Are DA Bladeguard likely to be part of the 1st Company?

[Iron Lord]

We know that, for "vanilla" Marines, Bladeguard are part of the 1st Company:

 

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/24/warhammer-40000-more-models-revealedgw-homepage-post-3/

 

but, assuming Dark Angels get them, will they be part of the 1st Company for them as well, or will they be handled the way "Veterans" were - by turning them into "Company Veterans"?

 

 

IMO it's more likely that they'll be part of the 1st Company - GW is not so attached to "Deathwing are Terminators" that they'll miss the opportunity to sell Primaris models  to Deathwing players. It makes sense to me that, after over 100 years, some Primaris will be ready to join the 1st Company as well as the Inner Circle (as opposed to existing members of the Inner Circle, crossing the Rubicon,  which has already been done) - and if a Primaris cannot wear Terminator armour, they'll have to wear power armour instead and compensate by using a shield for extra protection.

 

 

Thoughts?

Edited May 27, 2020 by Iron Lord

[Herbington]

For me, I'm thinking they'll be Company Veterans.

I'm not sure I want to put "normal" power armoured guys in the Deathwing. Nothing about them being Primaris, I've already painted a Gravis master and Flamer Agressor squad in Deathwing colours.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Herbington

[Robbienw]

It would ride roughshod over years of nicely developed fluff on how the Deathwing is organised and operates.  But they want to sell the new marines to everyone, so it will probably happen  

 

Might as well let the Deathwing have Sternguard and Vanguard veterans as well. 

[Berzul]

I expect the fluff of the Dark Angels to evolve with the new range, a bit. With the composition of both the Deathwing and the Ravenwing changing, to move away from exclusively terminators and exclusively bikes, into companies that have a strategic focus but incorporate more of the range of units from the new Space Marines options.

 

I hope they won't, but I expect them to.

 

For now, the most credible assumption would be to place them in the battle companies as Company Veterans, though.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Berzul

[Brother Tyler]

The Deathwing [company] being solely Terminators has been one of the key distinguishing aspects of the Unforgiven since they were re-created in 2nd edition. I don't see that changing with Primaris, except that it will shift from TDA to Gravis if GW ever mothballs legacy Adeptus Astartes.

 

The other veterans of the Unforgiven have been encapsulated in the Ravenwing and, when GW saw the need for power armoured veterans, the Company Veterans. I don't see that changing with Primaris.

[Master Sheol]

Bladeguard wears PA

DW is all about TDA

Bladeguard will be primaris company veterans in DA armies

 

@BrotherTyler Gravis is just a better armoured PA so i don't think that it is the primaris equivalent of TDA. In addition gravis is issued to standard troopers while TDA to veterans.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Master Sheol

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't think bladeguard veterans will be Deathwing. Just as company veterans are not in our first company, I think they will just be associated with various companies instead of part of the 1st company.

This same point was brought up months ago with some folks expecting Phobos armor to be the new Ravenwing, and that was totally wrong as we can clearly see. We have observed so far that they do not intend to alter the Unforgiven composition like that with the introduction of Primaris.

I don't think they will add Gravis necessarily to DW, or if they do, it won't be the units in Gravis that currently exist. I don't think they will want to duplicate units in the Deathwing that are in the greenwing.

Similarly, I do not think GW sees gravis as terminator armor, otherwise it would have a Crux Terminatus and be used by veterans and not by line troops. I do not think they will retcon out honors such as the Crux Terminatus.

Edited May 27, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Iron Lord]

This same point was brought up months ago with some folks expecting Phobos armor to be the new Ravenwing, and that was totally wrong as we can clearly see. We have observed so far that they do not intend to alter the Unforgiven composition like that with the introduction of Primaris.

It's hinted that Primaris Outriders will be Ravenwing. Which suggests that the Ravenwing at least, will have an influx of Primaris. Why not the Deathwing?  What matters about the 1st Company is that they're the only full company that can be trusted with the secret of the Fallen - not what they wear. (Only a small portion of the Ravenwing, their inner circle, the Black Knights, are trusted with the same secrets).

 

 

Surely it doesn’t get better for Space Marines collectors than that… right?

Except, there is one type of Primaris Space Marine requested more than any other… we’ve seen the tweets, the pleading Facebook posts and even the politely raised hands in Q&A sessions across the world. Well, White Scars, Ravenwing and other speed-obsessed Space Marines fans… now is your time to shine. Meet the Primaris Outriders. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Iron Lord

[WrathOfTheLion]

Yes, the point there is that they there are primaris Ravenwing, but they use the proper wargear. The last time this sort of conversation came up at RotD, the claim was that infiltrators, etc. would be RW. We can also conclude that the leaked landspeeder will be in the RW, because it's a landspeeder.

So to me, the conclusion is that there will eventually be Primaris Terminators, and those will be in the Deathwing.

Edited May 27, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Raychu]

I don't know about primaris deathwing. But as I like thoses bladeguards, I am thinking of doing another vanilleBut chapter just to be able to use them.

 

Furthermore I have to say i am a bit sad for my ravenwing to have to incoporate primaris bikers. How will the fluff move with this?

[Iron Lord]

 

So to me, the conclusion is that there will eventually be Primaris Terminators, and those will be in the Deathwing.

 

Maybe. But alternatively, "Bladeguard Deathwing" cover the 1st Companies of two Ultima Founding Primaris Dark Angel Successor chapters.

 

 

At least initially, an Ultima Founding DA successor chapter is going to be founded with exactly the same equipment as any other Ultima Founding chapter. So they're going to assign their "Bladeguard Veteran" equipment to their 1st Company - because that's how all Ultima Founding chapters do things.

 

 

Once they make contact with the Dark Angels themselves, and the Dark Angels tell their Chapter Masters about the whole Fallen Angel thing, they might start to modify things, to mimic the Dark Angel way of doing things. But unless it's retconned that all Primaris Chapters have had "Primaris Terminator Armour" from the moment they were founded, it would appear that the Angels of Defiance, and Blades of Vengeance, will have Bladeguard Veterans in their 1st Company instead of Terminators, just like the other Ultima Founding chapters.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

Maybe. But alternatively, "Bladeguard Deathwing" cover the 1st Companies of two Ultima Founding Primaris Dark Angel Successor chapters.

That could be the way you do it, but I'll think they'll leave that unaddressed, just like those were in our codex in 8E with no mention of how the 1st or 2nd companies worked or anything about how they're organized.

 

If you wanted to play those, you could paint it that way as sort of a transition to the Unforgiven chapter layout, but I don't think it will be in the book. Similarly for Space Wolves, there's the Wolfspear successor chapter and it's completely up in the wind how that is organized, that is entirely unaddressed.

 

I would really like them to spend some time on how the DA/SW Primaris successors work though. I would like to do a small force of those sometime.

Edited May 27, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Iron Lord]

"Moving all bikers into one company" is easier than "creating an all-terminator Company when your men don't fit into Terminator armour, and you don't currently have any anyway".

 

I figure that the Angels of Defiance Ravenwing will come into being right after Azrael gives them the guidelines, but, being pragmatic, they won't (assuming Primaris Terminator Armour doesn't come out for a long time) bother with the whole "1st Company must deploy in Terminator armour". thing - because they know that, with the kit they're starting out with, it isn't practical.

[WrathOfTheLion]

It could be a gradual reorganization for them, maybe that's how they roll with it. They may just mention that their 2nd Company is now RW and that they're adopting the Unforgiven organization, and then just not talk about the 1st Company.

[Berzul]

"Moving all bikers into one company" is easier than "creating an all-terminator Company when your men don't fit into Terminator armour, and you don't currently have any anyway".

 

That is kind of the point, in the end. Keeping the DW as "only terminators" is becoming harder and harder to manage, lore-wise and business-wise.

 

More and more we read of how non-terminator clad Primaris warriores are getting inducted into the Inner Circle, and it makes sense. Terminator armor is a Firstborn/Legacy army piece of gear, and so far, there has been no room for it in the Space Marines, with no signs of a replacement or adaptation of said suits of armor for them.

 

I feel that GW has written themselves into a bit of a corner here, and I think that the easier solution for them is to slooooooowly write out a path about how more and more Deathwing are no longer using Terminator Armor. Reshaping the company and the army lore, as it evolves alongside the general lore for the game.

 

I truly believe that, even if these models are not the new Deathwing, some other new models will be, and the Deathwing will evolve into a new configuration that is no longer Terminator-Only.

Edited May 27, 2020 by Berzul

[Galloway]

The WD article and most recent reveal made clear Primaris are coming to the DW and RW, but my guess (hope) is that it would still be in "thematic" ways- Gravis armor for DW, on the new bikes for RW. I think the Bladeguard will be equivalents for veterans in 3rd-9th companies.

 

Primaris bikes (+future speeders and aircraft) fit pretty smoothly into the RW- mechanics and operation are the same. Issue though is that Primaris are pretty close to direct replacements for oldmarines. I think the bigger challenge is DW. Gravis is superficially like terminator armor (big & heavy), but doesn't come with the teleport strike ability, which is a big part of the terminator/DW theme IMO. That difference plus different loadouts/squad sizes helps differentiate them better from oldmarines, but makes them more different thematically as well. Don't know if it's better to give DW primaris some sort of teleport strike ability to maintain DW theme or not.

[Skywrath]

I agree with Berzul and his assessment on whether these Bladeguard Veterans will be in the Deathwing - there already have been an instance happening before, when a primaris joins the ranks.

 

Secondly, the bigger question we should be asking ourselves is this - are there any more chambers to be revealed after this one? I think this is what it boils down to. If there are more chambers, then yes, I suspect we can entertain the notion there might be primaris terminators, which will join the ranks of the Deathwing. If not, then well, here we are, these are our new replacements. However, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a variant of these models, but with Gravis armor. As I said previously, lore-wise Mark X armor is supposed to be interchangeable, it only makes sense there might be new models with that. I may be overly presumptive in assuming that, but I wonder whether the Deathwing in the future will stop wearing Terminator armor, due to a change in leadership - i.e the Lion returning, and decreeing so. After-all, being asleep (see Gulliman) for 10,000 years, you have plenty of time to reflect on your mistakes, and adapt accordingly.

 

One of the other folks on here mentioned about the removal of the Crux Terminatus from Gravis armor, and I believe I got a response for that. With the (admittedly) not-so-recent developments, the technology of the Imperium is seeing a seismic shift in progression. It only makes sense that it was removed from the newer models (but not retconned), as it reflects that nature. Even the art-style is shifting from Gothic to something.. retro-futuristic I want to say? (Sorry art-styles aren't my strong point). Either way, fully prepared to eat my words, if proven wrong.

[Master Sheol]

DO you people realized that GRAVIS armour is a PA variant and not a TDA?

And about REMOVAL of the Crux terminatus from Gravis armour do you realize that there were never a crux terminatus on gravis cause gravis was issued to line troops and not to veterans

[Skywrath]

DO you people realized that GRAVIS armour is a PA variant and not a TDA?

And about REMOVAL of the Crux terminatus from Gravis armour do you realize that there were never a crux terminatus on gravis cause gravis was issued to line troops and not to veterans

 

I think they do. 

 

However, slight problem in that logic, if gravis armor was issued to line troops, then why are there specifically MASTERS in Gravis armor? Because, last I checked, masters were still considered veterans ;p

 

Side-note, but a fun mental musing; at this point, they should implement an option on the forum, under what factions do you play, (seeing how we have a pretty big divide on this matter): 

 

1. Dark Angel Firstborn

2. Dark Angel Primaris

Edited May 28, 2020 by Skywrath

[Gederas]

DO you people realized that GRAVIS armour is a PA variant and not a TDA?

And about REMOVAL of the Crux terminatus from Gravis armour do you realize that there were never a crux terminatus on gravis cause gravis was issued to line troops and not to veterans

This.

 

Jes Goodwin flat-out said in the Voxcast episode where he was talking about the (irl) creation of Primaris Marines that Gravis Armour is NOT "Primaris Terminator Armour".

 

We haven't seen Primaris Terminators yet.

 

Regarding Bladeguard.... Yeah, I think they'd be like Company Veterans, and not Deathwing (the company). I COULD see the Sergeant being a Deathwing member though.

[Master Sheol]

 

 

DO you people realized that GRAVIS armour is a PA variant and not a TDA?

And about REMOVAL of the Crux terminatus from Gravis armour do you realize that there were never a crux terminatus on gravis cause gravis was issued to line troops and not to veterans

I think they do.

 

However, slight problem in that logic, if gravis armor was issued to line troops, then why are there specifically MASTERS in Gravis armor? Because, last I checked, masters were still considered veterans ;p

 

Side-note, but a fun mental musing; at this point, they should implement an option on the forum, under what factions do you play, (seeing how we have a pretty big divide on this matter):

 

1. Dark Angel Firstborn

2. Dark Angel Primaris

Why there is masters in gravis armour?

For the same reason they wear phobos or tacticus variants of the mkX armour

Because you don't go naked to war ;)

 

Gravis like Tacticus and Phobos are Just variants of the mkX Power Armour and to be correct only one mkX Power Armour exists and it is modular and you can swap the various components to have the different patterns.

So the Master you were talking about One day can set his mkX armour as gravis and tomorrow he can set it as phobos or tacticus according to his needs

 

Following your statement DW should go to PA cause Masters wear PA too :D

 

P.S.: there is no DA firstborn and DA primaris but a single DA faction were all units work together ;)

Edited May 28, 2020 by Master Sheol

[Chaplain Raeven]

They're just the new veterans, the Primaris version of our robed dudes. Been through the Deathwing, went back to power armour. Primaris Terminators are for the next edition!

Side-note, but a fun mental musing; at this point, they should implement an option on the forum, under what factions do you play, (seeing how we have a pretty big divide on this matter):

1. Dark Angel Firstborn

2. Dark Angel Primaris

Get that heresy out of here! We are one Legion!

Edited May 28, 2020 by Chaplain Grey Raven

[Skywrath]

They're just the new veterans, the Primaris version of our robed dudes. Been through the Deathwing, went back to power armour. Primaris Terminators are for the next edition!

Side-note, but a fun mental musing; at this point, they should implement an option on the forum, under what factions do you play, (seeing how we have a pretty big divide on this matter):

1. Dark Angel Firstborn

2. Dark Angel Primaris

Get that heresy out of here! We are one Legion!

Is exactly what I will say, after the events of Pandorax unfold in their own time.. *powers up Nemesis Force Halberd*

Back on topic, are the firstborn Company Veterans officially stated to be in the Deathwing?

Edited May 28, 2020 by Skywrath

[Berzul]

They're just the new veterans, the Primaris version of our robed dudes. Been through the Deathwing, went back to power armour. Primaris Terminators are for the next edition!

Side-note, but a fun mental musing; at this point, they should implement an option on the forum, under what factions do you play, (seeing how we have a pretty big divide on this matter):

1. Dark Angel Firstborn

2. Dark Angel Primaris

Get that heresy out of here! We are one Legion!

My Successors are no part of your legion, so, lets not be hasty here.

[Brother Tyler]

Typically, the Company Veterans are not members of the Deathwing. They are simply veteran members of their respective companies that have been gathered into a single squad.

Each company from the 3rd to the 9th has a complement of Veterans. These experienced warriors often form into elite squads for single missions, or for the duration of specific campaigns, but while so assembled they fight with complete surety and mutual trust. It is from such close-knit brotherhoods that the warriors of the Deathwing are chosen...

So GW has an open path to giving the Unforgiven Chapters Primaris veterans without having to change the composition of the [all-TDA] Deathwing.

 

As far as Gravis armour goes, we all get that it isn't a true replacement for TDA. If GW ever fully replaces the legacy Adeptus Astartes with Primaris, though, among the issues they'll have to resolve is whether or not the composition of the Deathwing changes. If GW sticks with the concept of the current all-TDA Deathwing and evolves it for a pure Primaris construct, they'll need some sort of special armour. At present, Gravis armour looks like the closest thing we have as a replacement. GW could always find some other replacement for TDA, however (and judging by the trends, it would be a solution that applies across all Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes, not just an Unforgiven thing).

 

As the speculation in this discussion, shows, though, it's always possible that GW might decide to evolve the Unforgiven Chapters so that the Deathwing changes from all-TDA to a mixed company such as is found in most other Chapters. If they do that, they can get rid of the Company Veterans, replacing them with Sternguard and Vanguard. The Bladeguard will likely be an indicator of where GW decides to go with this decision. Some of us believe that GW will stick to the current all-TDA Deathwing (i.e., no Bladeguard), while others think that the Bladeguard might be incorporated into the Deathwing.