9th rule: modifiers capped at -/+ 1

[emperorpants]

So what does that mean for space marines? Say you get shock assault and then have a relic, like the Ultramarines standard that adds plus 1 to attack, does this mean they don't stack? If so, that relic is useless. Might of heroes is lessened as well. What about the camo cloaks for eliminators? What about all the strats that add extra ap when in a certain doctrine? Will they no longer stack with the doctrine ap bonus? There are a lot of implications.

[Hymnblade]

We have no idea how this cap actually works. It almost certainly does not apply to anything like AP, charge rolls, or strength bonuses. It might just be hit rolls and maybe wound rolls.

[emperorpants]

We have no idea how this cap actually works. It almost certainly does not apply to anything like AP, charge rolls, or strength bonuses. It might just be hit rolls and maybe wound rolls.

Yeah, I'm hoping you are right.

[Dracos]

Makes Chaplains and Smoke Grenades on Raven Guard a lot less useful if true :(

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It applies to hit rolls so eldar flyers won’t be as much a pain.

[Silas7]

I like it.

[Ishagu]

This new cap applies to hit modifiers like +1 to hit and -1 to hit.

 

It's not for additional attacks, those aren't actually modifiers but are instead bonus actions.

[Panzer]

Not to mention that they were talking about Eldar flyers being too hard to hit when mentioning the cap.

[Captain Idaho]

Marines are the big winner there... we will never have worse than a 4+ to hit with anything now, barring Overwatch and likely Culexus Assassins.

 

With flanking rules as well, we can save points on transports for some units that have decent range anyway and get them into the action. Things like Devastator squads, Sternguard, Centurions, Aggressors and Hellblasters are going to find coming on the table on a flank very useful.

[Khornestar]

I like this very much if it turns out to be what we think it is, but the cynical part of me thinks it’s only a matter of time before rules start being broken for certain units/factions and we end up in exactly the same situation. I really hope never means never, in the case of hit modifiers.

[Ishagu]

Let's say you're using a Predator tank and you move. That's -1 to hit. If you're targeting a flyer that's another -1. What happens then? Is one of the rules ignored or do they still stack?

 

I think they should still stack as one is a self imposed penalty, and the other is imposed by the rules of the opponent's unit.

[SkimaskMohawk]

They're probably changing how heavy weapons work when moving.

 

If not, according to them, then the pred would only hit on 4s since they're both modifying your hit roll.

[Ishagu]

That's awful. Will need some clarification on this because it makes unit abilities far less interesting in this particular case.

 

Makes rules like Power of the Machine spirit lose a lot of their value.

[SkimaskMohawk]

If heavy weapons function the same? Ya a bit when shooting at units with additional modifiers. If it changes to something else, then it'll get better.

 

I don't think changing one of the most problematic parts of the game is awful; being able to make some armies unable to hit completely is awful.

 

Now 8ths terrible design of having every rule be on datasheets makes it a lot harder to surgically tweak the stacking without a ton of faqing, so there's only so many things they can change in the core rules. It's possible theyre going to have heavy stack with any particular datasheet/strat/trait, but not let those stack together.

[Captain Idaho]

95% of the time, it not more, your moving Predator won't be firing at a model that stacks minuses to hit. Eldar and Raven Guard really. Power of the Machine Spirit does something for vehicles that a Predator would be jealous of.

 

I think it's a great change. Modified hit rolls beyond a single minus makes for a game where you feel like you can't do anything and are looking for 6s.

 

Why would you want it any other way?

Edited May 29, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Ishagu]

But it makes multiple abilities worthless. It means a moving Landraider is no better than a moving Predator when shooting at a flyer.

 

It also means that the Flyer's speed and evasion is ignored by moving vehicles that would be even less accurate when shooting. That makes no sense.

 

Not very thematic!

Edited May 29, 2020 by Ishagu

[SkimaskMohawk]

Don't talk about things being thematic. The whole point of vehicles mounting heavy weapons is to have a stable firing platform; it's thematic for them to fire as badly moving as shooting at a fighter while being still. It's unthematic for grots to punch land raiders to death. It's unthematic for repulsors to spin 360 degrees to shoot every single weapon it has at the same target.

 

8th is the edition of abstractions meant to facilitate game play. And maybe that day 1 faq will be comprehensive and change a variety of abilities that are now redundant or non-functional. Or maybe they won't there'll be a ton of units that lose utility on the edition change just like what happened from 7th to 8th.

[Panzer]

Marines are the big winner there... we will never have worse than a 4+ to hit with anything now, barring Overwatch and likely Culexus Assassins.

 

 

I'm not sure I completely agree. Negative hit modifier were annoying for Marines but it made my T'au almost unplayable. Capping it at -1 helps my T'au a LOT while it makes fighting such opponents with my Marines just a little bit less annoying.

[War Angel]

 

 

Marines are the big winner there... we will never have worse than a 4+ to hit with anything now, barring Overwatch and likely Culexus Assassins.

 

I'm not sure I completely agree. Negative hit modifier were annoying for Marines but it made my T'au almost unplayable. Capping it at -1 helps my T'au a LOT while it makes fighting such opponents with my Marines just a little bit less annoying.

Marines pay a price to always hit on 3’s, or sometimes 2’s having a -3 to hit really brings that low quantity of high quality shots down. Simultaneously a -3 to hit for other armies makes them unable to hit a single thing. Really, every faction is winning but the guys who stack the minuses and pluses. But Marines never being reduced past 50% chance to hit is going to feel so good.

[Panzer]

 

 

Marines are the big winner there... we will never have worse than a 4+ to hit with anything now, barring Overwatch and likely Culexus Assassins.

I'm not sure I completely agree. Negative hit modifier were annoying for Marines but it made my T'au almost unplayable. Capping it at -1 helps my T'au a LOT while it makes fighting such opponents with my Marines just a little bit less annoying.

Marines pay a price to always hit on 3’s, or sometimes 2’s having a -3 to hit really brings that low quantity of high quality shots down. Simultaneously a -3 to hit for other armies makes them unable to hit a single thing. Really, every faction is winning but the guys who stack the minuses and pluses. But Marines never being reduced past 50% chance to hit is going to feel so good.

 

 

Yeah of course everyone is winning. -3 is harsh for anyone. I was more thinking about -2 and how it makes THE shooty army hit on 6s with pretty much everything while Marines who are also somewhat capable in melee would still be hitting on 5s, aka twice as good, not to mention that the main way to boost T'au shooting is based on hitting with a ranged weapon in the first place (Markerlights) while Marines also have a bunch of aura abilities and such. :sweat:

At the end of the day, it's a good and healthy change for everyone. I'm looking forward to it.

[Ishagu]

I agree that enemy units shouldn't impose more than a -1, but if you move a unit with heavy weapons you have put the modifier on yourself.

 

If flyers are only ever -1 to hit then it takes away tactical decisions such as moving a unit to take a shot but being less effective.

[BluejayJunior]

I mentioned it elsewhere as well, but I wouldn't be surprised if moving with Heavy weapons and advancing with Assault weapons are called out as still stacking with other penalties to hit. All it would take is an extra line in the rules for those weapons.

[Khornestar]

I mentioned it elsewhere as well, but I wouldn't be surprised if moving with Heavy weapons and advancing with Assault weapons are called out as still stacking with other penalties to hit. All it would take is an extra line in the rules for those weapons.

 

Conceptually, that makes perfect sense, but this is exactly the sort of thing that makes me doubt modifiers will really be limited to +1/-1. There will probably be plenty of situations like this.

[War Angel]

I can see a “this model has minus one to its ballistic skull because it moved” as one modifier while “when shooting at this model subtract 1 from all shots because it flys” as a modifier on the unit being shot, thus two different units, they stack like that.

[Captain Idaho]

 

Marines are the big winner there... we will never have worse than a 4+ to hit with anything now, barring Overwatch and likely Culexus Assassins.

 

 

I'm not sure I completely agree. Negative hit modifier were annoying for Marines but it made my T'au almost unplayable. Capping it at -1 helps my T'au a LOT while it makes fighting such opponents with my Marines just a little bit less annoying.

I will defer to your greater knowledge of the Tau of course. I just thought they never missed anyway, what with all those marker lights etc.

 

Anyway, glad there's plenty of armies winning! ;)