Prediction on 9th & how it will affect DA

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

 

 

I may have missed something but I cannot see where the new bladeguards get the Detahwimg key word. Did any of you saw something related ?

I have not seen anything for that yet either. Perhaps it will be in a new codex?

It was confirmed in the recent Faction Focus: Dark Angels article. I’d expect that there will be official rules contained in the Indomitus box set.

I know it was confirmed, but I haven't seen the actual rules for it. Perhaps it is in the box, but I haven't seen anyone cover the booklet inside. Regardless, we should know soon enough.

[Skywrath]

Wall of text incoming! After painstakingly listening to the point list changes repeatedly (thinking I am on the 4th attempt), I put the points down. Pretty sure they are about 95% correct, however there may be stragglers. Will do the weapons later tommorow. Enjoy!

 

Chaplain - 80

Chaplain with Jump-pack 105

Interrogator Chaplain - 85

Interrogator Chaplain in Terminator Armor - 105

Interrogator Chaplain with Jumppack - 110

Librarian - 90

Librarian in Phobos Armor - 98

Librarian in Terminator Armor - 105

Librarian in Jump Pack - 115

Lieutenants - 65

Lieutenants in Jump Pack- 95

Lieutenants in Phobos Armor - 78

Master - 80

Master in Cataphractii Armor - 95

Master in Gravis Armor - 105

Master in Phobos - 93 

Master in Terminator Armor - 95

Master in Jump pack - 105

Primaris Chaplain - 85

Primaris Librarian - 95

Primaris Lieutenant - 70

Primaris Master - 85

Ravenwing Talonmaster - 95

Techmarine - 50

 

Asmodai 115

Azrael 160

Belial 125

Ezekiel 115

Lazarus 110

Sammael in Sableclaw - 210

Sammael in Corvex - 140

 

Incursors - 21

Infiltrators -24, with Helix Adept - 34

Intercessors - 20

Scout - 14

Tacticals - 15

 

Aggressors - 40

Apothecary - 55

Ancient - 95

Company Ancient - 75

Company Champion - 40

Company Veteran 17

Contemptor Dreadnought -105

Deathwing Ancient - 75

Deathwing Apothecary - 75

Deathwing Cataphractii- 26

Deathwing Terminator Squad - 23

Deathwing Champion - 95

Deathwing Knights - 41

Deathwing Tartarus Squad - 23

Dreadnought - 70

Invictor - 135

Primaris Ancient - 80

Primaris Apothecary - 60

Ravenwing Ancient - 95

Ravenwing Apothecary - 65

Ravenwing Champion - 80

Redemptor Dreadnought - 125

Reiver Squad - 18

Venerable Dreadnought - 85

Servitors - 7

 

Assault Squad - 15

Assault Squad with Jump Pack - 17

Inceptor Squad - 40

Ravenwing Attack Bike Squad - 30

Ravenwing Bike Squad - 25

Ravenwing Black Knights - 40

Ravenwing Darkshroud - 120

Ravenwing Land Speeders - 45

Ravenwing Land Speeder Vengeance - 105

Scout bikes - 25

Suppressor Squads - 33

 

Devastator Squad - 15

Eliminator Squad - 28

Hellblasters - 33

Hunters - 95

Land Raider - 175

Land Raider Crusader - 215

Land Raider Reedemer - 245

Predator - 90

Repulsor Executioner - 250

Stalkers - 95

Vindicators - 30

Whirlwind - 125

 

Drop pods - 65

Impulsor - 100

Razorback - 80

Repulsor - 230

Rhino - 75

 

Nephilim Jetfighter - 105

Ravenwing Darktalon - 185

Gunship - 240

[Berzul]

I think detailing points is against board rules, Skywrath. I am not sure, but I think it is. I suggest you clear this with an admin. In any case, thank you for taking the effort to do this!! It's very thorough.

[Skywrath]

I think detailing points is against board rules, Skywrath. I am not sure, but I think it is. I suggest you clear this with an admin. In any case, thank you for taking the effort to do this!! It's very thorough.

 

Don't think so - the other SM forums are full of such point lists. I've seen one on the SW forum and the GK forum. But if it's against the rules, I guess Interrogator Stobz can delete it (sorry in advance to Stobz, if it's against the rules).   

[Berzul]

 

I think detailing points is against board rules, Skywrath. I am not sure, but I think it is. I suggest you clear this with an admin. In any case, thank you for taking the effort to do this!! It's very thorough.

 

Don't think so - the other SM forums are full of such point lists. I've seen one on the SW forum and the GK forum. But if it's against the rules, I guess Interrogator Stobz can delete it (sorry in advance to Stobz, if it's against the rules).   

 

Again, I am not sure... I just remember one time this was mentioned.

[Fierce Bear]

Thanks for the transhuman patience and sharing details Skywrath!

 

(Stobz, be gentle he only meant to help us purge the Xenos)

[Interrogator Stobz]

Controversially, while we may not like it, I think the points increase to DWK is justified.

 

Ritual of the Damned gave the DWK access to some incredibly powerful boosts:

- +1 toughness

- Transhuman Physiology

- 5+++

- +1 to hit

- re-roll wounds on characters

- deepstrike 6” away

 

These are on top of Fortress of Shields, +1A from your Ancient and flat multi-damage weapons too That’s a very nice array of boosts to spend our CPs on, which 9th Ed is likely to make more available too.

 

The few times I played with DWK in 8th, they were brutal. A points increase does hurt, but arguably its justified.

Those things can be boosts to other TDA too, as they are independent of DWK they shouldn't be used as justification for DWK increases.

[G8Keeper]

Thing is though normal DW don't come auto equipped to wreck face and even when you do it with TH + SS they're still on a -1 to hit in combat. That and there's been an ongoing issue with run of the mill termies for some time now, an issue that DWK have firmly been outside of.

[Interrogator Stobz]

DWK and DWT with TH/SS with CML are very similar in effectiveness now with the -1 limit as correctly noted above.

 

I'll be playing TH/SS/CMK with all those buffs in 9th and love it :D

And now I will not buy Cenobian Knights for converting to DWKs just yet, my wallet thanks me.

[Berzul]

The big thing is that, I think.

 

That Deathwing Knights hit on a 3+, and Deathwing Terminators with hammers hit on a 4+, and can only re-roll natural rolls of 1 and 2, not 3.

 

Their threshold for failure in attacks is a lot higher than for the Deathwing Knights.

 

Is the difference in cost worth that? Not sure... but, it certainly IS a difference. When you consider that the Deathwing Terminator with the Thunder Hammer and the Storm Shield comes to 43 points a model, then what you are having as a true difference is that one unit hits more accurately than the other, for a 2 point per model difference in cost.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Berzul

[Interrogator Stobz]

Meh, happy to disagree on actual effectiveness comparison; my only point was costing something based on additions that apply to everyone is not a fair justification. And I'll stand by that.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Interrogator Stobz
clarity

[Mattias]

Based on the leaks a Deathwing Terminator with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is 42 points vs the 45 points for a Deathwing Knight, so a 3 point per model difference.

 

You also have to consider the Knight Master being fixed in weapon loadout, with arguably a worse weapon against certain targets. 

 

The -1 to hit is also offset by an extra point of AP on the Thunder Hammer vs the Mace.

 

You also have to consider that negative to hit is now capped, so the DWT are effectively immune to any further negative modifiers whilst the DWK are not.

 

Also there are several factions that have an ability to ignore AP-2 (i.e. Custodes, SoB etc), which makes the AP-3 of the Thunder Hammer important.

 

If we were just comparing close combat capability a case could be made for either squad dependent upon the opposing force, but the DWT have access to Cyclone Missile Launchers and the DWK do not. For 10 points more than a 5 man DWK squad, you can get a 5 man DWT squad with TH/SS/CML.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Mattias

[G8Keeper]

Based on the leaks a Deathwing Terminator with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield is 42 points vs the 45 points for a Deathwing Knight, so a 3 point per model difference.

 

You also have to consider the Knight Master being fixed in weapon loadout, with arguably a worse weapon against certain targets. 

 

The -1 to hit is also offset by an extra point of AP on the Thunder Hammer vs the Mace.

 

You also have to consider that negative to hit is now capped, so the DWT are effectively immune to any further negative modifiers whilst the DWK are not.

 

Also there are several factions that have an ability to ignore AP-2 (i.e. Custodes, SoB etc), which makes the AP-3 of the Thunder Hammer important.

 

If we were just comparing close combat capability a case could be made for either squad dependent upon the opposing force, but the DWT have access to Cyclone Missile Launchers and the DWK do not. For 10 points more than a 5 man DWK squad, you can get a 5 man DWT squad with TH/SS/CML.

 

 

I think both have a place, which is a good thing as I have units of both painted up :). What I would like to see in new codex DA is some differentiation between the units and/or a stratagem or two specifically for DWK and BK.

 

Just a point of reference on the flail's usefulness, whilst it will be worse against some targets, the extra damage carrying over makes it bloomin good versus others :D.

[Angel of Solitude]

 

Controversially, while we may not like it, I think the points increase to DWK is justified.

 

Ritual of the Damned gave the DWK access to some incredibly powerful boosts:

- +1 toughness

- Transhuman Physiology

- 5+++

- +1 to hit

- re-roll wounds on characters

- deepstrike 6” away

 

These are on top of Fortress of Shields, +1A from your Ancient and flat multi-damage weapons too That’s a very nice array of boosts to spend our CPs on, which 9th Ed is likely to make more available too.

 

The few times I played with DWK in 8th, they were brutal. A points increase does hurt, but arguably its justified.

Those things can be boosts to other TDA too, as they are independent of DWK they shouldn't be used as justification for DWK increases.

 

 

I appreciate that others have responded to this on my behalf, but I think it's appropriate to also respond.

 

In the first instance, you're absolutely correct - those buffs I call out apply equally to all terminators, so to suggest that only the DWK justify a points increase to reflect these benefits does appear off the mark. In fact, perhaps our DWT should be priced higher than regular Space Marine Terminators to reflect the additional boosts we can apply.

 

However, I guess the key context to me is the starting position for both of those units. After CA2019, DWK were rocking in at 35 points a model, and TH/SS at 41 points a model. Ritual of the Damned came along with no points adjustments, and thus turned DWK into an insanely efficient unit. So in that context - and to my original statement - a points increase to DWK is justified. Placing them 2pts per model above the TH/SS equivalent is about right to reflect the difference between BS3+ vs effective BS4+.

 

Anyway. At the end of the day it is what it is, we all play our different way and for some, TH/SS may be preferential to DWK. I personally love the models and their iconic nature, so will always be looking for an opportunity to fit them into my list!

[Interrogator Stobz]

:tu:

[G8Keeper]

I've been thinking about how many leadership debuffs we can apply in game, do we think it's a valid tactic vs a suitable enemy? Something they won't be expecting. I'm thinking Interrogator Chaplains, Mind Wipe, Eye of the Unseen and Reivers.

[Fierce Bear]

I've been thinking about how many leadership debuffs we can apply in game, do we think it's a valid tactic vs a suitable enemy? Something they won't be expecting. I'm thinking Interrogator Chaplains, Mind Wipe, Eye of the Unseen and Reivers.

I guess you want to see yah applied to units with sub-par LD i.e. less than Marines, with Look out Sir being a tighter thing now potentially a more common tactic? Snipe out the high LD buff HQ and target another unit to role morale..

 

It's a tricky combo but Guard and Orks perhaps?

Edited July 15, 2020 by Fierce Bear

[G8Keeper]

I reckon high Ld units like marines could be caught out a bit.  Give the Eye of the Unseen to an Interrogator Chaplain with Jump Pack and drop him in with some Reivers, if you cause 1 casualty that's a morale check at -4, just something I was thinking about to make the most of combat attrition.  With lower Ld armies you could spread the debuffs around and force more morale check failures and thus more rolls of 1 on combat attrition. It's not going to win you a game on its own, but it might nab an objective at a critical time when used right.

[Fierce Bear]

Are you thinking too target a squad with two or more Reiver squads? They fight, grab the casualty (do something from dark) and force the morale, one of Stobz protégés jumps in and they scatter for the hills?

 

The Eye of the unseen has that fight last on characters, in 9th and second round of combat (say you arrived with relic into a mid-game mass brawl) could catch a few characters unawares...

 

I like the idea or a terror/reivers/Chaplain build but have quite found it yet G8Keeper... Perhaps you've started something?

[Skywrath]

No joke, I had a theorycrafting build in 8th with leadership shenigans. I don't expect it to work well in practice. I used pretty much the same units as G8Keeper. However mine was scaled down to 1750, with two noticeable changes - adding suppressors (to deny overwatch) and eliminators (to soften them up before dropping the reiver bomb with the IC, Master with relic blade and DWC). Haven't gotten around to buying the units yet, so never really got around to optimising that list. That list was my firewing list.

 

However with 9th, I'm refreshing all of my wings, so I'll get around to optimizing said one.. currently working on my Dreadwing one.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Skywrath

[Wrath of Bruinen]

The Ld bomb is an interesting idea - I’m not sure whether the new morale rules make it better or worse than before - combat attrition means you potentially do more casualties than before, but it also potentially means you do less than you would have under 8th.

 

On the tactic itself, may as well add an inquisitor for their -1 Ld spell and to try and farm some more CP.

 

The key challenge of the tactic is how easy it is to get around - so many armies have fearless units or Ld buffs like commissars, and everyone has a stratagem to autopass morale. At the moment I don’t have a good solution to that - night lords had an entire edition to work it out and I don’t know that they ever really did.

But it should be a fun theme for a casual game

[G8Keeper]

I think you have to have a perfect storm situation for it to wreck face, but most armies have units that you can hurt with it. I like the Inquisitor idea too hmmm.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

And now they don’t even break doctrines!

I think there’s a lot of utility to an ordo xenos inquisitor with the esoteric lore WL trait (using the stratagem to give them a trait without making them your warlord). It’s the inverse of brilliant strategist (ie roll to get a CP when your opponent uses a strat). Plus a psychic power for -1 LD and deny overwatch, or a different one that gives an enemy character -1 to hit and gains a cp from them if they fail a Ld Test on 3D6. It’s probably not worth the investment of a full leadership bomb, but I think a librarian/inquisitor tag team could be a useful little duo for handing out debuffs and bringing in a few extra CPs

[jaxom]

I like the idea of Dark Angels and Inquisition in Crusade; the Inquisitor never gains experience because they always mysteriously disappear after each battle and a new one comes to investigate.

[Fierce Bear]

I like the idea of Dark Angels and Inquisition in Crusade; the Inquisitor never gains experience because they always mysteriously disappear after each battle and a new one comes to investigate.