9th rule: modifiers capped at -/+ 1

[tychobi]

I think the removal of stacking negative modifiers might be a great move. Defensive stacking has been the worst offender for breaking the game. Always feels bad when your army of super soldiers with advanced weapons does nothing. That said always hitting on 6s might have been enough.

As to the removal of positive stacking I figure the problem is rules that proc on 6s ballooning in power when you can stack bonuses. Seems like a decent fix.

[War Angel]

Always hitting on 6’s is great if your orks. It’s hot garbage if your marines.

[Dracos]

A unit getting -1 to hit with a heavy weapon after moving has to stack with other minus otherwise the Raven Guard chapter trait or Smoke Grenades then become  totally unusable. 

 

Actually why would Raven Guard use Smoke Grenades at all if it makes their Chapter trait useless or vis-a-versa depends on how you look at that. 

 

I'm hoping between this kind of stuff and everyone getting a reserve/deployment version of Strike from the Shadows they haven't totally nerfed the Raven Guard into basically a vanilla marine chapter. 

 

 

Yeah I'm a tad salty, and will be until the big picture shows me otherwise. Sometimes it's better to have no knowledge instead of a little. I'd say I trust them to have it balanced but pretty sure a few factions would still laugh at that idea.

[Ishagu]

If there is a hard cap of 1 it really is a bit silly.

 

It's true, Raven Guard CT would suffer because an army of models with heavy weapons can run around shooting, and the RG rules would be ignored.

[Dracos]

Not jut the Raven Guard though. What's the point Ultramarine Incursors tossing smoke grenades? That Guardmen is now free to move any heavy weapons he was firing to get them off the objective without penalty. 

 

This, psychic power, stratagems, all have to work differently or become pretty useless. 

 

 

 

The thing is, I don't remember seeing any list besides Eldar that made this a core of their game plan. I'm getting the same salty feeling I did when the Raven Guard were punished because Alpha Legion were stomping in with hordes T1. 

 

Thing is I love the Raven Guard fluff but I'm a DIY Chapter and can change Chapters if I want to be competitive. I just don't want to be that guy .... and btw what joker thought nerfing Centurions and MoA was a good idea?  He should have said SftS. 

[Ishagu]

I completely agree.

 

Here's the thing. I'm not against these new core rules, but they will have to re-write the codex and Chapter tactics or many or our armies will potentially really suffer.

Edited May 29, 2020 by Ishagu

[Subtleknife]

It should be a limit on defence stacking. If you move with a heavy weapon that should not count towards stacking.

[Khornestar]

I guess I'd like to see the video segment where they actually talk about it, as there is a tendency for things to be misconstrued like a game of telephone.

[TheNewman]

Nevermind, it just occured to me that you can use that rule if you advance. Edited May 29, 2020 by TheNewman

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If there is a hard cap of 1 it really is a bit silly.

It's true, Raven Guard CT would suffer because an army of models with heavy weapons can run around shooting, and the RG rules would be ignored.

I’ve thought about this.a lot... there is still A LOT we don’t know. Obviously there will be FAQs for each faction with the release of the new edition. Also Space Marines are always one of the first codices to drop each new edition. Now you can worry all you want about how possibly your faction will be nerfed. it’s all just speculation at this point. I really don’t see SM suddenly dropping to trash tier and our new codex and supplements were written with the new edition in mind. But if you like to worry go on with yourself. ;)

[War Angel]

If it does nerf you I’m sure it will be addressed later.

 

 

Edit, phone autocorrected nerf*

Edited May 30, 2020 by War Angel

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is worth a listen:

 

https://youtu.be/HR1naQW8dGg

[Khornestar]

It was worth listening, cool! Nothing about the modifiers, but lots of other good stuff.

[Kallas]

A unit getting -1 to hit with a heavy weapon after moving has to stack with other minus otherwise the Raven Guard chapter trait or Smoke Grenades then become  totally unusable. 

 

Actually why would Raven Guard use Smoke Grenades at all if it makes their Chapter trait useless or vis-a-versa depends on how you look at that.

 

Well, for one thing, using those Smoke Grenades means that you impose that -1 to hit on every ranged weapon, not just Heavy Weapons. So those Rapid Fire 1 Plasma Guns are at -1; those Assault 3 Disintegrators are at -1.

 

As for the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic, Smoke Grenades give that unit the -1 to be hit by ranged weapons even when they not on terrain, which means they might not present an easier target (eg, all other units are -1, so just shoot the not-used-Smoke-Grenades unit because they're easier to hit/kill.)

 

Yes, certain things will be different, doesn't mean they're worthless.

[SydonianDragoon404]

I think a cap on the hit roll modifiers will mean that at 2k points chapter masters will be less of an auto-include. Especially if the -1 is seen less often spread across the board. Which in my opinion is a good thing. Something like Chapter Master should never be so good that its an auto-include, that's bad for the game. 

[War Angel]

 

 

A unit getting -1 to hit with a heavy weapon after moving has to stack with other minus otherwise the Raven Guard chapter trait or Smoke Grenades then become totally unusable.

 

Actually why would Raven Guard use Smoke Grenades at all if it makes their Chapter trait useless or vis-a-versa depends on how you look at that.

Well, for one thing, using those Smoke Grenades means that you impose that -1 to hit on every ranged weapon, not just Heavy Weapons. So those Rapid Fire 1 Plasma Guns are at -1; those Assault 3 Disintegrators are at -1.

 

As for the Raven Guard Chapter Tactic, Smoke Grenades give that unit the -1 to be hit by ranged weapons even when they not on terrain, which means they might not present an easier target (eg, all other units are -1, so just shoot the not-used-Smoke-Grenades unit because they're easier to hit/kill.)

 

Yes, certain things will be different, doesn't mean they're worthless.

It’s giving you options, just like the ultramarine tanks in CC.

[Ishagu]

It throws away too much.

 

If you pop smoke and I move a squad with heavy weapons I ignore the smoke effect rule.

 

We need some clarification from GW. A hard cap of 1 isn't great, 2 makes more sense. This is coming from someone who doesn't play any army that has negative hit modifiers.

[Captain Idaho]

My heart bleeds for all those armies that can't stack modifiers on their units now...

 

Lol

[Dracos]

I suppose with that attitude it's time I started thinking about leaving the forum again. Always nice for a mod to ridicule the concerns of a board member because they're anxious about the new rules killing the flavor of their army. It's not like the combination of Raven Guard and Smoke Grenades was setting the competitive circuit on fire. Maybe we should look back a year or two and the anxiety in the post over the FIrstborn being squatted. With the reserve and deployment rules becoming universal it really does appear that the rules that make Raven Guard a unique army to play are being stripped or given away ... but hey thanks for the support. Not like anything global is going on to cause people to be more anxious than normal.

[Captain Idaho]

Raven Guard aren't defined by stacking smoke launchers on their troops, or by a smoke bomb.

 

It's such a niche and really not such a big issue. They are assassins with their spin on Doctrine rules, they have unique Relics, Warlord Traits and Strategum support. They also have a Trait that gives them a little extra protection from afar.

 

We don't know how other rules will affect Raven Guard or even if there'll be an FAQ.

 

I mean, come on, Ultramarines vehicles can't get benefit from our Trait as much either as the rumours and leaks and previews go. Is it a big deal? Not really. Let's wait and see.

 

The value of Ultramarines Martial Discipline is much reduced too as hitting automatically isn't so hot with the modifiers being limited now. Again, no big deal we'll see.

 

I know I'd like to play a fair and balanced game where both sides can enjoy it.

 

Sorry you're offended by this. It wasn't my intent.

[Ishagu]

Astartes need a new codex. The book will be usable, of course, but clearly a lot of abilities, traits and strats will be voided. Edited May 30, 2020 by Ishagu

[emperorpants]

Pretty sure I saw in the new ad mech preview that the flier gets a -2 to hit if it advances. It's in its data sheet. It can advance and fire Las canons, but if it does it suffers a -2 to hit. This means 1 of two things: either GW didn't have 9th in mind quite as much as they claim, or negatives to hit can stack from outside sources and it's just that an army can't buff it's own units more than 1. Either one is quite possible. However circumstantial evidence seems to indicate the stacking as more likely, as why mention that all armies hit on 6's if -1 was the worst that shooting could ever get?

 

Still it's perfectly possible that GW just messed up hardcore and didn't think any of this through totally.

[Captain Idaho]

It'll be interesting to see how that works eh. I can imagine self inflicted minuses and those you inflict on your opponents is a complication GW wouldn't want but you never know.

[Khornestar]

New edition of the game, frater. Certain things will carry over, certain things won’t. We’ll all have to adjust, as we always do. Keep the faith! It will be OK, the game will still be fun. Just different.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It throws away too much.

 

If you pop smoke and I move a squad with heavy weapons I ignore the smoke effect rule.

 

We need some clarification from GW. A hard cap of 1 isn't great, 2 makes more sense. This is coming from someone who doesn't play any army that has negative hit modifiers.

Tiggy can make one unit -1 to hit, plus Incursors and Infiltrators have smoke grenades. The way the new rules for terrain will work I don’t think it’s going to be a big deal.