Are DA Bladeguard likely to be part of the 1st Company?

[Berzul]

Yeah, we have strayed too far off topic. Sorry, Brother Tyler.

[jaxom]

Looks like the heads are separate for easy swapping (with hooded heads, for example). I can't be certain, but it looks like the shields have the forearm on their back and the forearm connects to the elbow on another piece (the torso). Careful trimming should work to get the shield off the Bladeguard and the arm off a Deathwing storm shield piece.

[Varizel]

It looks good, but honestly i felt that this should replace Company Veteran, while Aggressor/Inceptor should be shifted to First Company due that Gravis at least looks heavier.... sure Gravis doesn't go all the way with Deathwing MO of teleporting strikes and whatnot, but at least it covers the heavily armored MO part. This model even breaks the fluff they themselves wrote in White Dwarf claiming that the Primaris Deathwing wears the heaviest MK. X armor.

 

It just weird that we lost the status of the only Chapter with its First Company wearing all TDA (or Primaris equivalent), kinda makes you wondering why they didn't do this when they got Sternguard and Vanguard veterans out .... but then again, that's the period of time where GW told us to beg for your opponent to give you 3++ Storm shield because it might give you an unfair advantage.

 

They got white scars for bikes companies, but nobody are doing a full Heavy Armored soldiers like Deathwing did. The only one i can think off that can fit their guys with TDA are Grey Knights.

 

Perhaps this is the aggressive move that Azrael takes due to The Rock being invaded, Darkmoor, Stygia, and Sortarius, but maan it felt marketing gimmick to me at the moment. I hope i don't have to buy a Novel just to get a fluff explanation for this move, and hope this is elaborated in the next codex we get and not given a paragraph or two dismissal treatment like "The Deathwing sorely needs reinforcement, and take Primaris they can trust. Due to pressing need of service, they wear whatever armor they felt like according to mission 'cuz Dark Angels are tactically brilliant like that, so just take Veteran Primaris as Deathwing and shut your yap".

 

Just venting i guess.

[jaxom]

I won't be surprised to see many people painting the armour green and the robes bone. Deathwing veterans seconded to a battle company; trading in their heavier armour for Tacticus/Crusader pattern armour. Or just straight up - they're Company Veterans and will never get used with any Stratagem that requires the Deathwing or Inner Circle keywords.

[Master Sheol]

I won't be surprised to see many people painting the armour green and the robes bone. Deathwing veterans seconded to a battle company; trading in their heavier armour for Tacticus/Crusader pattern armour. Or just straight up - they're Company Veterans and will never get used with any Stratagem that requires the Deathwing or Inner Circle keywords.

So you will pay more points to have better rules and dedicated stratagems?  +++ CUT IT OUT, WE ACCEPT ALL OPINIONS HERE IN THE ROCK AND WE DON'T DERIDE OTHER FRATER FOR THEM+++

 

I really hope that GW will make all firstborn legends very soon to take a bowl of popcorn and enjoy the mass hitery of people like these (and i own an entire battle company of DA plus a lot of DW and RW so it's not good for me if GW will phase out the firstborn)

Edited June 23, 2020 by Interrogator Stobz

[Berzul]

 

 

I won't be surprised to see many people painting the armour green and the robes bone. Deathwing veterans seconded to a battle company; trading in their heavier armour for Tacticus/Crusader pattern armour. Or just straight up - they're Company Veterans and will never get used with any Stratagem that requires the Deathwing or Inner Circle keywords.

So you will pay more points to have better rules and dedicated stratagems? +++SNIP+++

 

I really hope that GW will make all firstborn legends very soon to take a bowl of popcorn and enjoy the mass hitery of people like these (and i own an entire battle company of DA plus a lot of DW and RW so it's not good for me if GW will phase out the firstborn)

+++Unnecessary reply+++

 

Plus, what @Jaxom said is he expects people to do this, not that HE will do it. And, even if he DID do it, what is that to anyone else? It's his army, isn't it?

 

In fact, to be honest, I kinda like the idea of Deathwing Veterans moving down to the Battle Companies to lead them, and taking these armor and weapons as they take on the position of the company's veterans, very appealing from a lore-building point of view. Would be nice to see the Deathwing retain the TDA composition of the COMPANY, but to have their members spread out a bit into the Battle Companies through these new roles, to carry on their secretive duties across the rest of the legion army, under the careful watch of the Inner Circle.

 

... It seems like a very interesting compromise of "tradition vs progress". I would definitely go this route, if I played Dark Angels proper instead of non-Hunt affiliated successors.

Edited June 23, 2020 by Interrogator Stobz

[Interrogator Stobz]

 

In fact, to be honest, I kinda like the idea of Deathwing Veterans moving down to the Battle Companies to lead them, and taking these armor and weapons as they take on the position of the company's veterans, very appealing from a lore-building point of view. Would be nice to see the Deathwing retain the TDA composition of the COMPANY, but to have their members spread out a bit into the Battle Companies through these new roles, to carry on their secretive duties across the rest of the legion army, under the careful watch of the Inner Circle.

 

... It seems like a very interesting compromise of "tradition vs progress". I would definitely go this route, if I played Dark Angels proper instead of non-Hunt affiliated successors.

 

There is plenty of old fluff stating this type of progression; it makes a tonne of sense and looks cool.

Many of my Sgts have Terminator honours and in the DA that means Deathwing Company level knowledge by dint of office. Whilst I now paint them green, back in the murky past of RT and 2nd Ed there were bone parts to their armour.

These new fellas could certainly go down that route in many armies, but that's up to the player ofc.

[Master Sheol]

In 3rd edition codex there was the rule that Vet Sgts in non DW squads could be promoted to DW to gain DW rules

BTW Company veterans are not DW but they are tested to become DW

So if GW stated that Bladeguard are DW if they go  to Battle companies for any reason and they paint their armour green they will not be Comapny Veterans but still DW Bladeguard attached to another company

 

The main point is that GW said that bladeguard ARE DW so in DA they will give them DW rules

We cannot like that and we could use them like normal marines without usign the DW rules (i find crazy doing that though cause if i pay points for some rules i will use them) but the DW keyword will be always there and if one day there will be a rule against DW models we cannot say "hey i painted them green they are not DW"

 

my2cents

[Berzul]

In 3rd edition codex there was the rule that Vet Sgts in non DW squads could be promoted to DW to gain DW rules

BTW Company veterans are not DW but they are tested to become DW

So if GW stated that Bladeguard are DW if they go  to Battle companies for any reason and they paint their armour green they will not be Comapny Veterans but still DW Bladeguard attached to another company

 

The main point is that GW said that bladeguard ARE DW so in DA they will give them DW rules

We cannot like that and we could use them like normal marines without usign the DW rules (i find crazy doing that though cause if i pay points for some rules i will use them) but the DW keyword will be always there and if one day there will be a rule against DW models we cannot say "hey i painted them green they are not DW"

 

my2cents

Its like the opposite to the Successor rules.

 

The rules for successors are like shooting yourself in the foot. You can simply just play them as Dark Angels, in a different color.  So, you don't lose their abilities nor waste CP, but still keep your army looking as you want.

 

Here, you can just play the 1st Company Bladeguard in another company. So, you keep your army looking as you want, by just not using certain abilities or stratagems.

 

Boils down to personal choice.

[jaxom]

In 3rd edition codex there was the rule that Vet Sgts in non DW squads could be promoted to DW to gain DW rules

 

Not to mention, in that same codex, Azrael was explicitly stated to have been a member of the Deathwing Company while concurrently serving as Captain of the Third Company. And the classic Dark Millennium art of a Dark Angel captain in bone and green power armour. 

 

The last time I tried to explain the differentiation between the Deathwing as the first company and the Deathwing as part of the non-codex leadership organization of which the Inner Circle is part I got some pretty nasty responses, so I won't go through it all again. Suffice to say, I think one can stick to Terminator (and Gravis if that's your thing) only for first company squads while still having Deathwing in power armour when they're not acting as part of the first company.

[solarisqc]

 

 

In fact, to be honest, I kinda like the idea of Deathwing Veterans moving down to the Battle Companies to lead them, and taking these armor and weapons as they take on the position of the company's veterans, very appealing from a lore-building point of view. Would be nice to see the Deathwing retain the TDA composition of the COMPANY, but to have their members spread out a bit into the Battle Companies through these new roles, to carry on their secretive duties across the rest of the legion army, under the careful watch of the Inner Circle.

 

... It seems like a very interesting compromise of "tradition vs progress". I would definitely go this route, if I played Dark Angels proper instead of non-Hunt affiliated successors.

 

There is plenty of old fluff stating this type of progression; it makes a tonne of sense and looks cool.

Many of my Sgts have Terminator honours and in the DA that means Deathwing Company level knowledge by dint of office. Whilst I now paint them green, back in the murky past of RT and 2nd Ed there were bone parts to their armour.

These new fellas could certainly go down that route in many armies, but that's up to the player ofc.

 

I start playing in 3rd when we have option to make Veteran sergent member of the Deathwing for 5 pts and we didn't have company veteran. I built my army and lore with that in mind so my hierarchy was and still is:

 

scout<devastator<assault<tactical<sergent<veteran sergent (reserve co)<DEATHWING TerminatoR<DEATHWING Knight<Deathwing vet sergent(co. 3-5 + scout))<DEATHWING Terminator sergent<Knight master<master<grand master/interogator chaplain<Supreme grand master

 

My vision of the DEATHWING compagny is more a training co. for the DA veteran where they will learn how to use Terminator armor, but most important, they learn about the Fallen and gain acces to the first layer of the secret of the DA.

 

When they finish the basic training of the Deathwing (surviving many deployment, become a Knight, learn more secret and learn about leadership), they are ready to be redeploy in the combat compagny as veteran sergent to look at other marine and be able to be the eye of the Deathwing. This way, you have people in knowledge to train/keep an eye on all marine that are deploy by the DA and find future candidate to be include in the DEATHWING co.

 

If you are realy succesful in you job as a Deathwing veteran sergent in battle compagny, you come back in the DEATHWING co. to train the new member of the DEATHWING (you are a Terminator sergent at this point), until you are kill in action or can move up in rank and become a DEATHWING Knight master until you die or become a Master.

 

Now back on topic…

 

With this in mind, my problem with the actual situation in the chapter is the Deathwing don't have an eye on what happen in the primaris squad, I see the Bladeguard as the primaris version of the Deathwing knight, they will act as guard in the rock/fortress monaster, learning about secret of the DA and later be ready to be redeploy as vet sergent for primaris squad in battle company but with the seal of the Deathwing.

 

I see the inclusion of some primaris in the DEATHWING as a way to to keep an eye on them later on and restore all the circles of secrets the DA have to control the chapter.

We don't know the stat of the Bladeguard, but they have what look like iron halo and storm shield, maybe they have master-crafted armor that will give them the 2+ of terminator and will fit as the heaviest mark X armor.

 

I just hope the DA techmarine will included stock teleporter lock for them when we get a new codex, and we are not lock behind a stratagem to teleport our PRIMARIS DEATHWING squad into battle. (and teleport homer in outrider bike).

 

I don't care about firstborn/primaris in the Deathwing/Ravenwing, but i care about the key role they have in our chapter, scout (Ravenwing) and precision strike (Deathwing). It's easy to put a primaris in a teleportarium chamber, but they need to have a way to come back like the beacon included in all terminator armor of the DEATHWING.

Edited June 23, 2020 by solarisqc

[WrathOfTheLion]

I much prefer the bladeguard as Deathwing than the existing gravis units, especially if they do not end up in the Greenwing at all. Even if not as bulky, some sort of knightly unit fits the DW much better than aggressors.

 

I think more importantly for gameplay and lore to some degree, this at least answers the question as to whether primaris successors use the DA codex for gameplay, and how they are organized.

 

This was left completely unaddressed in 8E.

Edited June 24, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Interrogator Stobz]

I agree WotL, the Blade Guard are far more Dark Angel-ish and therefore aesthetically suited to the Deathwing than Gravis.

 

Now whether they are used for Successor options, or to put in the Original Chapter First Company, or just given the DEATHWING keyword and played as Veterans attached to other Companies the choice can safely be left up to each player's opinion and head canon.

 

I make no secret that I plan to use the upcoming FW minis as Counts-As Blade Guard and to use them in the 3rd Company as Vets (or Chosen :devil: ). This is because I hold similar views to Brother solarisqc with regard to career progression within the Legion.

 

Others will no doubt use them for options more related to the keywords.

Edited June 24, 2020 by Interrogator Stobz

[G8Keeper]

I'm going to slightly go off on my own tangent.  My DW are already at full 100 company strength and I'm going to use Bladeguard and any future Primaris additions to the 1st company to reflect the "nobody knows the true number" aspect, taking them above 100 strength.  This is also going to be true of the Ravenwing but I don't have 100 of them yet :D.

[Master Sheol]

I'm going to slightly go off on my own tangent. My DW are already at full 100 company strength and I'm going to use Bladeguard and any future Primaris additions to the 1st company to reflect the "nobody knows the true number" aspect, taking them above 100 strength. This is also going to be true of the Ravenwing but I don't have 100 of them yet :D.

7th edition codex stated this thing of the unknown number of DW and RW numbers while 8th edition codex reverted to standard 100 men companies

I like better the unknown number for DW and RW but i don't have 100 termies or 100 RW

 

I totally agree that the knightly look of the Bladeguard is better suited for DW than aggressors (or any other gravis unit) and i will paint mine in DW colours cause i think the look hot with that color scheme

Edited June 24, 2020 by Master Sheol

[G8Keeper]

 

7th edition codex stated this thing of the unknown number of DW and RW numbers while 8th edition codex reverted to standard 100 men companies

I like better the unknown number for DW and RW but i don't have 100 termies or 100 RW

 

 

I keep my secrets even from the codex development team :)

[Master Sheol]

 

 

7th edition codex stated this thing of the unknown number of DW and RW numbers while 8th edition codex reverted to standard 100 men companies

I like better the unknown number for DW and RW but i don't have 100 termies or 100 RW

 

I keep my secrets even from the codex development team :)

Always keep your secrets ;)

"Knowledge is power, hide it well"

[HandsWithLegs]

This is probably just useless wild speculation, but here goes. I've noticed a few people commenting on how the Bladeguard seem to be pretty close to the old HH Deathwing unit that FW announced. Could this be GW taking an early step towards reforms made when the Lion returns? Bringing back some of the older traditions from when he lead the DA while bringing some of the successors back into the fold and under his control. 

[Fajita Fan]

 

 

In fact, to be honest, I kinda like the idea of Deathwing Veterans moving down to the Battle Companies to lead them, and taking these armor and weapons as they take on the position of the company's veterans, very appealing from a lore-building point of view. Would be nice to see the Deathwing retain the TDA composition of the COMPANY, but to have their members spread out a bit into the Battle Companies through these new roles, to carry on their secretive duties across the rest of the legion army, under the careful watch of the Inner Circle.

Uh, I used to have the DA codex fluff memorized - haven't read that section in a couple of years - but that's exactly how it works? The first company is the rapid response group whenever Fallen are rumored to be around and using TDA that can teleport is meant to be how they get down to that spot so fast.  I'm 99% sure the captains of other companies have all gone through the 1st Company, are aware of the Fallen, and serve as the eyes of the Inner Circle throughout DA campaigns. That's why we show up to campaigns for no apparent reason, fight our fights, then leave whenever we choose much to the consternation of other chapters.  

 

I guess the weirdest part to me about Bladeguard Vets being in the first company is they don't teleport (unless they do...?) so they're not same rapid response unit.  The fluff of TDA squads teleporting together is part of what drew me into playing DA in the first place back in 3rd edition when playing pure Deathwing was like playing the game on its hardest setting. As soon as the 4th edition codex hit I started buying the army back when I worked part time, went to grad school, and had no money (at one point back then my total liquidity was $56 total  ).

 

To me Deathwing isn't about being competitive, it's about playing one of the fluffiest armies out there and seeing the fluff change to sell new kits that don't fit several editions of our story makes me sad. 

[Fajita Fan]

This is probably just useless wild speculation, but here goes. I've noticed a few people commenting on how the Bladeguard seem to be pretty close to the old HH Deathwing unit that FW announced. Could this be GW taking an early step towards reforms made when the Lion returns? Bringing back some of the older traditions from when he lead the DA while bringing some of the successors back into the fold and under his control. 

Oh that could totally be a thing, the last codex said the Lion is in stasis in the Rock so it would make sense that a model is coming and that of course he'll need a bodyguard of new kits.

 

I don't like the giant holsters on their front hip but other than that the Bladeguard look cool at least.  I wish our Deathwing termies had a sword option to replace thunderhammers.  

[jaxom]

The holsters are separate pieces if I remember correctly.

 

Guilliman was noted for stealing unit ideas from other legions. It’s entirely possible Bladeguard are his attempt at Deathwing Companions.

[G8Keeper]

Their name in itself suggests some kind of bodyguard rule to me, Bladeguard that is, heck even the companions too. Okay even more wild speculation, they have 3 wounds+ so a character cannot be targeted even if only 1 is left alive within 3".

[Brother Tyler]

The "~guard" nomenclature has become the de facto method for identifying veteran squads (Sternguard, Vanguard, and now Bladeguard).
 
The unit itself also draws on the Invictarus Suzerain of the Ultramarines Legion (who wielded axes instead of swords), the Templars of the Imperial Fists Legion, the Crimson Paladins of the Blood Angels Legion (though those veterans wore TDA), the Firedrakes of the Salamanders Legion (though those veterans wore TDA and wielded hammers), and even the Palatine Blades of the Emperor's Children Legion (though they didn't bear shields). The Bladeguard definitely bear a strong resemblance to the Deathwing Companions, but I caution against thinking that they are created solely, or even primarily, with a plan for the Unforgiven in mind.

What I think we're seeing with the Primaris Space Marines in general, especially in terms of how they are being incorporated into the Unforgiven, is a de-emphasis on some of the peculiarities that have crept into the organization of various Chapters over the millennia. With the Unforgiven and the Deathwing, the re-introduction of non-TDA units returns the company to its Great Crusade roots.

The lore has always allowed for non-TDA units to teleport, but it generally requires additional equipment. It might be as simple as a stratagem representing a teleport homer or some other device to allow the Bladeguard to teleport into battle alongside their TDA brethren. Alternate tactics are possible, too. For example, perhaps the TDA battle-brothers teleport in quickly to corner their quarry while the power armoured battle-brothers follow in transports/drop pods/whatever (or they may precede the teleport attack, calling the TDA battle-brothers in to specific coordinates). There are plenty of possible variations for incorporating both TDA and power armour in the veterans of the Deathwing for the mission of hunting the Fallen.

[UtariOnzo]

Perhaps the bladeguard are given the guard duties/accompanying captured fallen that apparently the newer members of the company do? It was the first duty of the new inductees in the Caliban Trilogy books and they did it wearing robes. Given recent escapings, having some level of arms and armour would make sense in that role, along with general protection (and maybe oversight) of officers Edited June 25, 2020 by UtariOnzo

[Fajita Fan]

I still have the metal terminator interrogator chaplain, I should make an updated plastic one with a combi plasma who is standing on a DA Primaris head. :D :D

 

If the bladeguard had robes they’d look much better IMO. Their swords look cool at least.

Edited June 25, 2020 by Fajita Fan