Are DA Bladeguard likely to be part of the 1st Company?

[Gederas]

What's next? Primaris Sanguinary Guard?  Primaris Wulfen?

Both of those are possible, especially the former, as seeing by the end of Devastation of Baal there's ONE Sanguinary Guard member left :lol:

Primaris Wulfen need not be a thing as Wulfen were designed with Primaris in mind (per the designers), so any Wulfen model can represent a Firstborn or a Primaris :lol:

 

I also feels this need to be said.

 

Guys, we get it. Change is wrong-bad, but the fact is this: It's been 100+ years in-lore since Primaris were introduced. There's no reason for Primaris to not be in the Ravenwing/Deathwing organization aside from people Out-of-Universe wanting to just hate on Primaris. You can dislike them, you can not use them, that's all fine and good.

 

But this reaction is just toxic and above all, shameful. We've already had at least one B&C member quit Dark Angels because of the Dark Angels community treatment of Primaris and people who like them.*

 

Let me use an example: War of Secrets is an example of the toxicity of the Dark Angels community as an official canon book. It was panned, but how the book depicts both the Primaris and Firstborn Dark Angels is pretty close to how this community has acted. To the point where it's jarring compared to the canon of how Dark Angels have been depicted. Secretive, reclusive and untrusting, yes. But that book makes Dark Angels look like a bunch of inept fools at best, blatant Heretics at worst.

 

We're better than that.

 

ADB said it best: At the core of it, Primaris are just Marines. Bigger, a little more powerful, and newer, but at the end of the day, they're Astartes.

 

They're battle-brothers, genetic brothers no less to the Chapters that have them. Stop treating them any differently and instead, act like the Lion: they're another weapon in the arsenal, another tool with tactical use.

 

I'm going to continue building my Dark Angels as I do, which is using all the tools in my arsenal as a cohesive whole, and not ignoring some because I have a childish reaction towards them.

 

 

 

 

#takeastand

 

 

 

 

 

*Or possibly one specific forum member, I'm not sure. Actually, I think he might have quit the hobby entirely, as he hasn't been on the forum in several months now....

[Brother Tyler]

This discussion is about the Bladeguard being in the Deathwing. Discussion of other Chapters should be taken up in other forums.

The Deathwing [company] being solely Terminators has been one of the key distinguishing aspects of the Unforgiven since they were re-created in 2nd edition.

Oddly, I find that I'm not bothered by the prospect of the Deathwing evolving to include members that don't wear TDA. To be sure, I would have preferred if GW had provided the Primaris with some analog to TDA. I'm beginning to wonder if that's even in the cards now - perhaps we won't see a Primaris analog to TDA and all that the Primaris will have will be Gravis as the heavier version of their armour. Of course, it might must be a matter of time - that GW hasn't gotten around to the Primaris version of TDA. In the meantime, 100+ years is plenty of time for the Unforgiven to learn to trust their Primaris battle-brothers and to elevate some of them to the Deathwing. And since there's not any TDA for them, it seems only right that they'll perform their duties in power armour. If GW ever gets around to Primaris TDA, we might see the lore de-evolved again, back to pure TDA Deathwing (whether legacy or Primaris). In the meantime, anyone that doesn't want to use Primaris in their Deathwing is certainly free to exercise that decision. And those that want to use Primaris in their Deathwing now have an official way to do that. To each his own.

To me, while the pure TDA Deathwing has been one of the idiosyncrasies of the Unforgiven since 2nd edition, it hasn't been the defining aspect of the Unforgiven. Frankly, it hasn't really been a hugely important issue to me. Dark Angels players have long complained about how the all-TDA Deathwing wasn't competitive. Well, now Dark Angels players have options. My personal preference would be to give the Primaris [in all Chapters] access to a TDA analog, allowing GW to return the Deathwing to its all-TDA version and move the power armoured Primaris veteran models to replace/augment their legacy counterparts. If that doesn't happen and the Bladeguard will remain a permanent element of the Deathwing, I'll shrug my shoulders, think happy thoughts, and live with it. It's only a game, after all.

 

The defining characteristic of the Unforgiven to me has always been the Hunt for the Fallen. As long as GW preserves the Hunt for the Fallen, I imagine I can live with whatever changes they decide to impose on the Unforgiven Chapters.

My understanding from the apocrypha I see on the Internet is that GW has been leaning away from a lot of the Chapter-specific units that we have grown to enjoy since 2nd/3rd edition. With the Primaris, the effort (according to the apocrypha) has been to make the new units available to every Chapter (the lone exception being the Grey Knights, for reasons already being discussed in that forum). The more a propo discussion in this forum should really be about what is going to happen to the Ravenwing.

[Berzul]

Its all a matter of evolution. You can adapt to the new models through whatever headcannon that you can come up with, which can provide you with a satisfying explanation to why these guys are there, or you can not use them at all for as long as you can.

 

I think there is merit in trying to #takeastand because, it will always suck when the game you love gets discontinued. Specially one you have invested so much time, money, effort and love to collect.

 

I also do not see this as Primaris Bashing.

 

I think the positions for most are clear. We seem to be beyond the whole "get these newfangled Cawl-marines out of here!" phase. This seems rather the innevitable and natural process of starting to try and rationalize the state of the game.

 

Primaris are no longer the same thing we used to see them as. We have come to understand they are the new standard for the game. That the game itself is not what it used to be. We have come to the point in which we are learning ways through which we can still enjoy "this" game, like we enjoyed the "old" game.

 

For some, this IS possible. For others, not so much.

 

Taking a stand in trying to retain that little semblence of the game we loved, is not necessarily a bad thing. And it is not something I read in these posts as the same opposition to primaris that used to exist. It is the attempt at the construction of the head cannon; that personal lore and justification, that allow us to stay in the game despite it changing in ways so fundamental, that the thing we loved is no longer what we fell in love with.

 

EDIT: In the end, we should not seek to shame those who fell in love with what the game was, and cannot love what the game now is in the same way. There is a dimension to this that goes beyond looking at the army frol the perspective of a character IN the fiction (like the Lion), and that rather stands at the POV of the player. The human being, in the real world, that invested years and resources into something, and must now come to terms with that something going away for good.

 

Again, this time the topic has not yet become a bashing of Primaris like in older times. Rather, the obvious evolution of said conversation, where now we all understand the game is not ever being what it once was, and everyone must try and find their own way of getting joy from what the game is, through whatever headcannon they can create that provides them the necessary explanations.

 

Wherever in that spectrum.one cannot do that, then they must #takeastand and try to preserve the game for them as best they can... Or quit what the game has become, for good.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Berzul

[WrathOfTheLion]

I do not really have an issue with the Deathwing including non-terminators in its ranks. The new Bladeguard are fairly similar to the Deathwing Companions being added in HH. They are also similar to the Victrix Guard, who also performed a similar role. To me, it seems like they're moving the DA chapter to line up with the DA legion from 30k as they flush out the old lore there. Perhaps they are changing its organization back to the First Legion organization. I need them to publish Book 9 already to have more knowledge on that.

I also do not think that the firstborn marine range will be removed. The Primaris have brought in a lot of new players, and are something where GW has encouraged many people to purchase anew their force. In my mind, the reverse could then be true, where GW then tries to get the newer players to purchase a second army going back to the firstborn in some way. If I can think of some way to separate people from their money using that, then I think GW is thinking of it as well  .

In general, I think we should wait and see. If GW continues to publish a separate codex for DA, then I think they will eventually explore back to unique units.

Edited June 22, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[jaxom]

I think there is merit in trying to #takeastand because, it will always suck when the game you love gets discontinued. Specially one you have invested so much time, money, effort and love to collect.

 

I also do not see this as Primaris Bashing.

 

*SNIP*

 

EDIT: In the end, we should not seek to shame those who fell in love with what the game was, and cannot love what the game now is in the same way. 

 

My perspective has been that those who like Primaris have received the short end of the stick more often, but it's a subtle thing because it's a matter staking out a claim and subconsciously making those who are not 100% in line uncomfortable. It's more common in Star Wars or Star Trek - a fan of say, the prequels or Star Trek: Enterprise, constantly hearing/seeing what they enjoyed being the butt of everyone else's jokes or vitriol. That fan doesn't need the community to continue enjoying what they love and now have an active reason to avoid the community.

 

Every time threads have posts expounding how this or that is what make the Dark Angels what they are risks such alienation. Since the release of Primaris, too often that has revolved around the Deathwing -especially in regards to Terminator armour-  and the Ravenwing. "Here's all this history and lore interpretation on why Deathwing should never be anything but Terminator armoured! GW give us Primaris TDA or leave Primaris out of the Deathwing!" Ignoring how there's evidence that goes in both directions, such statements will usually have a greater impact than ones like, "Primaris are inevitable, get used to it." Both are not productive, but only one comes with a sense of owning identity; that if one disagrees then one does not truly know or get the Dark Angels. 

[Berzul]

Except, explanatioms by GW seem to come down to "Well, yeah, these guys are part of the Deathwing now", which is just not enough to some. So, the discussion DOES become "You better get used to them", in the end.

 

The lore seems to be severly in need of a story event that TRULY moves this along. Psychic Awakening could have been just that. Saddly, it was not.

 

If the novels have truly given us reasons deep enough to solve the breach between primaris and firstborn, then we have not read the books well, it seems.

[Fajita Fan]

Guys, we’re just reacting to many years of first company lore being changed. I have an easy to build Primaris army (they’re going to be BA with a silly paint scheme  ) so it’s not about hating Primaris it’s about disagreeing with them simply being shoehorned into an existing formation - quite possibly my favorite formation in all of 40k. Dark Angels can have an elite Primaris formation, I just disagree with them being part of the first company who are traditionally a teleporting force used against the most dangerous of foes wearing the heaviest armor and wielding the biggest weapons available. 

[Angel of Solitude]

If the novels have truly given us reasons deep enough to solve the breach between primaris and firstborn, then we have not read the books well, it seems.

At the end of War of Secrets, we see the senior members of the Inner Circle understand that the Primaris mind wipe is no longer 100% effective, and so in response to Primaris members now having permanent knowledge of the Fallen, we see the creation of the Circle Primaris. Now admittedly, we haven’t had any further addition to this lore, but the sentiment is nevertheless there: the Inner Circle are finding that they can no longer take the position of refusing to trust the Primaris. Additionally, the Primaris marines are demonstrating themselves to be extremely capable fighters.

 

There is also the story of the first Deathwing Primaris member. Recommended for elevation on the back of extraordinary heroics, let us not forget that all applicants must survive an psychic examination by Ezekiel. If there was any question of loyalty and being able to keep the secrets of the Inner Circle, then Brother Apharan would no doubt have taken a heavy bolt pistol to his own head.

 

The Test of Faith once again supports this idea of the failure of the mind-wiping process somewhat forcing the hands of the Inner Circle. It also articulated the division that currently exists in the Inner Circle around how to treat the Primaris, with those opposing doing so only because they are Primaris, and not taking into account any battle heroics or other favourable behaviour.

 

Furthermore, the Codex itself covers a long period of time, but the essential narrative is: Dark Angels and their successors suffer considerable loses at the hands of Tzeentch, and large numbers of Primaris reinforcements are the only way to quickly rebuild the strength of the combined Unforgiven.

 

So from my view, I believe the lore in existence weaves this thread of the Dark Angels being initially distrustful of all Primaris, but pragmatically finding themselves having to trust them - they have no choice, both due to the deteriorating state of the Galaxy, and the failure of the mind-wipe, which had previously allowed the Dark Angels to use Primaris to hunt the Fallen.

 

From here, it is personally for me not a difficult stretch to think that an increasing number of Primaris marines would follow Apharan in demonstrating battle prowess and unswerving loyalty to the chapter, and be promoted to the Deathwing. There are at least two Primaris Chapter Masters, and all Primaris Librarians are members of the Deathwing.

 

Do I feel we’re missing one last book to tie things up? Perhaps, but the 9th Ed codex will also provide us this detail. Also, for me the Deathwing is not about 100% Terminator Armour: it’s about the secrets that are revealed to members of the Deathwing; it’s about their role in the hunt for the Fallen; it’s about how even a member of the Deathwing doesn’t yet know all the secrets of the chapter; it’s about being the elite fighting unit in the Chapter - be it Firstborn or Primaris; it’s about being an unquestionably loyal son of the Lion, regardless of whether your or Martian, Terran, or Caliban origin.

 

What I would say though, a full company of Terminator Armour is a reflection of the Dark Angel’s legacy as being the 1st Legion, having an extensive armoury, and having a Terran instead of Martian influence. The same is true for the Dark Talon, Dark Shroud, LSV. I truly hope that we start to see some of this unique tech appear in some Primaris applications. I think this is hinted at in the lore, and is essential for the Dark Angels to not become just another Primaris Space Marine chapter.

[Skywrath]

My thoughts are the same - as evolution dictates, after a period of darkness, there is a period of hope. We are in that period, with Roboute back, and the primaris introduced. As sherlock said: "Sentimentality is a defect found in the losing side", it would be foolish to blind ourselves to the possibilities of a newer and better line of marines, even if it plays into GW's grubby hands. Not to mention, the Dark Angels were the legion that the Emperor relied on to absolutely destroy others, having no qualms in how it's been done, while being given access to older, experimental weaponry. Why would we willingly turn down a weapon that is more efficient at killing things, when the notion of doing that, goes against the principles of the old Legion?

 

As most of the DA know, I'm fairly pro-primaris, but that doesn't mean I don't understand why people would be reluctant to drop their firstborn units. There was a time where the Deathwing fought purely in Terminator Armor, but now that time has passed - going off the stat-sheet from 8th, all forms of primaris armor is equal to the toughness of terminator armor. Whether that applies in lore, for me, is yet to be seen, but the First Legion was never one for sentiment. Like the Lion, they were fairly future orientated in their outlook, which means, from a lore perspective, the Lion would be for the primaris as well. I'd also like to point out that the reason most Dark Angels in lore are against primaris, is because they suspect the others will find about our brothers in black. Which means that if that issue never existed, then the lore of the Dark Angels would be more welcoming to said primaris. 

[Corswain]

The whole problem will be solved for me if GW bring out Primaris TDA. Not Gravis (I'm not a fan) but full blown rescaled terminators. Everyone wins! Who knows, one day we may get it.

[G8Keeper]

I must say I'm on the Primaris side for all the above mentioned reasons akin to the "100 years, plenty of time" rationale.  However, it's YOUR collection/game, do as you like with it, that's the crux of the hobby for me and if you don't, it just won't be fun for you.

[Fajita Fan]

The whole problem will be solved for me if GW bring out Primaris TDA. Not Gravis (I'm not a fan) but full blown rescaled terminators. Everyone wins! Who knows, one day we may get it.

I thought gravis were the new terminators when I saw them and I’m not terribly sure what to do with the easy to build captain I have. And don’t we already have a unit like these Bladeguard in the first company - don’t Knights basically serve that role? I feel like knights got a buff in 8th since their weapon seems better.  Granted a sword is fluffier than a mace...

[jaxom]

 

The whole problem will be solved for me if GW bring out Primaris TDA. Not Gravis (I'm not a fan) but full blown rescaled terminators. Everyone wins! Who knows, one day we may get it.

I thought gravis were the new terminators when I saw them and I’m not terribly sure what to do with the easy to build captain I have. And don’t we already have a unit like these Bladeguard in the first company - don’t Knights basically serve that role? I feel like knights got a buff in 8th since their weapon seems better.  Granted a sword is fluffier than a mace...

 

 

Gravis certainly fills the same concept as Terminator armour: a more heavily armoured option for putting where the fighting is thickest or deadliest. Deathwing Knights hit harder with slightly less AP and can Teleport Strike, but don't have a relatively inexpensive transport option (compared to the Impulsor). We also don't know if Bladeguard are going to have a bodyguard rule; many people have been hoping/wishlisting that they will. There's also the big question of wounds. If Bladeguard get 3W then they can survive OC plasma and autocannons better than Deathwing Knights. If Bladeguard have 3 attacks as veterans then they'll have more attacks than Deathwing Knights.

 

And don't get me started on the weapon fiasco... though I am now motivated to write up the last entry for my Horus Heresy Dark Angels thread now.

[Fajita Fan]

Very fair, I’m certain that new Primaris units will pretty much always be better than their current variants and I’m sure their points will make them more attractive. For purists like me it won’t matter much as I’ll be using terminators exclusively for my first company.

 

What if a character like Belial becomes a Primaris?

[Brother_Darius]

What ever the motivation, be it going Primaris or just a update......what ever the reason

Our  I.C. model range needs an update!  Belial, Azreal, Zeke, etc....

Edited June 22, 2020 by Brother_Darius

[jaxom]

What if a character like Belial becomes a Primaris?

 

Gav Thorpe's books set up Belial and Asmodai as two of the more zealous, conservative members of the Inner Circle. If it were me, I'd use that to have those two led into some sort of trap set by Marbas and then dying to buy time for the Deathwing to get teleported out after taking ridiculous casualties. The teleportation retreat means the wholesale loss of many suits of Terminator armour. The need to replenish the first company on campaign means there isn't time to adjust Terminator armour to Primaris size and so elevated Primaris continue to use the armour they have. The Belial and Asmodai models become generic Master of the Deathwing in Terminator Armour and Interrogator-Chaplain. After a number of failures regarding Primaris Chaplains and the Test of Faith, Sapphon decides to cross to the Rubicon. A model and data slate for the Dark Angel Master of Sanctity would give us a 2 Litany recitation model. Primaris Interrogator-Chaplains end up all being Ascended.

 

Azrael is a bit of sticky wicket. I think his status is very much one of personal choice. I'd love to see a "grand strategist" posed Primaris Azrael with a resculpted Watcher holding a truly primarch-scaled Lion Helm. Either that or they need to start planting seeds for a successor because none of the other current characters jump out to me as chapter master material.

 

What ever the motivation, be it going Primaris or just a update......what ever the reason

Our  I.C. model range needs an update!  Belial, Azreal, Zeke, etc....

 

I agree, but it must be hard to guess which characters will be accepted as Primaris and which will be accepted as getting replaced (I think it's safe to say that any new marine character sculpts are going to be Primaris).

Edited June 22, 2020 by jaxom

[Fajita Fan]

One thing I will give GW is their ability to name things.  "Bladeguard" is a simple but cool name, far more characterful than "Deathwing Knights" IMHO.  I really wish DK had swords or halberds with shields and were named "Deathwing Bladeguard."  

[Interrogator Stobz]

Mine have swords ;)

[Angel of Solitude]

@jaxom a big confrontation with Marbas - or maybe even Luther - is the only way that GW could rationalise getting rid of one of the major names Unforgiven characters.

 

The variation that I had in my head is that both Azrael and Belial are mortally wounded, both attempt to cross the Rubicon, but only Belial succeeds, and becomes the new Primaris Supreme Grand Master - this is purely on the basis that in the lore I’ve read somewhere that Belial is suggested as being a natural successor. You could then leave the Grand Master of the Deathwing unnamed, giving people the choice of a Primaris or Firstborn successor. However, I don’t see this as being practical from a lore perspective, given how pivotal the role is.

 

At some point though, we have to also factor in the return of the Lion...

[JJD]

I have come to terms with an all primaris future. The existence of primaris bikes keeps me hopeful for primaris terminators one day.

 

That said all I really want is for the 1st and 2nd Chapters is for the units in them to be unique as the are now.

 

By this is mean Terminators are unique to the DW not just painted white

 

So if blade guard are unique I prefer that to aggressors painted white.

[Fajita Fan]

They cannot take the rules for power armor marines out of the codices, what they did to Empire players in AoS is terribly unfair but to just Squat the millions of dollars worth of power and terminator armor models we own to get us to buy all new Primaris models would be the worst possible decision they could make. I’d buy a resin printer, switch to Vallejo paints, and download my books.  
 

I can see releasing only Primaris in the future but they must keep the rules and points values for our existing models (right...? ). It would’ve made sense to me for Primaris to form successor chapters so we don’t have things like this retconning of DA 1st company just to sell models. New paint schemes, new heroes, new conflicts, etc.

[G8Keeper]

They cannot take the rules for power armor marines out of the codices, what they did to Empire players in AoS is terribly unfair but to just Squat the millions of dollars worth of power and terminator armor models we own to get us to buy all new Primaris models would be the worst possible decision they could make. I’d buy a resin printer, switch to Vallejo paints, and download my books.  

 

I can see releasing only Primaris in the future but they must keep the rules and points values for our existing models (right...? ). It would’ve made sense to me for Primaris to form successor chapters so we don’t have things like this retconning of DA 1st company just to sell models. New paint schemes, new heroes, new conflicts, etc.

 

As much as none of us wants it, in the grim darkness of the far future, they very likely will.  Legends will still exist though I'd imagine, they'll all be there.

[Berzul]

I insist that the process has started, and it is through rules.

 

GW must know not to repeat the mistakes of AoS. They won't take an army you want to play, away from you. Instead, they will make you not want to play it, first.

 

Firstborn are, and will continue to be, less cost-effective than Primaris. They have, and will continue to have in an ever increasing way, worse stats, worse weapons, worse special rules. They have less stratagems, and will get less over time, until all the abilities for the army are for Primaris.

 

Then, when firstborn are too expensive in points, too underpowered in stats and gear, and too lacking in stratagems or abilities, they will start passing into Legends. Where they will remain, for good.

[Skywrath]

I insist that the process has started, and it is through rules.

 

GW must know not to repeat the mistakes of AoS. They won't take an army you want to play, away from you. Instead, they will make you not want to play it, first.

 

Firstborn are, and will continue to be, less cost-effective than Primaris. They have, and will continue to have in an ever increasing way, worse stats, worse weapons, worse special rules. They have less stratagems, and will get less over time, until all the abilities for the army are for Primaris.

 

Then, when firstborn are too expensive in points, too underpowered in stats and gear, and too lacking in stratagems or abilities, they will start passing into Legends. Where they will remain, for good.

 

Actually, sorry for coming across as negative, but considering the company has a reputation of being called Greed Workshop, I think that will very well still be the case, as much I don't want that to occur. Especially if you consider that they raised prices just as soon as Nurgle's plague died down. For them it will always be money > everything else.

 

Onto a more positive note: I've read that some GW (or other gaming stores) allow you to play the table-top with older editions in mind. Because of this, I don't expect firstborn to properly "die" in the true sense of the word. If the new changes matter, than you always play say 8th edition with the stats from 9th, if you were so inclined. Although, judging how I'm still new, I'm not exactly sure whether this is truly the case.. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Skywrath

[Brother Tyler]

Folks, this discussion is about the Bladeguard in the Deathwing.

 

Discussion about the future of legacy Adeptus Astartes rightly belongs in the + SPACE MARINES + forum.