Hypothetical GC/HH-era Loyalist Invasion of Ulthwe

[Moonreaper666]

I wonder if this would make a great scenario in Tabletop?

 

Before starting the Heresy, Horus had a 'wonderful' idea to cripple the Imperium and the Eldar in one stroke. As Warmaster, he orders specific Loyalist Legions and selected Imperial forces to attack Ulthwé, knowing this would forced the entire Eldar species to fight and cripple the Loyalist!

 

Loyalists:

 

-Bulk of the Four Loyalist Legions led by their Primarchs. Dark Angels, Salamanders, Raven Guard and Ultramarines

 

-Imperial Guard, Solar Auxilia and Adeptus Mechanicus support

 

 

Ulthwé:

 

-All Major Craftworlds and a dozen minor ones. Eldrad Ulthuan and all of the Phoenix Lords are there

 

-Eldar Corsairs, Dark Eldar, Orks and Trazyn's Necrons as reinforcements. Certain groups were bribed or mislead/lured

 

Victory Conditions:

 

-Taking or Destroying Ulthwé for the Loyalist

 

-Repluse the invasion (Don't see Lion giving up that easily so he might have to die or be severely wounded for the Dark Angels to retreat)

 

Special Conditions:

 

-Daemons will manifest in the battlefield once enough people died. The deaths of so many humans and xenos and their souls dragged into the Warp will do that

 

 

Horus doesn't care who wins as the Loyalists not only lose so much people but also time. The Eldar will make reprisal attacks which keep the Imperium distracted

 

What would it take to repulse the Loyalist attack on Ulthwé? Loyalist and Ulthwé strategy in the battle? Who would 'win'?

 

What effect would this have in the Heresy?

[Lord_Caerolion]

As I've said the last time you raised this idea, the Craftworlds at the time of the Great Crusade/Heresy were a fraction of their current strength. The Aspect Temples were barely started, and the race was still recovering from a species-wide galactic psychic genocide. Given a single Chapter invading in full-strength is enough to pose a serious risk to a modern major Craftworld in 40k, I think even one Legion invading would be absolutely more than enough to annihilate what is essentially a refugee ship. Adding in more Craftworlds doesn't particularly improve their odds.

 

There's a reason that the Craftworlders played literally no part in the Great Crusade/Heresy era (other than Eldrad making a diplomatic attempt), and that's because at that stage the Craftworld Eldar lacked the ability to have widespread influence on the wider galaxy, and were far more focused on their survival after the annihilation of their race.

 

Effect it would have on the Heresy? Absolutely nothing, at least not in any major way. The only major implication is that the Craftworlders might abandon the Craftworlds entirely to survive in the Webway instead. 

[Moonreaper666]

As I've said the last time you raised this idea, the Craftworlds at the time of the Great Crusade/Heresy were a fraction of their current strength. The Aspect Temples were barely started, and the race was still recovering from a species-wide galactic psychic genocide. Given a single Chapter invading in full-strength is enough to pose a serious risk to a modern major Craftworld in 40k, I think even one Legion invading would be absolutely more than enough to annihilate what is essentially a refugee ship. Adding in more Craftworlds doesn't particularly improve their odds.

 

There's a reason that the Craftworlders played literally no part in the Great Crusade/Heresy era (other than Eldrad making a diplomatic attempt), and that's because at that stage the Craftworld Eldar lacked the ability to have widespread influence on the wider galaxy, and were far more focused on their survival after the annihilation of their race.

 

Effect it would have on the Heresy? Absolutely nothing, at least not in any major way. The only major implication is that the Craftworlders might abandon the Craftworlds entirely to survive in the Webway instead.

Is there a reason why the non-Dark Eldar don't live in the Webway?

 

It's been centuries since the creation of the Phoenix Lords they had plenty of time to train countless aspect

 

Wouldn't the Eldar fight to the death rather than abandon Ulthwé? Bring out everything to repulse the Loyalists?

 

Couldn't the Phoenix Lords and Dark Eldar Special Characters perform Warp-teleporation-ship-boarding killing the crew and sabotaging/destroying countless ships? Assassinate the Primarchs and their subordinates?

[Lord_Caerolion]

The Dark Eldar special characters didn't really exist at the time? I think you're underestimating the impact that the Fall had on Eldar society. They didn't discover soul stones until M32 or so, so at the time of the Great Crusade, they would still have been dealing with the fact that up until now, they got reborn after death, but now Slaanesh is waiting for them.

 

It also hasn't been centuries since the creation of the Phoenix Lords, given that we know from the Asurmen and Jain Zar novels that they were the first two, and they were still learning themselves in the aftermath of the Fall. By the time the Great Crusade was fully underway, they'd probably just found all the members who would become the Phoenix Lords we know. So, they've got to go from still figuring out what they are, and developing their entire martial art and philosophical outlook, to then starting to train up new Aspect Warriors. Best case, they might have a few hundred Aspect Warriors, total. They certainly don't have "countless".

 

Non-Drukhari seem to prefer the Craftworlds because that's where they are now. Before the Fall, the Craftworlds were literally just refugee ships that abandoned the Eldar Empire with what they could take with them, nowhere near what they are now. At that point they're basically glorified cruise ships.

 

As for fighting to the death to defend Ulthwé, why would they? They're already recovering from one racial genocide, why the hell would they throw themselves into another one while still coming to terms with the outcome of the first?

 

The Craftworld Eldar goal at this point in the setting is nothing but "nurse our wounds while we try to figure out what the  just happened to our civilization, and why we're getting tortured for eternity after death". That's not the mindset that leads to "lets combine all our rag-tag forces for a fight to the death against this overwhelming invasion".

Why is Ulthwé so special that they have to throw everything they have against the might of the Imperium?

[Moonreaper666]

The Dark Eldar special characters didn't really exist at the time? I think you're underestimating the impact that the Fall had on Eldar society. They didn't discover soul stones until M32 or so, so at the time of the Great Crusade, they would still have been dealing with the fact that up until now, they got reborn after death, but now Slaanesh is waiting for them.

 

It also hasn't been centuries since the creation of the Phoenix Lords, given that we know from the Asurmen and Jain Zar novels that they were the first two, and they were still learning themselves in the aftermath of the Fall. By the time the Great Crusade was fully underway, they'd probably just found all the members who would become the Phoenix Lords we know. So, they've got to go from still figuring out what they are, and developing their entire martial art and philosophical outlook, to then starting to train up new Aspect Warriors. Best case, they might have a few hundred Aspect Warriors, total. They certainly don't have "countless".

 

Non-Drukhari seem to prefer the Craftworlds because that's where they are now. Before the Fall, the Craftworlds were literally just refugee ships that abandoned the Eldar Empire with what they could take with them, nowhere near what they are now. At that point they're basically glorified cruise ships.

 

As for fighting to the death to defend Ulthwé, why would they? They're already recovering from one racial genocide, why the hell would they throw themselves into another one while still coming to terms with the outcome of the first?

 

The Craftworld Eldar goal at this point in the setting is nothing but "nurse our wounds while we try to figure out what the just happened to our civilization, and why we're getting tortured for eternity after death". That's not the mindset that leads to "lets combine all our rag-tag forces for a fight to the death against this overwhelming invasion".

Why is Ulthwé so special that they have to throw everything they have against the might of the Imperium?

250 years since the Fall of the Eldar/beginning of the Great Crusade. Lelith Hesparax, Arha/Drazhar, Uriel Rankath and Kheradruakh were alive back then

 

The latter was the one that raided Nocturne and almost defeated Vulkan!

 

Ulthwé is one of the Major ones, holding countless billions of Eldar and Eldar souls in the Infinity Circuit. This isn't Idharae when its citizens were forced to go to Alaitoc, there is nowhere else to go but the Webway which they won't go and is dangerous

 

The souls/Infinity Circuit can't be moved and the other Craftworlds can't handle that many refugees. Both Iyaden and Alaitoc fought to the death without reinforcements. Ulthwé is permanently stuck next to the Eye of Terror

 

They have prep-time, for several reasons, to basically train many Eldar into Aspect Warriors and Seers as well as make as many vehicles and Wraiths. The rest are turned into Guardians and Bonesingers. Countless Avatars of Khaine will be deployed

 

A LOT of Orks will be there to fight the Loyalist Legions as the first wave of 'defense' and Trazyn's Necrons will be hard to kill

 

Asurmen alone can kill thousands of Astartes and destroy dozens of ships before dying once only to be revived again. Same with the other Phoenix Lords, including Drazhar/Arha

 

Lelith will easily defeat anyone short of a Primarch in a quick way. She will be boarding ships to eliminate Marines like Aeonid Theil, Corswain and other important Marines. Dark Eldar characters can be revived after the battle

[Lord_Caerolion]

There hasn’t been any indication that Lelith is that old. Phoenix Lords also can’t take on “thousands” of Astartes each, this isn’t DragonBall Z. Karandras has taken on Space Marines invading Alaitoc in 40k, and got taken apart by a Dreadnought.

The Craftworlds also don’t hold “countless billions”, they hold millions at best, and that’s in 40k after having time to recuperate, not shortly after the Fall.

They also do not have Wraiths, as the Craftworlds didn’t discover Spirit Stones until M32.

There are no “countless” Avatars, it’s literally one per Craftworld, no more, no less.

 

I don’t think you’re getting that in the Great Crusade, the Craftworlds weren’t just “40k, but with less guys”. The Craftworlds were in absolutely no position to fight. The Aspects were only just forming at the time. Jain Zar worked alongside Asuryan for years before even starting to become what she is now, and that was before they found Maugan Ra. 250 years is not enough for the Phoenix Lords to become what they are today, and widely establish their Temples like you’re suggesting.

 

Just... tone down the hyperbole, you sound like Michael Bay. Enough with the “and then this named character singlehandedly kills thousands of enemies, and the enemy deploys countless tanks” stuff. That’s not how 40k operates, and it sure as hell isn’t what the Craftworlds can do in M31.

[Moonreaper666]

There hasn’t been any indication that Lelith is that old. Phoenix Lords also can’t take on “thousands” of Astartes each, this isn’t DragonBall Z. Karandras has taken on Space Marines invading Alaitoc in 40k, and got taken apart by a Dreadnought.

The Craftworlds also don’t hold “countless billions”, they hold millions at best, and that’s in 40k after having time to recuperate, not shortly after the Fall.

They also do not have Wraiths, as the Craftworlds didn’t discover Spirit Stones until M32.

There are no “countless” Avatars, it’s literally one per Craftworld, no more, no less.

 

I don’t think you’re getting that in the Great Crusade, the Craftworlds weren’t just “40k, but with less guys”. The Craftworlds were in absolutely no position to fight. The Aspects were only just forming at the time. Jain Zar worked alongside Asuryan for years before even starting to become what she is now, and that was before they found Maugan Ra. 250 years is not enough for the Phoenix Lords to become what they are today, and widely establish their Temples like you’re suggesting.

 

Just... tone down the hyperbole, you sound like Michael Bay. Enough with the “and then this named character singlehandedly kills thousands of enemies, and the enemy deploys countless tanks” stuff. That’s not how 40k operates, and it sure as hell isn’t what the Craftworlds can do in M31.

Lelith and Vect are around the same age and the latter was alive when the Fall happened

 

Each Craftworld has one Avatar. So the other Craftworlds can send their Avatars to Ukthwe's defense

 

Maugan Ra defeated a Tyranid force on his one while Asurmen took on countless Daemons. The King of Mandrakes, Kheradruakh, fought Vulkan, before he was discovered by the Emperor, and almost defeated him

 

If Ulthwé had Millions of Eldar then the Phoenix Lords technically have millions of lives to spend

 

None of the Craftworlds the GC-Imperium fought were big ones like Ulthwé, Alaitoc, Biel-Tan, Iyaden and Saim-Hann. Ulthwé has been subjected to Daemon attacks ever since the Fall so they do have a substantial military

 

Fine, just the Dark Angels Legion without support attack Ulthwé and others that comes to its aid

[Moonreaper666]

Remember in Solar War when Aximand and his company teleported into Sigismund's ship and almost killed him?

 

What is preventing the Phoenix Lords, their allies and DE Special Characters from teleporting and killing the Primarchs?

 

Four Primarchs vs Nine Phoenix Lords (Drazhar/Arha is still one of them) plus Lelith Hesparax, Uriel Rankath, Trazyn the Infinite and Decapitator (that is Kheradruakh's nickname) I don't see the Primarchs getting out alive. Vulkan is kidnapped by either Tranzyn or the Dark Eldar

 

The deaths of Three Primarchs and the kidnapping of Vulkan will demoralize the invaders

[Lord_Caerolion]

You got a source on Lelith being as old as Vect?

 

You also ever think that maybe there's a reason the Craftworlds don't partake in any major military actions during the Great Crusade? 

 

And again, you're forgetting that we know how Space Marine invasions of Craftworlds go. Alaitoc got invaded by the Sons of Orar and Imperial Guard during 40k, and had the support of 3 Phoenix Lords and their Avatar. They were still losing. The full, 40k-era strength of one of the major Craftworlds, couldn't easily resist the assault of a single Chapter. Even if it's just the Dark Angels Legion, they are going to annihilate

 

Kheradruakh also fought Vulkan before he had any training, armour, or weapons other than blacksmith hammers.

 

Lastly, they have millions of lives to spend, but why? If faced with full-scale invasion, why would they not flee to the Webway? They've just experienced catastrophe, why the hell would they go into another major fight? Is the Webway perfectly safe for them? No, but it's a hell of a lot safer than a Craftworld currently under invasion by a major Imperial force. They don't really have an Infinity Circuit at this time, given Iyanden hasn't discovered spirit stones, so they're not exactly losing much.

 

Iyanden is the largest Craftworld, and it was devastated by a branch of a Tyranid splinter-fleet equivalent to the one that just the Ultramarines Chapter barely repulsed. Now, we know the Dark Angels were likely one of the larger Legions, so let's give them a strength of roughly 150,000. Not the largest Legions, but upper-middle range.

We also know that Alaitoc in "modern" days struggled to repulse an attack by 1000 Astartes. Ulthwé in 30k is not a match for Alaitoc in 40k, given what they'd just gone through, and the time Alaitoc had to recover. Even if we have all the other major Craftworlds (Biel-Tan/Alaitoc/Iyanden/Saim-hann), they're all individually probably not too much stronger than Ulthwé is right now, but let's take the guess-work out, give them a bit of a boost even, and say that each Craftworld can take on 1000 Astartes. Hell, you want them to have all Phoenix Lords there, when the Siege of Alaitoc only had 3, so let's throw on an additional 1000 Astartes they can take on. For the purposes of this, I'm counting the additional Avatars in the base strength of the Craftworlds. That gives us the Craftworlders being able to take on about 6000 Astartes. So, now they've only got to bring enough allies to be able to take on roughly 144,000 Dark Angels. 

 

Sure, you'll come back and say again that Maugan Ra took out an entire Tyranid swarm by himself, and that Asurman has killed "countless" daemons, but we don't know the specifics of those stories. We do know the specifics of the Siege of Alaitoc, and in that, the full strength of Alaitoc, plus Karandras, Maugan Ra, and Baharroth, were being driven back by 1000 Sons of Orar, on home territory.

 

No matter how you spin it, unless you just go with hyperbole, things do not look good for any Craftworld being invaded by a full Legion.

I know you want us to say that this scenario would totally win Horus the war, as the Loyalists and Eldar would all take each other out in this huge and awesome conflict, with super-cool duels of Lelith fighting the Lion and Corax at the same time, while Kheradruakh has a rematch with Vulkan, and the Phoenix Lords all blasting apart countless thousands of Astartes each, but everything we're shown demonstrates this is not how it would happen. The Craftworlds are not Legion-equivalent level threats. Not individually, not together, not with Dark Eldar reinforcements.

 

To take on these 144,000 Dark Angels left over, remember that it took 100,000 Astartes to take Ullanor, the largest stronghold of the Orks ever during the Great Crusade. In other words, to make this a fair fight, you'd basically need every single Craftworld PLUS the entire Orkish strength of Ullanor.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Lord_Caerolion

[Moonreaper666]

You got a source on Lelith being as old as Vect?

 

You also ever think that maybe there's a reason the Craftworlds don't partake in any major military actions during the Great Crusade?

 

And again, you're forgetting that we know how Space Marine invasions of Craftworlds go. Alaitoc got invaded by the Sons of Orar and Imperial Guard during 40k, and had the support of 3 Phoenix Lords and their Avatar. They were still losing. The full, 40k-era strength of one of the major Craftworlds, couldn't easily resist the assault of a single Chapter. Even if it's just the Dark Angels Legion, they are going to annihilate

 

Kheradruakh also fought Vulkan before he had any training, armour, or weapons other than blacksmith hammers.

 

Lastly, they have millions of lives to spend, but why? If faced with full-scale invasion, why would they not flee to the Webway? They've just experienced catastrophe, why the hell would they go into another major fight? Is the Webway perfectly safe for them? No, but it's a hell of a lot safer than a Craftworld currently under invasion by a major Imperial force. They don't really have an Infinity Circuit at this time, given Iyanden hasn't discovered spirit stones, so they're not exactly losing much.

 

Iyanden is the largest Craftworld, and it was devastated by a branch of a Tyranid splinter-fleet equivalent to the one that just the Ultramarines Chapter barely repulsed. Now, we know the Dark Angels were likely one of the larger Legions, so let's give them a strength of roughly 150,000. Not the largest Legions, but upper-middle range.

We also know that Alaitoc in "modern" days struggled to repulse an attack by 1000 Astartes. Ulthwé in 30k is not a match for Alaitoc in 40k, given what they'd just gone through, and the time Alaitoc had to recover. Even if we have all the other major Craftworlds (Biel-Tan/Alaitoc/Iyanden/Saim-hann), they're all individually probably not too much stronger than Ulthwé is right now, but let's take the guess-work out, give them a bit of a boost even, and say that each Craftworld can take on 1000 Astartes. Hell, you want them to have all Phoenix Lords there, when the Siege of Alaitoc only had 3, so let's throw on an additional 1000 Astartes they can take on. For the purposes of this, I'm counting the additional Avatars in the base strength of the Craftworlds. That gives us the Craftworlders being able to take on about 6000 Astartes. So, now they've only got to bring enough allies to be able to take on roughly 144,000 Dark Angels.

 

Sure, you'll come back and say again that Maugan Ra took out an entire Tyranid swarm by himself, and that Asurman has killed "countless" daemons, but we don't know the specifics of those stories. We do know the specifics of the Siege of Alaitoc, and in that, the full strength of Alaitoc, plus Karandras, Maugan Ra, and Baharroth, were being driven back by 1000 Sons of Orar, on home territory.

 

No matter how you spin it, unless you just go with hyperbole, things do not look good for any Craftworld being invaded by a full Legion.

 

I know you want us to say that this scenario would totally win Horus the war, as the Loyalists and Eldar would all take each other out in this huge and awesome conflict, with super-cool duels of Lelith fighting the Lion and Corax at the same time, while Kheradruakh has a rematch with Vulkan, and the Phoenix Lords all blasting apart countless thousands of Astartes each, but everything we're shown demonstrates this is not how it would happen. The Craftworlds are not Legion-equivalent level threats. Not individually, not together, not with Dark Eldar reinforcements.

 

To take on these 144,000 Dark Angels left over, remember that it took 100,000 Astartes to take Ullanor, the largest stronghold of the Orks ever during the Great Crusade. In other words, to make this a fair fight, you'd basically need every single Craftworld PLUS the entire Orkish strength of Ullanor.

Well there must be reasons why the non-Dark Eldar don't go to the Webway. It isn't entirely safe nor the Dark Eldar would be happy with their new neighbours

 

Trazyn, who was awake pre-Crusade, and his Necron Army are present in the battle

 

Actually, in the Siege of Alaitoc the Imperials retreated before they faced the full might of the Eldar Navy of several Craftworlds which would have obliterated the invaders

 

When Prince Yriel left Iyaden, pre-Kraken invasion, he took a portion of the Craftworld fleet with him

 

When Eldrad approach Fulgrim during the Great Crusade, he was with his companion, an old Wraithlord who was destroyed by the Phoenician

 

Decapitator, Tranzyn and Uriel teleport to the Salamander Flagship and defeat Vulkan. Uriel kidnaps Vulkan while Trazyn pilfers Vulkan's Artifacts. Decapitator slays a lot of Salamanders

 

If Kor Phaeron or a team of Alpha Legionnaires can beat Guilliman then Drazhar/Arha could defeat him or at least distract him and his lackeys

 

Lion and Corax versus the Phoenix Lords. The death or kidnapping of just one Primarch should cripple the invasion force. All four Primarchs could die at Ulthwé

 

And you are forgetting the most important part. Warmaster Horus can order the Loyalist to take Ulthwé intact which means boots on the ground which also means that they will be sandwiched between the defenders and the Daemons

 

If Four Legions plus support from other Imperium branches is too much, then Horus will send either the Salamanders or Raven Guard on their own. Neither Corax nor Vulkan would last more than a few seconds against the Phoenix Lords, Trazyn and Decapitator. Horus is one of the smartest Primarchs, he would calculate how much of the Loyalist he would sent to bleed at Ulthwé before he starts the Heresy

 

I thought of the Dark Angels because taking them out of the picture would have allowed Horus to easily win the Heresy

 

-If the Dark Angels lost the Lion and 1/3rd of their forces then they wouldn't part a huge part in the Heresy. Typhus gains the Tulchulcha Warp Engine giving the Death Guard and their Allies the ability to launch a surprise attack on the White Scars, killing Khan and most of his Legion early on

 

-The Night Lords become a bigger problem. Part of the Legion along with elements of the Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and World Eaters as well as Ma'dai pin down the Blood Angels and Ultramarines in the Ruinstorm and bleed them. Other elements ravage the Imperium freely or join Horus. There is a chance that Ma'dai and Konrad kill both Guilliman and Sanginius

 

-Horus has more forces under his command and plows through Beta-Garmon as there are less Imperial defenders. Same with Solar War and Siege of Terra resulting in Horus winning.

 

The Traitor Legions retain the Primaris Formula at Luna and begin mass-producing Chaos Primaris Astartes. Mars under the Dark Mechanicum starts making more warmachines

[mywrathbedone]

I think Lord_Caerolion has the right of it, but I don't think any of Moonreaper666's ideas can be discounted, simply because this IS the direction GW has been taking the tone of the setting for years now. They have gone out of their way to make it less Event Horizon, and more Marvel Heroes. So the Michael Bay analogy is very 40k nowadays. Note: the Michael Bay explosions were always part of 40k, just not so much the bad characters and story. Well, not usually.

 

Personally, I think a Crusade era Legion would crush virtually any resistance (which is basically what they were doing to the entire galaxy). At that time, the only match for an Astartes Legion was another Astartes Legion. I think that's the point of the 30k era. It was a time when the Imperium was NOT completely screwed. They were the big dogs, and it wasn't an argument. It's exemplified in what it took to destroy them (themselves), and makes the Heresy all the more tragic, being that they were on the cusp of their ultimate destiny, only to plunge way, way back down and be made to desperately struggle forever going forward.

 

Ultimately, write and play whatever scenario you want. I think most of us are with you in terms of being curious of what the Xenos were up to at that time. We have the bare bones idea of that, but to see it brought to life in the way the Imperium has been really makes you want more for the other guys. Even if it's just more information. Even if old, established canon doesn't leave much wiggle room within the suspension of disbelief zone, it's still your game as much as it is ours, so dream and play!

[Lord_Caerolion]

So again, a Chapter fleet would be crushed by the combined Craftworld fleet. Increase the initial defense of the Craftworlders in the invasion by about 6 (6 major Craftworlds). Now multiply the strength of the invaders by 150, to not just be a Chapter, but a full Legion. You're not exactly making the case of a Legion fleet being easily beatable. 

 

Plus, during the Great Crusade the Craftworlds don't have an established navy, at least not to the extent that they do in 40k. Remember, the Craftworlds started as civilian refugee ships. They weren't intended to be military vessels, and were not particularly well armed, at least until much, much later. We can also assume that they didn't take many military vessels with them, as the Craftworlders were, again, refugees fleeing the decline and destruction of the Eldar Empire. The Craftworld Eldar at the time of the Great Crusade were not a military power. They were the embers of a dead civilization only just beginning to rebuild. They were still rebuilding their society from the ground up. Even the Path system was still being developed.

 

Craftworlders make use of the Webway all the time, it's a large part of how they travel. They just don't move the Craftworlds in it because, now that they're fully established, there are very few areas that a Craftworld can go in the Webway, as most of the tunnels are either much smaller, or already inhabited and/or built up.

 

I'll correct myself on the Wraiths. They existed, but from what we know were in a much more limited variety, as Spirit stones as they currently exist weren't around during the Crusade era. Given that, Wraiths could not have been a wide-spread thing. We could probably assume, though, that what Wraiths did exist would be more well-designed than the current variations.

However, it should be noted that Fulgrim is considered an oddity in regards to the portrayal of what the Eldar had at the time. All previous, and all subsequent, fluff, has shown Eldrad as not being a Farseer at the time of the Heresy. McNeil seemed to forget that the Eldar weren't identical to their 40k counterparts at the time.

 

You've still not shown that a 40k Craftworld is not more powerful than just a Chapter with Imperial Guard/Navy support, and if that's the case, then even combined they've got no hope against a full Legion, even if they try to take it intact.

[Moonreaper666]

So again, a Chapter fleet would be crushed by the combined Craftworld fleet. Increase the initial defense of the Craftworlders in the invasion by about 6 (6 major Craftworlds). Now multiply the strength of the invaders by 150, to not just be a Chapter, but a full Legion. You're not exactly making the case of a Legion fleet being easily beatable.

 

Plus, during the Great Crusade the Craftworlds don't have an established navy, at least not to the extent that they do in 40k. Remember, the Craftworlds started as civilian refugee ships. They weren't intended to be military vessels, and were not particularly well armed, at least until much, much later. We can also assume that they didn't take many military vessels with them, as the Craftworlders were, again, refugees fleeing the decline and destruction of the Eldar Empire. The Craftworld Eldar at the time of the Great Crusade were not a military power. They were the embers of a dead civilization only just beginning to rebuild. They were still rebuilding their society from the ground up. Even the Path system was still being developed.

 

Craftworlders make use of the Webway all the time, it's a large part of how they travel. They just don't move the Craftworlds in it because, now that they're fully established, there are very few areas that a Craftworld can go in the Webway, as most of the tunnels are either much smaller, or already inhabited and/or built up.

 

I'll correct myself on the Wraiths. They existed, but from what we know were in a much more limited variety, as Spirit stones as they currently exist weren't around during the Crusade era. Given that, Wraiths could not have been a wide-spread thing. We could probably assume, though, that what Wraiths did exist would be more well-designed than the current variations.

However, it should be noted that Fulgrim is considered an oddity in regards to the portrayal of what the Eldar had at the time. All previous, and all subsequent, fluff, has shown Eldrad as not being a Farseer at the time of the Heresy. McNeil seemed to forget that the Eldar weren't identical to their 40k counterparts at the time.

 

You've still not shown that a 40k Craftworld is not more powerful than just a Chapter with Imperial Guard/Navy support, and if that's the case, then even combined they've got no hope against a full Legion, even if they try to take it intact.

Wouldn't the deaths of Vulkan, Lion, Guilliman and Corax (Vulkan is taken by Dark Eldar) stop the invasion fleet dead in its tracks?

 

Phoenix Lords and Dark Eldar Special Characters and Trazyn can teleport into the Primarchs' ships and take them out. Aximand almost killed Sigismund and killed Boreas and took the ship when he did it

 

If the death of just one Primarch would cripple the invasion, then they just gang up on Guilliman, the weakest of the four

 

The appearance of Daemons should take the Loyalist by surprise and kill ~20 000 Marines and a million Guardsmen/Skitarii

 

Ok, what about the bulk or half of the Salamanders or Raven Guard without support?

 

Ulthwé should have been invaded multiple times by Daemons during the course of the Great Crusade, no way they don't have an army and navy

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

Ulthwé should have been invaded multiple times by Daemons during the course of the Great Crusade, no way they don't have an army and navy

 

 

They weren't though, you're just assuming, and then rationalizing that obviously that means they had a well-established military/navy. They had some form of weapons, sure, but they don't exactly have a bustling infrastructure at that point. The Craftworlds in 40k are very different than 30k. They've been retrofitted, and expanded upon, and built up and built up and built up to far, far more than what they originally were. In 30k, they're basically cruise ships. Before the Fall, the Eldar who were worried about the decline basically packed their bags, and jumped on some commercial starships to get them away from everything. They weren't military vessels, they weren't equipped with mass-producing capable infrastructure, basically the Eldar equivalent of the Titanic.

 

They didn't flee with any sort of hierarchy in place, just "if you're terrified of how things are going, and got on board, you're now a Craftworlder". They didn't have the Path system in place yet, as we know that was developed by Asurmen, and he hadn't even begun teaching it to more than Jain Zar/Maugan Ra in the years after the Fall.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think if we're talking about the 40k Craftworlds, then something along what you're talking about could be possible. It's just that the Craftworld Eldar in 30k are almost indistinguishable from their 40k counterparts.

 

Could a team-up of all 40k Phoenix Lords take down Guilliman? Absolutely. 30k? At that point, they weren't much stronger than Exarchs. The whole point of the Phoenix Lords is that they get stronger over time, and from each resurrection. We know from the Jain Zar and Asurmen novels that in the years after the Fall, not too much earlier than the Horus Heresy, Asurmen, Jain Zar, and Maugan Ra had taken their names, and were formulating the beginnings of the Eldar Path, but they hadn't even finished what exactly their Aspects were, let alone be ready to train new students to emulate them. Asurmen was just some monk who used shurikens. Jain Zar was an ex-gladiator who was only just learning how to use her Scream. She was Jain Zar, but she wasn't Jain Zar, leader of the Howling Banshee Aspect of Khaine. It'll still be many, many years before they both find the other Asuryata, train them all to become the Asuryata, teach the Eldar Path to the Craftworlds, and then train them into the Aspects.