Possible Origins of the Soul Drinkers: Dorn's dirty secret

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Look at Dorn's actions and behaviour during the Scouring/Iron Cage, and tell me that he's not exactly like Sigismund, just without the overt faith. Sigismund is who Dorn would have been if he hadn't constrained himself by acting as the defender. When he allowed the crusader side of his personality free reign, he is exactly like Sigismund.

 

The only difference is that Dorn understood what was required of him, and that giving in to these instincts would be counter-productive, so he clamped down on his rages. At times, they broke through, like when first meeting with Garro. The VIIth Legion were builders, but only to keep what they took, and they were indeed conquerors. As the Forge World write-up on Dorn says: "Many have remarked on the dour and emotionless disposition of both Primarch and Legion, but such an assessment misses much. Reserved, but terrifying in anger, Dorn was both cautious and calculating, and capable of pursuing an end with relentless energy. While he would rarely show emotion, when he did it was capable of shaking the ground or darkening the sun".

 

Yes, there's room for ambiguity, but Sigismund is very much an Imperial Fist in temperament.

Or... that Dorn’s mental break down causes him to lose balance, which makes him act more like his fallen brother. Which remember they are really close... the sun is just more balanced than fortune. But the Sun loses his balance, this we know.

 

Again, I’m not saying you are wrong. I’m saying this opens a door to new possibilities. If I were going to have an earth shattering secret... a bombshell in my back pocket that no one expects... this would be something I would entertain.

Except as the Forge World write-up shows, Down was always like that, he just hid it. The Imperial Fists were always a combination of implacable stone-hearted defenders, and zealous crusaders. It’s literally how the Legion got its name.

[Boldthreat]

 

 

Look at Dorn's actions and behaviour during the Scouring/Iron Cage, and tell me that he's not exactly like Sigismund, just without the overt faith. Sigismund is who Dorn would have been if he hadn't constrained himself by acting as the defender. When he allowed the crusader side of his personality free reign, he is exactly like Sigismund.

 

The only difference is that Dorn understood what was required of him, and that giving in to these instincts would be counter-productive, so he clamped down on his rages. At times, they broke through, like when first meeting with Garro. The VIIth Legion were builders, but only to keep what they took, and they were indeed conquerors. As the Forge World write-up on Dorn says: "Many have remarked on the dour and emotionless disposition of both Primarch and Legion, but such an assessment misses much. Reserved, but terrifying in anger, Dorn was both cautious and calculating, and capable of pursuing an end with relentless energy. While he would rarely show emotion, when he did it was capable of shaking the ground or darkening the sun".

 

Yes, there's room for ambiguity, but Sigismund is very much an Imperial Fist in temperament.

Or... that Dorn’s mental break down causes him to lose balance, which makes him act more like his fallen brother. Which remember they are really close... the sun is just more balanced than fortune. But the Sun loses his balance, this we know.

 

Again, I’m not saying you are wrong. I’m saying this opens a door to new possibilities. If I were going to have an earth shattering secret... a bombshell in my back pocket that no one expects... this would be something I would entertain.

Except as the Forge World write-up shows, Down was always like that, he just hid it. The Imperial Fists were always a combination of implacable stone-hearted defenders, and zealous crusaders. It’s literally how the Legion got its name.

Let me be clear: I agree with everything you are saying. If it were not for this scandalous revelation I wouldn’t even be entertaining this conspiracy theory. I’m just connecting dots. I doubt we will ever see this further explored. It’s a nugget meant to introduce doubt where there was none before. And I enjoy that.

 

Let’s take another approach, as I love this discussion. Would Sigismund being a adopted son detract from his story? Would the Black Templars being of a secret and forgotten heritage detract from them? Would it detract from the connection that exists between the Templars and the Fists? I don’t think so... in fact I think it adds to all of it.

 

Make no mistake, a younger me would absolutely hate this idea. I’m particularly biased in favor of everything 7th Legion... and a younger me may have seen this as a slight against my favorite Legion... as if this revaluation would some joe take away some of the awesomeness of my favorite lineage of Space Marines.

 

But I’m older now. And not only that... I have 5 children. 2 of which are boys I adopted when I remarried. They call me Dad. I have been in their lives since they were 1 and 3 respectfully. I claim these boys as if they were mine and I have raised them exactly as I raised my legitimate children. I am proud of these young men and would die for them in a heartbeat. This doesn’t take away from Dorn’s legacy... it actually makes it... human. I think it even enhances Dorn’s legacy... and I don’t think it cheapens the brotherhood between these genetic lines. I would still say these warriors, Dorn’s blood or not, contribute to the character and awesomeness of the 7th Legion.

 

What I like about this is it slots in nicely with the Arc I think Dorn is going to take post his mental break. Buckle up, I’m going to connect everything with wild speculation. It’s not fact, but it’s what I think could happen:

 

Let’s assume the Primarch and 20 tarot signs is legitimate. Let’s also assume that one of the missing is indeed Fortune, and Dorn is indeed the Sun.

 

They are close in temperament and character. One is more tied to faith... but he is more rash and open with his emotions. The other is more balanced... if even just on the surface.

 

Now what’s been officially stated is what the two lost Primarchs did would have threatened completely the ideals of the Great Crusade. Considering the shaky relationships with the other Primarchs and their father... it’s not something like Angron. My theory is it’s religious freedom, or at least for one of them. Maybe he had a belief in a God or Gods and ultimately could not continue the Crusade in stamping out religion.

 

So Dorn loses a brother. And probably only sides with the Emperor because he is incapable of anything else. So he advocates the transfer of his fallen brothers sons into his legion... and offers to mind wipe everyone involved... including himself to protect the Imperium moving forward.

 

Fast forward to the end of the Heresy. The whole ordeal is slowly breaking Dorn down... and he continues this road of lies, secrets and murder to protect his fathers realm. And he stumbles on the dead corpses of his Father and two brothers. He breaks. The thing that balanced him and kept his emotions in check is now destroyed. He’s just like his brother Fortune, except there is no faith in anything. It’s just rage and hate unchecked.

 

Then he has his religious conversion in the Pain Glove, when he is visited by his God. Now he is born again hard... but he’s not the old Dorn. No, he’s exactly like his Brother was... the one that was executed for his faith. But Dorn goes further. He isn’t capable of implementing religious freedom or a belief in any other god but his. So he commits the ultimate sin against his father, he turns his Father into a God, in his quest to keep humanity together.

 

The Dorn pre Heresy is the Crusader of the Imperial Truth. The Dorn post the Iron Cage is it’s killer. He’s the father of the Imperial Creed and everything the Imperium is now.

 

Dorn ultimately fulfills what the Emperor had two sons executed for. The acceptance of false gods and the rejection of the Imperial Truth.

 

Or something like that. But again... everything we have been told is a lie.

[Boldthreat]

And another point... what if this is similarly tied directly to the Black Templars and the lack of Librarians? As well as the particular faith based acts.

 

Emperors Champions aren’t unique to the Templars or the Fists... but the Templars produce more than any other chapter, including other sons of Dorn. As well as getting some weird benefits in regards to faith.

 

And regarding Librarians... initially the fluff was the Templars didn’t trust them or use them. That was changed to they used to have Librarians, but lost that ability for some reason. What if the reason is that the Black Templars were initially mixed with 2 genetic lines... and over time due to losses and what have you, the lost Brothers geneseed becomes prevalent and dominate. The side effect is the lost brothers geneseed doesn’t work with psykers?

 

Obviously I’m spitballing. But these are things that could be worked into canon rather easily.

[MegaVolt87]

So, if Dorn had/has a complete breakdown he becomes a combination of cold battle accountant like Perty and MUH IMPERIUM ZEAL like pre- fall Lorgar? That sound pretty awesome to me, would suck to be on the receiving end of that. Might have won the Iron Cage then.  

[Lord_Caerolion]

That was Dorn during the Iron Cage. You really think the ultra-pragmatic defender of the Siege of Terra would have looked at the obvious trap of the Iron Cage, and responded "don't care, DORN SMASH"?

 

Boldthreat, I do agree that it's an interesting theory, I just find it hard to ignore the fact that this has always been part of Dorn's personality. Dorn was always one of the most zealous Primarchs, dedicating himself wholly to the Great Crusade. I just can't see any disconnect between Dorn or Sigismund, even before the Siege.

[Spinsanity]

Except as the Forge World write-up shows, Down was always like that, he just hid it. The Imperial Fists were always a combination of implacable stone-hearted defenders, and zealous crusaders. It’s literally how the Legion got its name.

Has it been established with confidence already who AK is/was, and when exactly he wrote the books? Considering that just like all the others, HH2: Massacre is an in-universe retelling, the fact that Dorn is described one way can be just as easily attributed to hear-say as anything.

[Boldthreat]

That was Dorn during the Iron Cage. You really think the ultra-pragmatic defender of the Siege of Terra would have looked at the obvious trap of the Iron Cage, and responded "don't care, DORN SMASH"?

 

Boldthreat, I do agree that it's an interesting theory, I just find it hard to ignore the fact that this has always been part of Dorn's personality. Dorn was always one of the most zealous Primarchs, dedicating himself wholly to the Great Crusade. I just can't see any disconnect between Dorn or Sigismund, even before the Siege.

Yes, I do believe that is what Dorn does. The Index Astartes article is clear... Dorn post the battle of Terra painted his armor black and went on a path of vengeance... smashing traitor fortress after traitor fortress and with little regard to the political changes being enacted by his brother. He didn’t care. Hate and vengeance his only concern.

 

There are only two reasons Dorn rushed into the Iron Cage. 1) over confidence and a desire to quickly kill the Iron Warriors. 2). He just had a religious experience in the Pain Glove... and purposefully sent his sons into a meat grinder to absolve their sin of failing to protect his Father, or whittle them down so much that they wouldn’t have to split into different chapters. Neither option is pragmatic. Neither option harkens back to the balanced and compromised son who believed in the Imperial Truth and the Emperors ideals than any other Primarch.

 

In fact the Foreworld material is clear from the very beginning... no one knew what the cost would be on this Fists... who sacrificed so much... this is stated ominously. Revelations are coming. We do not go from enlightened ideals to Space Catholicism because of Lorgars words. Dorn willingly removes himself from the public sphere (through death or disappearance) specifically because he was being deified by humanity as one of the last of the Emperors sons. He wouldn’t have done this if the Emperor was already being worshiped. He wasn’t. Dorn did this specifically to put worship on his Father... the God he now communicates with in the Pain Glove. Pragmatic? No. Guilliman believed Dorn came to his senses... he could not fathom the complete shift in ideology that Dorn’s mental breakdown produced.

 

And lastly I don’t blame you for that position. This is a relatively new development and I’m not even convinced it’s the direction they take. My only position is that IF Sigismund is of another genetic line (which is now possible), and there are some things that we know that separate the Templars from their more balanced brother chapters, and IF Dorn and this brother Primarch were similar in temperament and character... absence this other beings faith and less balanced nature... that Dorn’s mental breakdown could be the reason that he and Sigismund seem to have a genetic connection.

 

I’m saying I believe Dorn and this other Primarch are similar in temperament. Hell, I believe Dorn deep down could absolutely be just like his brother... he just initially had a better control of his own mind... he was balanced. His breakdown removes that balance. Making him exactly like the son the Emperor had killed because of his zeal and faith... something 100 percent at odds with the emperors Imperial Truth.

 

And we have to also acknowledge that these legionnaires would absolutely be influenced by Rogal Dorn... remember they believe they are his legitimate children as well. Let’s not lose sight of the fact that Sigismunds temperament could be the result of nature AND nurture.

 

I’m just spitballing. But I do believe these little juicy bits are calculated. I don’t believe the decisions to write these things happen in a vacuum and without in depth discussions from those directly involved in these implications... even if we never see the truth. I just think there is a realistic and legitimate connection that could do this. I’m good with it either way. But I readily admit I like stuff like this. I like that the Imperial Fists were killed to a man and that it was covered up. I like grim dark stuff and I like conspiracies. But full disclosure... I’m wrong all the time... ask my ex wives lol