid sneaks until late/post Heresy era.

[Boldthreat]

Look at Dorn's actions and behaviour during the Scouring/Iron Cage, and tell me that he's not exactly like Sigismund, just without the overt faith. Sigismund is who Dorn would have been if he hadn't constrained himself by acting as the defender. When he allowed the crusader side of his personality free reign, he is exactly like Sigismund.

 

The only difference is that Dorn understood what was required of him, and that giving in to these instincts would be counter-productive, so he clamped down on his rages. At times, they broke through, like when first meeting with Garro. The VIIth Legion were builders, but only to keep what they took, and they were indeed conquerors. As the Forge World write-up on Dorn says: "Many have remarked on the dour and emotionless disposition of both Primarch and Legion, but such an assessment misses much. Reserved, but terrifying in anger, Dorn was both cautious and calculating, and capable of pursuing an end with relentless energy. While he would rarely show emotion, when he did it was capable of shaking the ground or darkening the sun".

 

Yes, there's room for ambiguity, but Sigismund is very much an Imperial Fist in temperament.

Or... that Dorn’s mental break down causes him to lose balance, which makes him act more like his fallen brother. Which remember they are really close... the sun is just more balanced than fortune. But the Sun loses his balance, this we know.

 

Again, I’m not saying you are wrong. I’m saying this opens a door to new possibilities. If I were going to have an earth shattering secret... a bombshell in my back pocket that no one expects... this would be something I would entertain.

[Boldthreat]

If such a reshuffle of the II & XI legions took place it would have been during the Great Crusade, which would open up all 18 other legions as possible destinations.

Dark Angels shouldn't be ruled out either, as they didn't become paranoid sneaks until late/post Heresy era.

I don’t think so. The word bearers obviously didn’t believe that. And time has proven that exchange to be correct. They specifically singled out the Ultramarines as accepting foreign marines, and claiming it’s why they were so big. The implication here is it was not something everyone did.

 

I’m not saying you are wrong, because 40k can always go another direction due to ambiguity. All I’m saying is we know for sure, the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists did this.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I've changed the wording of the title from "True Origins..." to "Possible Origins..." because this is clearly a line of speculation rather than an established fact.