Adapt or Die

[sturguard]

Hey folks,

 

Just want some opinions here as I am pretty torn as to what to do. The arrival of 9th doesn't bother me, I've gone through every edition with my space wolves. However, editions 3-7 were different. Rules changed, models really didn't. It's pretty clear now (if it hasn't been before) that the people who cried "the sky is falling" weren't entirely wrong. The incoming models are a clear indication that really all models (that will be permanent) are going to be new models. The whole marine line is going to be replaced. We got new troops, then new transports and dreads, now you are seeing new bikes, potentially new devs, etc. You get the idea. Im not a fan of primaris- thats my personal choice. I bought a few units, but honestly, they look dumb sprinkled in with traditional units. And honestly, lets say I did go the route of Primaris, that would just mean that more and more of my army is going to sit on the shelf. What the heck would I want to do that for? Ive spent probably thousands of hours on my army and really haven't had the benefit of playing much. Now that I'm in my 50's, my kids are going to college, my job requirements are scaling back, Ill actually have time to play and Im lucky enough to have a store down the road that looks like its going to survive covid. So, I want to play with my space wolves.

 

So the options seem to be- retire my space wolves to Horus Heresy.

Nope that wont work, first, I have an exclusive Horus Heresy army, my 1k Sons. I'd like to play them as they are, also my space wolves dont have enough units that are similar to the horus heresy list. I'd have to house rule everything and it would be too messy.

 

Add Primaris to my army only to see more and more of my actual space wolf units hit the closet shelf. That really isn't an option I like either. I'm too old for the painting phase. My hands shake, my eyes are awful and the only time I can do any model work is on days where the sun is shining into my office and I have the lights on (and use my magnifying light). Plus as I have stated, the units look awful together, they really weren't made to go hand in hand, we know that, they were made to replace.

 

Convert my arny as new units arrive to modify it enough that it could pass for a current army. So this is something I have thought of. I could easily order some long barreled bolters from Shapeways and remove the current bolters from my grey hunters (heck I could even get a grenade launcher from Shapeways) and wala, Intercessors. Obviously this will work, but it wont work for many other units. My rhinos are never going to look like Impulsors. When they replace terminators, most likely I can't change those. I am lucky that I have alot of bikes, maybe the new bikes will be good, that would be an easy stand in. 

 

Now obviously I think I can get away with what I have for at least another two years. I am perfectly fine using rhinos and grey hunters over intercessors, especially just using 1 battlion, there is enough of a savings that I dont feel the battlefield role of 3 units of intercessors vs grey hunters is going to change the outcome. 

 

The final option would be to simply stay in put in 7th/8th edition and find some other like minded folks to play with, or at least folks that may play the current edition plus have their older stuff too.

 

Currently, I have 30k 1K Sons, 40k SW, and 40k Eldar. I had been thinking about selling my eldar, but last night upon further reflection, maybe they are the safe army to keep. GW could replace the SM line because they are the best selling army in their lineup. I don't know that it would be cost efficient to try that with eldar, or orks etc.  And if they did add more stuff, most likely it wouldnt interfere with the guardians I have. Where I would have old guardians and new guardians. And frankly, my eldar aren't painted, and really I have no plans on painting them anytime soon, so anything new that comes along I can simply add in with no issues. 

 

Or is there a better army to do this with? I could sell the army and go Ork, or Necron, or something else. Realistically how much longer am I going to play, 9-10 years? You dont see many 70 year olds playing. 

 

So any thoughts on what to do with the SW? They are my pride and joy, over anything I have.

 

Thanks!

[Metzombie]

Or you could just keep playing your Space Wolves as they are. I still can not see any indication for firstborn marines to vanish in the near futur or ever.

[Captain Antargo]

I am also an OG SM fan, never have been a fan Primaris, I've moved onto GK as they aren't Primaris and have gotten some pretty good buffs recently, (I originally did BA)

[NightHowler]

I’ve been exclusively space wolves since 4th edition. No soup. No other armies. Just old school space wolves. And I also hate the way GW introduced Primaris and for that reason I haven’t bought any.

 

The irony is that if GW had just started scaling up the models, or called them tru-scale marines, or whatever, they would most likely have sold just as many models (maybe more) and they wouldn’t have alienated players like me. But that ship has clearly sailed.

 

So what to do about it (and Sturguard I really hope this not only answers your question but helps you) I say weather the storm for now. Keep playing with the army you have for as long as you can. Never, and I mean absolutely never throw out or sell off your current army. And when GW finally gets around to making space wolf specific primaris marines, if they’re cool, buy them. As to the inability to paint them, hire someone to pro paint them - with a little google search it’s easier than ever to find someone willing to do a phenomenal job painting your marines in a style you like. If it’s cost prohibitive, save up for it. Just make sure you have them paint up a test model for you to approve before they do the whole army. And when the last of the first born marines are “legended” build a saga-worthy glass case with great lighting to display them so your grandkids will have something they’re not allowed to touch and you can make them sit there and fidget while you tell them painfully long and incredibly boring old-man stories about when GW first started and how much better things were in the “good old days”.

 

I give you this advice because this is the painful path I’ve decided to walk. But painful as it may be to watch something you loved the way it was change, I think it will definitely be more rewarding than lying down and giving up. I tell you this because it’s a question I have grappled with ever since Primaris came out. Whatever you decide, I hope you enjoy your decision.

[Debauchery101]

Unless you're an ultra competitive player then I suggest just keep playing. If i had more time to play myself I would do campaigns. Which does seem to be something they are making rules for in 9th as well.

[Dark Shepherd]

Or you could just keep playing your Space Wolves as they are. I still can not see any indication for firstborn marines to vanish in the near futur or ever.

It does say in the FAQ flyer that firstborn are going nowhere. I cant see them retiring any units til 10th edition at least let alone most or even all (except maybe bikes). So for my money you have way more than two years, closer to ten IMO

 

Also just because Primaris are a thing it doesnt mean TWC etc stopped existing. And at worst units are ported over to Legends so they can still be played outside of tournaments most of the time

Edited May 24, 2020 by Dark Shepherd

[Scribe]

They would never have full on squated original marines. They learned at least some things from the comical AoS launch.

 

The point is Primaris were always intended to be exactly what people are only now it seems understanding, a full replacement line to make Marine players (the Whales of 40K) feel the need to buy an entirely new replacement army.

 

It was always going to be this way, I guess some folks just held out hope that it wasnt?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Personally I think you should just stay the course with your old wolves. I agree that new models moving forward will be primaris but I don' think GW will be in hurry to retire the old line up. The rules for psychic awakening really reinforce this (there was a ton of terminator love). I also think GW is aware of the backlash that will come with retiring that lineup if it isn't handled with grace. 

 

I would only really consider replacing them with Primaris if you start to like the new models more, or decide to get into tournament gaming (and to be honest Eldar with the exception of 5th edition, and late 8th have typically been a better tournament army anyways).

 

I also wouldn't recommend modifying your existing models, just proxy if/when the time comes. It sounds like you have a finished army that your proud of don't mess with it. I made that mistake in 7th with my firstborn. I started to rebase them, and it was a frustrating experience that wasn't worth it. It was really fortunate for me that I like primaris, and love painting them.  

 

 

 

 

 

[sturguard]

Hey guys,

Thanks so much for the responses. It helps knowing I'm not alone in this decision process. Ultimately, I don't know that there is a true answer. Scribe is right, Primaris are meant to be a full replacement for the SM line. As the years go by, more and more units will move over to retired status. Yes, some of the models will still retain some rules, but lets be honest, none of the firstborn models will ever be intended to compare with the new Primaris. Even after just a few years most folks will tell you there isnt a reason to take Grey Hunters because Intercessors are so much better. Compare the rhino and Impulsor, the thing has a 4+ invul save, rhinos gain a wound back on a 6. Again, we could go down the line unit by unit and discuss but that isn't the point of the thread.

 

As far as playing with what Ive got, that will work short term. I predict after the next round of models is released it will be harder to do that. Unfortunately the way 40k is played is part of the problem and we have been dealing with that issue forever. Over the past 30 years I have lived in places that have no community (and have been forced to go to tournaments to get games), I have been in places that have very much a power gaming community- where if you weren't up to date on units and armies you would find yourself tabled and I have lived in a community which was a mix in between. I can tell you from personal experience, people don't want to be told or asked how to play. I met a guy once, really good dude. He was a genuinely nice guy. However, he had his list (which was very competitive) and he wasn't going to scale it down. Our games were not very enjoyable, either he was tabling me, or I adjusted my list to compensate for his and I was tabling him. I tried to throw out different rules we could play with, run a narrative deal etc, but that wasn't his gig. So we stopped playing. I am not sure if folks realize that- you can't pick the guys you play against and honestly, maybe some of you are okay with it, but coming from an athletic background, I don't like to get table stomped. I don't mind losing a close game, in fact that is the kind Id like to play, but getting tabled is a waste of my time. As more and more primaris units hit the table, and more are available, and you play in a competitive gaming circle, you are going to see that happen more and more if you play with original units. That's easy, GW isnt putting any more thought into existing units, especially those they are planning on replacing with a primaris unit. Yes, terminators got a buff, that leads me to believe that Termies might be around longer than say a longfang or of course a scout. 

 

I guess Im not in a horrible place, I have a ton of termies, which are the basis for my army right now, 6-8 Thunderwolves (which I dont see being replaced anytime soon, and if in the new ruleset they can get into ruins and on second levels, they just might be good) and 2 units of wulfen (again which I dont think will be replaced soon) . Of course we dont know the rules for the next wave of primaris, for all I know, the new units will make childs play of terminators, wulfen and thunderwolves? 

 

Nighthowler- I would never sell the wolves, never. I have put my heart and soul into them for the past 20 years. They were rebased when models moved to 32mm bases, I have ripped arms off and retooled Grey Hunter squads multiple times, I have every HQ ever made and turned older models into objective markers... I still have Ragnars old 2 metal wolves in my bitz box and although I have 4 dreadnoughts, the original metal Bjorn, is still my Bjorn model when I play. 

 

So turning the conversation in a different direction, other than our Troops choices, how much of the new stuff do you really think we will need to stay competitive, given Terminators and Wulfen are "competitive" right now?  Because if its just the troops, I could take 2 squads of Grey Hunters, put the extended barrel rifles on them and call em Intercessors, then maybe get an Inpulsor or two and call it a day. Or more pointedly, what would I have to do in a tournament style scene to make my grey hunters playable as something else? I mean lets face it, people do conversions all the time, some of them look awful but they are legal.  All my models are based on resin Ancient Ruins bases, but I could paint the lip a different color  from the rest of the army, although that may look kind of silly, they are all brown around the lip, maybe I make them black?

 

Advice is always welcome.

[sturguard]

Actually let me pose this question-

 

You're a tournament player, what do I need to do or represent on a normal marine model to have him pass as Primaris intercessor. I would much rather put my time and effort into converting backwards- folks are taking primaris and converting them to space wolves, Id like to take normal marines and convert them to primaris. If one is allowed, certainly the other should be allowed as well.... or maybe Im just bringing back the squats.

[sturguard]

So what if  I took these

https://www.shapeways.com/product/6ET26QW64/10x-base-marine-snipe-rifle-hp1?optionId=65713084&li=shops

 

And clipped off the sniper barrel, or reduced it?

 

Or just putting this on a normal marine

https://www.shapeways.com/product/77LVL8TY5/10x-base-primefire-bc1?optionId=84375716&li=shops

 

and I could do some of these heads-

https://www.shapeways.com/product/8A9BV7BEH/10x-multi-runes-g-9-werewolf-helms?optionId=162943861&li=shops

 

so they would differentiate from my grey hunter models.

Edited May 24, 2020 by sturguard

[Wispy]

my decision to convert primaris to space wolves was based on the confidence that one day there would be Space Wolves specific Primaris and that the dudes i did now would just seemlessly integrate into whatever new ones came out.

 

we all sweat the difference between an intercessor vs grey hunter but the end of the day we know what a space wolf with a bolter is supposed to look like and that the differences between the two are not vast at all. we know what a space marine with a chainsword is supposed to look like too - i'm not sweating these assault intercessors at all, i'm making them blood claws! a wolf by any other name would smell as wolfy or something.

 

 

i've essentially closed the book on first born marines. i bust out those models for play all the time and they dont look out of place... but i consider that era of my hobbying over. we all move on to new projects sometime, even if they look a lot like old projects.

Edited May 24, 2020 by Wispy

[sturguard]

Understood Wispy, but Im not willing to close the book. I guess my new project would be to backward convert.

Edited May 24, 2020 by sturguard

[Wispy]

man i'd like to be supportive but i dont think throwing in nornal sized marines and calling them primaris is fair wysiswyg. you're going to confuse opponents. Edited May 24, 2020 by Wispy

[sturguard]

Wispy, ok with all the cool conversions people have put into models (showing that they are creative and intelligent) all the rules in 40k with all the supplements, units, etc- you think some original sized marines with primaris sized weapons and funky heads are really going to confuse folks? I mean realistically they could only be grey hunters or intercessors but the guns are bolt rifles so...

 

In any case, I'd prefer not to focus on what I can't do, going over to primaris is not an option for me, and as I have seen some other folks as well. So they question is, how to do we hold on?

 

MetalMammoth- bring 2 armies- you must have more arms than me because just bringing one army means Im fully loaded!

Edited May 24, 2020 by sturguard

[Iain_Stormeyes]

Actually let me pose this question-

 

You're a tournament player, what do I need to do or represent on a normal marine model to have him pass as Primaris intercessor. I would much rather put my time and effort into converting backwards- folks are taking primaris and converting them to space wolves, Id like to take normal marines and convert them to primaris. If one is allowed, certainly the other should be allowed as well.... or maybe Im just bringing back the squats.

 

I don't think you could.  They are pretty clearly different models with different heights and weapon options, and anyone at a tournament is not going to want to play against what is essentially an army of proxies.  It should be fine if you raise the profile of the GH by putting cork on the base to make them taller, but you can't do that at a tournament.

[Iain_Stormeyes]

Wispy, ok with all the cool conversions people have put into models (showing that they are creative and intelligent) all the rules in 40k with all the supplements, units, etc- you think some original sized marines with primaris sized weapons and funky heads are really going to confuse folks? I mean realistically they could only be grey hunters or intercessors but the guns are bolt rifles so...

 

In any case, I'd prefer not to focus on what I can't do, going over to primaris is not an option for me, and as I have seen some other folks as well. So they question is, how to do we hold on?

 

MetalMammoth- bring 2 armies- you must have more arms than me because just bringing one army means Im fully loaded!

 

I think you hold on by  keeping your First Born Wolves intact, but choosing another army to invest in going forward.  Eldar are good, Necrons look to be getting a sweet new line, or AdMech or Guard.  But any Marine army is going to find that it's rules favor Primaris and are written to balance around Primaris units.  GW has made it clear that this is their policy by not making any new sculpts for old marines and by having some iconic old marines become Primaris.

[Wispy]

i dunno, having been where you are at, it sounds like you're pursuing unsatisfying half measures to avoid ripping off the bandaid. Edited May 24, 2020 by Wispy

[NightHowler]

If you want to use your firstborn marines as “counts-as” Primaris, Id say it could be done for friendly games pretty easily. Just talk to your opponent before the game no modifications required. This has been a part of the game for as long as I can remember. It’s not always ideal, but at the end of the day, it’s a beer and pretzels game between friends then anything (that both parties agree to) goes. I remember a store I used to play at in Bremerton WA had a guy who used to bring an army made entirely out of Legos. I think it was supposed to be IG.

 

Tournaments are a whole different game though. And at least a few FLGS I’ve played at have a tournament-like culture because the patrons see that store as a testing ground for actual tournaments. In those situations I think it will be challenging to adequately modify your existing grey hunters to make them look 1) big enough to fill the Primaris silhouette for LOS equivalency and 2) different enough from actual grey hunters not to confuse the two. I think it’s one of the greatest tragedies I’ve ever seen in this hobby, but the day of the deodorant stick tank conversions are (as far as tournaments are concerned) dead and buried - the upside is you never see a guy dump a bin of legos on the table.

 

Sturguard, I feel your pain man. I HATE the euphemism “legend” for units GW doesn’t want you to use any more. I HATE the “new” lore and get upset that younger players seem so accepting of the changes. I HATE that my army that I so lovingly crafted, painted, and created a backstory for is on an inevitable one way track to obsolescence orchestrated by the very company that sold it to me.

 

But what I was trying to say in my original response is that I think the unfortunate truth is that if you and I want to keep playing we will need to buy these new models, accept the new lore (or find a way to write our own lore that is more palatable but still uses Primaris). I don’t think there’s any good way to keep using the old models after GW makes them *clenches jaw as I say it* “legends”.

[sturguard]

Honestly in the strictest measures, ie the tournament scene- I wont be there, so its irrelevant. All of my games will be at gaming stores or if I am lucky enough to have someone over at the house. I have tables worth of terrain I might sadly have to start ebaying. So really, it comes down to passing off my parts of my army as primaris.

 

Now honestly I want everyone to consider this. Lets say things get really good as far as my playing goes and I play maybe 10 times a year, heck we will say 12, once a month- why would I want to start another army just to keep up with the Joneses? Yes, I realize GW wants my money. Yes, they want me to hang up the SW force and sit it on the shelf but Every army I add means more models sitting on the shelf not getting used. With the amount of time, energy and money I have sunk into the SW army I have, if Im playing 12 times a year, they should hit the table 8-10 of those 12 (and my painted 1K Sons should probably mop up the rest). I need to investigate the Shapeways bolt guns and see how they would look on a standard marine, and honestly its ok if they look a bit big, heck heavy weapons are even bigger and marines dont have an issue lugging them around. 

 

I dunno Wispy, I would say you clearly aren't in my state of mind, because no matter what, I can't see adding the actual Primaris units to my army. After the one intercessors squad, that kind of did it for me.

 

I dont think GW is setting it up to be just one unit. They are going to continue the momentum that you just cant get by with just 3 units of intercessors, then youll need transports for them, then all the strategems will only be targeting Primaris units, etc etc until you really cant operate at all without them. In some ways this is a good thing, the more quickly we get to that point and you dont see any normal marine units on the table, the easier it will be to simply "count as". If there are no normal marines, is it a stretch to say my guys are intercessors? If there are no rhinos, is it so hard to say they are Impulsors? If no swiftclaw bikes, easy enough to say my bikes count as the primaris bikes. No, the more I think about it, the more GW allowing the regular marines to hang around so long is whats causing the problem and it could be planned that way- GW wants folks buying models and being All In, they dont want counts as.

 

The other thing we fight is model prejudice or peer pressure. The more folks that retire their existing armies for primaris armies (some begrudgingly) the more pressure there will be about not everyone doing the same, and rightly so. I go down to the gaming store with all my marines counting as primaris, to play Joe, who used to have a Dark Angels army, but decided to shelf them and replace with a primaris dark angels army..... do you think Joe is likely to be a bit irritated having to look at older models using the new rules or do you think he would be fine with it? Granted its probably a player by player deal, but I think human nature would be to be a bit pissed off.

Edited May 24, 2020 by sturguard

[sturguard]

Does anyone have experience with those Shapeways boltrifles?

 

And just so you guys know what we are talking about, here's the collection.

 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/85RDvR3ScCkRrm1o7

 

I can take close ups if there is anything folks want to see.

Edited May 24, 2020 by sturguard

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Definitely don't mess with the army if your hope is 12 games a year. That's a good looking painted force you should take pride in.

 

1) The people that are going to be really picky about it in causal games aren't going to be worth it in the first place.

 

2) I think you have alot longer than you think before GW pulls the plug. Primaris are a replacement but they've nailed a troop choice, one heavy support unit, and a transport. Firstborn still have a lot going for them and this won't be the wave that makes them obsolete.

[sturguard]

Jorin,

 

Its a shame already how much of the army never sees the table. I love to win, I love to compete, but not at all costs. My hopes over the years was having enough that I could change my army up every time I played. 4 speeders- whens the last time speeders were good? 2 units of scouts? 7 bikes and an attack bike- although with the new strategems my bikes are going to see the table next time I can get a game, LRC (iconic, but havent seen the table in 8th) predators (I have 2) - those are the types of losses I can take, the ebb and flow of units being good in one edition and then sucking the next.... GW wiping out 25 years of work, not going to happen. 

 

Although I have to say Shapeways Warsuit conversion kit is pretty awesome, I might have to add one of those, just because its cool looking and wont stand out in my army (at least I dont think)- are the warsuits the same size as a dread? 

Edited May 24, 2020 by sturguard

[sturguard]

Ok I dont think I need to go the Shapeways route. I actually had some spare boltguns left off the sprue from the one squad of intercessors I made up. I have alot of MKIII armor lying around from when I thought  I was going to do 30k wolves (before deciding to do 1K Sons)- anyways, I stuck a boltgun on a MKIII space wolf and honestly, it looks great to me. I cant do much tonight as its dark and I cant see, but I think I just need a head with some height and it will look fine. I also have shapeways sniper rifles I could use for Eliminators, thats the next project after the Intercessors.

 

What do you think?

https://photos.app.goo.gl/skL5mV7nhyByx82AA

 

If anyone is interested, Ill start a separate thread on my journey through all this-

[NightHowler]

I definitely agree that the rifles look great on the firstborn. You should do a size comparison when you’re done with the project.