Ways Horus could have ensured victory in the Heresy

[Moonreaper666]

Despite being hailed as the best Primarch, Horus doesn't really live to that reputation when planning and directing the Heresy. The Warmaster should have prepared and done more before starting the Heresy and during the civil war such as:

 

(This hypothetical assumes that Horus was given intelligence by the Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, Daemons, Chaos Xenos and other sources to get a full picture of the Milky Way)

 

 

Have Loyal elements of the Adeptus Mechanicus send a force to attack Major Eldar Craftworlds, Eldar Exodites and Commoragh

 

-Working with Kel-bor Hal, Horus selects Mechanicus forces that are loyal to the Emperor to attack as many Eldar as possible to weaken the Loyalists and prevent Eldar interference in the Heresy. Use the greed and curiousity of the Mechanicus against itself

 

-As a bonus, the Eldar will launch reprisal attacks against the Imperium which will force the Loyalists to divert some of their forces and give the Traitors more breathing space

 

 

Horus orders Vulkan and the Salamanders to invade Solemnance which gets the 'interest' of Trazyn the Infinite

 

-Trazyn has been awake since the Age of Strife and his Tomb World is so fortified that Tyranids don't even dare to attack it. Salamanders will take heavy casualties attacking the place

 

-Even if Vulkan wins, Trazyn will stalk him to the ends of the Multiverse just to add him to his collection. If the crippled Salamanders still make it to Isstvan V, they are eradicated and the Raven Guard and Iron Hands lose much more Marines. Trazyn keeps sending forces to kidnap Vulkan and steal his Artefacts

 

Manipulate certain events so that the White Scars arrive in the middle of the Burning of Prospero, forcing Khan to defend Magnus and fight Russ, Valdor and Jenetia

 

-Horus sends a message to Khan, telling him that Russ is fighting Magnus against the Warmaster's orders (says that the Sons of Horus accompanying Russ are just disguised Space Wolves) and tells him to save Magnus and kill Russ. White Scars arrive mid-battle, both sides having spilled blood

 

-Assuming the Space Wolves and their allies do not fire the first shot at the arriving White Scars, Khan orders his Legion to engage Russ' forces both in space and on the planet's surface. Very heavy casualties on the Space Wolves and their Primarch probably dies by Khan's hands. Both Valdor and Krole are also killed. Once Khan realizes the truth he either is forced to join Horus or stays out of the war

 

-The White Scars probably become renegades, though a portion joins the Thousand Sons. WS assimilates Ashen Claws and 'neutral' Blackshields. With less losses and new recruits, the TS play a bigger role in the Heresy, especially in Beta-Garmon, Solar War and Siege of Terra

 

 

Just by doing these three things, Horus has sealed his victory:

 

-With Russ dead and the Space Wolves crippled the Traitors have more forces since Alaxxes Nebula, Baztel III and Trisolian don't happen. Cawl is still a prisoner

 

-Without the White Scars harassing the rear of the Traitors they inflict heavier losses on the Loyalists and gain more ground. Second battle of Prospero, Kallium Gate and Cattalus Gate does not happen. Horus does better in Dwell, Beta-Garmon, Solar War and Siege of Terra

 

-Lion sends a part of his Legion to deal with Eldar counterattacks which increases DA casualties while reducing those of the NL in the Thramas Crusade

 

Corswain's forces don't make it to Terra

 

-Corax could have died at Drop Site Massacre. Even if he lived the Slamanders, Raven Guard and Iron Hands are all dead. If he doesn't die at Isstvaan V, then the Terata/New Men of Fabius Bile kill him as he has no Legion to back him up

 

No Shattered Legions means that Horus keeps the Primaris data and mass-produceses Chaos Primaris Astartes. Cawl is still a slave [/space]

[Special Officer Doofy]

-][- Non 40K point removed. -][- BCC

 

If you're going to over moderate, might as well just delete my whole post.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Putrid Choir
Non 40k

[Prot]

Such a bizarre conversation. There's so much hypothesizing and assumptions in it, I can't fathom any of it being right or wrong.

 

I don't recall the Mechanicum being that responsive to Horus until after the line was drawn in the sand. I'm not so sure he could direct a sizable portion of their resources to attack Eldar.

 

The Necron thing is confusing to me. I've read a few novels that actually involve Necrons and it's surprising to me that the Salamanders would have known the existence of Necrons at all. If this is true, it's not the way it always was, and I have to suspect a retcon. 

 

The White Scars are a real wild card. On this point I'd have to say it was a (smartly) calculated effort on Horus' part to not include them and keep them at arm's length on any decisions or decisive actions.  And don't forget.... ... wait I better spoiler this next part:

 

The White Scars actually almost do come to blows with the Wolves.

I think that was a piece of collateral damage Horus was hoping for, but was never going to happen because in a very twisted way, the Alpha Legion prevent that from occurring so that they can receive the message from terra.

 

Also the Eldar part is a little strange. I mean even finding them is next to impossible. Novels have been written on how incredibly hard it is to find living, active Craftworlds.  Heck even -Eldar- have trouble finding Eldar Craftworlds (well documented.)

 

Plus it's been established Eldrad knew exactly what was going on (Heresy wise). I think it's just too much speculation to assume the Eldar would have been manipulated in that way, or even capable of being targeted in such a way. 

 

I think it's fun to have 'what if' conversations, but I think writing a saga this big is going to be a monumental task but I think even so there are a few things we have to remember:

 

- These stories (I've seen Dan Abnett say this) have been written from the point of view of the story tellers. The actions we're reading about definitely have a twist to them that may or may not be entirely accurate.

 

- Horus' leadership being called into action, or what he could have done is almost moot to me. As we approached the final Terra series, I have come tor realize that there is and was a LOT more going on in Horus than we realized for a long time. I think he was at war with a myriad of elements for many decades. At war with Chaos, at war with himself, his own decisions. 

 

- I actually believe the Horus we're seeing at this point is not the same Primarch with his full faculty that we would have believed him to be. This isn't only told through his trials and tribulations on the physical and mental plains of his existence, but this is also told to us through Abaddon. As Abaddon grows in stature through this storyline, it's apparent that through his eyes, this isn't the same guy he went to band camp with.

 

I think an unmanipulated Horus would have done better. But obviously, an unmanipulated Horus never would have done this at all. (I'm pretty sure if you ask the Word Bearers of that era they'd agree.)

Edited May 28, 2020 by Prot

[Scammel]

RE: the general point of pitting loyal legions against Xenos to do the dirty work: besides the issues Prot has pointed out in finding suitably tough races in a galaxy that is likely on the run from the fledgling-yet-dominant Imperium, it's also a remarkably risky and murky way to remove key players from the table. Legions might only send parts of their strength, enjoy unexpected success, or simply find themselves quite capable of retraction - all away from Horus' gaze. No, far better to orchestrate Istvaan and decapitate the bulk of three full legions in a meticulously-planned battle, with Horus personally present to oversee proceedings.

[Moonreaper666]

RE: the general point of pitting loyal legions against Xenos to do the dirty work: besides the issues Prot has pointed out in finding suitably tough races in a galaxy that is likely on the run from the fledgling-yet-dominant Imperium, it's also a remarkably risky and murky way to remove key players from the table. Legions might only send parts of their strength, enjoy unexpected success, or simply find themselves quite capable of retraction - all away from Horus' gaze. No, far better to orchestrate Istvaan and decapitate the bulk of three full legions in a meticulously-planned battle, with Horus personally present to oversee proceedings.

Problem is that the Dark Angels were sent to fight a weak human empire which didn't really hurt them

 

-Horus should have sent Lion to fight an Ork Empire. The Dark Angels can't just leave after stirring a hornet's nest so they have to eradicate the Orks which would takr time and the DA will take casualties

 

Horus would have known about Trazyn, one of the very few Necrons awake in the GC, through his Daemonic allies. Solemnance is heavily fortified which means the Salamanders would take heavy casualties. Trazyn will kidnap Vulkan for his collection

 

Horus would have taken the Alpha Legion into account when he gave the secret message to Khan so the WS are present in the Burning at Prospero at the right specific time to force them to fight the Space Wolves (Horus and Perturabo were able to do a such a precise timing manuever in Solar War)

 

In fact, Horus could Explicitly order the Alpha Legion not to interfere against the White Scars. Instead, order the AL fleet to instead ambush the Blood Angels or Dark Angels

 

As for the Eldar:

 

-Ulthwé is right next to the Eye of Terror, permanently stuck. Daemons can easily find it and tell Horus

 

-Biel-tan will send its forces to defend Maiden Worlds, where Exodites live, against Loyalist Mechanicus. They can trace the Eldar reinforcements back to the Craftworld they came from. If not they continue to attack Exodites

 

-Kelbor-Hal is the leader of the Mechanicus before the Schism. He would be able to send Loyalist Mechanicus forces to do very difficult missions to bleed them before the Heresy.

 

Problem with Isstvan V is that it is something Horus can only do once and he failed to exterminate all Three Legions and failed to kill Vulkan and Corax. By weakening the Raven Guard and Salamanders prior to the Drop Site Massacre it would have guranteed the complete extermination of All 3 Legions and 3 Primarchs

 

(Konrad doesn't take Vulkan so Horus finds him and finds a way to get rid of him permanently. Alpha Legion don't have a chance to run interference to save Corax meaning he and his Legion dies)

 

Shattered Legions continued to be a pain for Horus. They stole the Primaris data from Chaos-occupied Luna during the Siege

 

It is never really clear if the Chaos Gods wanted Horus to win or not. Perhaps it didn't matter to them as long as certain objectives were achieved? (Magnus, Webway Project and Emperor)

[Iron Father Ferrum]

LOL. You think the Alphas would have done precisely what Horus ordered them to do. That's precious.

[Lovecraft0110]

Neither the Eldar nor the Necrons are at all relevant. The Necrons didn't even exist in the fluff until like yesterday

...for an old fart like me, that is. I still own the White Dwarf with the free Necron warrior, lol.

[Lucerne]

The topic title is an interesting what if, but none of the suggestions really work.

 

Honestly, letting Lorgar handle the Ultramarines with Angron was a waste- you put the zealot with the butcher to remove the Ultras from play? Honestly, there's no target legion short of the TSons where that sort of misjudgment of legion synergy could plausibly work out rather than be a gross waste of predictable resources.

 

Far better to send the Alpha Legion with Lorgar- yes, it's awkward bedfellows which actually works to your advantage in that both Legions will be inclined to make sure the other stays "on task" more or less- but you at least use their natures more efficiently than against the White Scars, and harder for the Alphas to "accidentally" mishandle things again when Lorgar's there to make sure the bottling off of the Ultramarines goes as planned. The Shadow Crusade also plays to the strengths of the Alpha Legion- and more importantly is something they'd probably want to do anyway- while you can use the World Eaters as disposable shock troops as part of the main push elsewhere and they'd be in no state to argue with your orders. Angron dies? Well, he'd outlived his usefulness anyway. Better yet, they do better than canon and destroy the UM as a meaningful force, removing some of the time pressure later.

 

Calth can be the decapitation strike, then whatever the two Legions do in the aftermath (with an emphasis on scorched earth and delaying tactics in their orders) only working to your advantage by tying up whatever survives the initial crippling. At the cost of the Word Bearers and the dubious ally of the Alpha Legion, you have a much more guaranteed removal of the Ultramarines from play indefinitely.

 

Angron dies before Terra? Well, no big loss for Horus.

 

Also, keep a tighter leash on Curze. He was canonically more or less useless for years.

 

Make sure your reliable commanders don't wander off: Mortarion and Perturabo.

 

Scorched earth tactics would also help Horus ensure victory- no wasting your Legions and strengths on costly ground battles, just burn any key worlds unlikely to be worth the cost in lives and loyalist resistance. Istvaan 3 writ large.

 

Canonically, the traitors fragmented far too much and Horus pretty much lost his grasp on them long before Terra. There will be no scattering this time around. No individual Primarch actions if Horus can help it (short of the Emperor's Children which are pretty much a lost cause and demand either being written off or kept under his personal supervision), only mixed fleets of at least 2 Legions, with Sons of Horus emissaries pointedly attached to their forces as "liasons" and centralized commands. If the liasons go quiet, Horus will Have Words with the wayward brother about his expectations.

 

Plausible set ups:

Alpha Legion and Word Bearers on the Shadow Crusade.

Iron Warriors and Death Guard as the "reliable ones"

Sons of Horus with either World Eaters for cannon fodder or Emperor's Children because the Children...can't be trusted. That, or give up on the Emperor's Children as a small and self-destructive Legion and keep Konrad on mission since the terror troops have more military use for a hasty dark compliance/rush to Terra than a numerically smaller force rapidly losing all of its conventional advantages.

 

Thousand Sons are a writeoff regardless of Horus's actions. Maybe nudge Prospero towards being mutual destruction or arrange for a mini-Ruinstorm/the doom of the Space Wolves?

 

Have Sanguinius destroyed. Don't let Erebus play games, just flat out have Signus Prime be the doom of ALL the Blood Angels.

 

On that note, execute any of your underlings that play power games without your consent. Erebus's lifespan is measured in months.

 

The White Scars have ONE chance to join you. If you let the AL handle it as per canon, don't go for the half-hearted "maybe he'll come around" policy after the recruitment goes south.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Lucerne

[Ranulf]

Killing the Emperor in their duel would have likely helped the cause.

 

-Ran

[Lucerne]

Killing the Emperor in their duel would have likely helped the cause.

 

-Ran

Big if true.

[STC Logisengine]

Well, I don't know. Things turned out the only way they could have. ;)

Again, the XXth did what they did at chondax, paramar, pluto and so on because they are ~Loyal~.
They are the inside man, bleeding the traitors as much as they can without endangering the endgame, the complete annihilation of the traitors at Terra.
Then at Terra things go horribly wrong, and the opportunity to end the fallen legions in one fell blow slips away and the legion must slip away to regroup and implement plans for the worst case scenario that had now become reality (as per the Legion novel, where the 40K timeline is laid out).

[Moonreaper666]

Well, I don't know. Things turned out the only way they could have. ;)

 

Again, the XXth did what they did at chondax, paramar, pluto and so on because they are ~Loyal~.

They are the inside man, bleeding the traitors as much as they can without endangering the endgame, the complete annihilation of the traitors at Terra.

Then at Terra things go horribly wrong, and the opportunity to end the fallen legions in one fell blow slips away and the legion must slip away to regroup and implement plans for the worst case scenario that had now become reality (as per the Legion novel, where the 40K timeline is laid out).

Didn't Alpharius had enough and wanted to kill Dorn at Pluto, prophecies be damned?

 

I felt that the Alpha Legion hurt both sides in the Heresy. AL agents hurt the Imperium in both Solar War and Siege of Terra. Pluto was the final time they 'aid' the Imperium. After that, Alpharius would have dedicated his Legion to Horus if he had lived and killed Dorn

 

It feels like the Chaos Gods didn't care about the outcome of the Heresy as long as the Webway Project is destroyed and the Emperor crippled beyond the point of Heresy. Horus winning and spreading Chaos to the ends of the Milky Way and beyond was just icing on the cake

 

If Chaos really wanted a total victory:

 

-Replace the weakling Ka'Bandha with Doombreed. Sanginius and the Blood Angels are either eradicated or corrupted at Signus Prime

 

-Give Drach'nyen to Abaddon at the start of the Heresy, greatly increasing his kill count. He kills Loken at Isstvan III, Shadrak Meduson at Drop Site Massacre, Bjorn Fell-handed at Trisolian, A Raven Guard Captain at Yarrant and Dorn at First Wall with the help of Zardu Lalyak. His kill count would be 5x times bigger

 

-Have Skulltaker challenge Sigismund in First Wall. Skulltaker would kill him long before Dorn intervenes

 

-Have the Daemon Prince Xyn'Goran (basically Hrud on steroids) replace Kairos and wipe out Lion and the Dark Angels

[Lucerne]

Well, I don't know. Things turned out the only way they could have.

 

Again, the XXth did what they did at chondax, paramar, pluto and so on because they are ~Loyal~.

They are the inside man, bleeding the traitors as much as they can without endangering the endgame, the complete annihilation of the traitors at Terra.

Then at Terra things go horribly wrong, and the opportunity to end the fallen legions in one fell blow slips away and the legion must slip away to regroup and implement plans for the worst case scenario that had now become reality (as per the Legion novel, where the 40K timeline is laid out).

From Horus's POV, the Alpha Legion was a loose cannon. Best to throw them at somewhere they can't play games and would be useful.

[Scammel]

 

Well, I don't know. Things turned out the only way they could have.

 

Again, the XXth did what they did at chondax, paramar, pluto and so on because they are ~Loyal~.

They are the inside man, bleeding the traitors as much as they can without endangering the endgame, the complete annihilation of the traitors at Terra.

Then at Terra things go horribly wrong, and the opportunity to end the fallen legions in one fell blow slips away and the legion must slip away to regroup and implement plans for the worst case scenario that had now become reality (as per the Legion novel, where the 40K timeline is laid out).

Didn't Alpharius had enough and wanted to kill Dorn at Pluto, prophecies be damned?

 

I felt that the Alpha Legion hurt both sides in the Heresy. AL agents hurt the Imperium in both Solar War and Siege of Terra. Pluto was the final time they 'aid' the Imperium. After that, Alpharius would have dedicated his Legion to Horus if he had lived and killed Dorn

 

It feels like the Chaos Gods didn't care about the outcome of the Heresy as long as the Webway Project is destroyed and the Emperor crippled beyond the point of Heresy. Horus winning and spreading Chaos to the ends of the Milky Way and beyond was just icing on the cake

 

If Chaos really wanted a total victory:

 

-Replace the weakling Ka'Bandha with Doombreed. Sanginius and the Blood Angels are either eradicated or corrupted at Signus Prime

 

-Give Drach'nyen to Abaddon at the start of the Heresy, greatly increasing his kill count. He kills Loken at Isstvan III, Shadrak Meduson at Drop Site Massacre, Bjorn Fell-handed at Trisolian, A Raven Guard Captain at Yarrant and Dorn at First Wall with the help of Zardu Lalyak. His kill count would be 5x times bigger

 

-Have Skulltaker challenge Sigismund in First Wall. Skulltaker would kill him long before Dorn intervenes

 

-Have the Daemon Prince Xyn'Goran (basically Hrud on steroids) replace Kairos and wipe out Lion and the Dark Angels

 

I think this is the weakest part of your whole proposition, if I'm honest; there's a lot of simply instructing the insane, ephemeral, mercurial entities of the warp to just do something or just tell Horus mundane information about the universe. A conversation with a Daemon is never cheap, reliable or clear and binding a Daemon to the point where it can be instructed is especially risky.

 

They also have different priorities despite the same shared goal - Daemons are interested in acts of ritualistic or spiritual significance over what Horus needs on a day-to-day basis; Horus may need a planet's forge facilities captured or a Primarch killed, but Daemons simply won't care about the former and are more prone to waste time with the latter. Horus knows he simply needs Sanguinius or Guilliman dead, but the powers of the warp will always find it far too tempting to sink their claws into another of the Emperor's favoured sons.

 

Horus' daemonic allies are the metaphorical snakes released into the city to deal with the lizards. You can press the start button once, and they'll do a great job simply attacking the problem according to their own whims, but any sense of control or meaningful communication is an illusion.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

*snip*

 

You have a lot of smart decisions and assignments there, but I don't know if that would have flown with the primarchs without Horus risking an internal conflict. The primarchs were already chafing under the leadership of the Emperor and the Council of Terra, now Horus would be placing his marines as "emissaries" to act as stewards and chaperones? I really can't see that working out in any reasonable way without causing giant issues: you can't lead a revolution against an oppressive regime by leading your revolutionaries in an even more oppressive manner (even if it would have been warranted and would have led to a better outcome) without it causing a lot of friction.

 

As to why Horus did not just burn it all down, it is important to remember that Horus had a specific endgame (or at least had in the beginning): the same Imperium, but with the Astartes in charge and Horus as the Emperor. The traitor primarchs would probably have been fine with any means that would lead to Horus being on the throne, but unless Horus plans to defeat the Emperor and then start a completely new centuries-long Great Crusade with whatever remains of his forces to force compliance on every single remaining world, he must have a way to make that transition as seamless as possible. It is really hard to make that transition seamless if you just burn it all. This is also why he must defeat the Emperor and be absolutely certain he is dead, he can't have a claim on the Imperium as long as He is walking around.

[Lucerne]

 

*snip*

 

You have a lot of smart decisions and assignments there, but I don't know if that would have flown with the primarchs without Horus risking an internal conflict. The primarchs were already chafing under the leadership of the Emperor and the Council of Terra, now Horus would be placing his marines as "emissaries" to act as stewards and chaperones? I really can't see that working out in any reasonable way without causing giant issues: you can't lead a revolution against an oppressive regime by leading your revolutionaries in an even more oppressive manner (even if it would have been warranted and would have led to a better outcome) without it causing a lot of friction.

 

As to why Horus did not just burn it all down, it is important to remember that Horus had a specific endgame (or at least had in the beginning): the same Imperium, but with the Astartes in charge and Horus as the Emperor. The traitor primarchs would probably have been fine with any means that would lead to Horus being on the throne, but unless Horus plans to defeat the Emperor and then start a completely new centuries-long Great Crusade with whatever remains of his forces to force compliance on every single remaining world, he must have a way to make that transition as seamless as possible. It is really hard to make that transition seamless if you just burn it all. This is also why he must defeat the Emperor and be absolutely certain he is dead, he can't have a claim on the Imperium as long as He is walking around.

 

What were the post-Istvaan Primarchs going to do about it, start a war with the Sons of Horus?

 

Yes, there'd be dead emissaries and the Emperor's Children would probably still do their own thing, but the "reliable" ones- Perty, Morty-would have a more hands off approach with the SoH there officially more as "honored liasons", while the World Eaters would be too insane to care and the Night Lords would fragment more slowly with a Son of Horus along for the ride.

 

As for worlds, well, the idea is to rush Terra, kill the Emperor, then pick up the pieces. Breaking a few key worlds along the way is just the cost of regicide.

Edited May 30, 2020 by Lucerne

[b1soul]

I think playing the WS against the SW at Prospero would have been a smart move

 

Instead, WS arrived late and ended up engaging the DG

 

Maybe Horus couldn't pull off an earlier arrival due to logistical obstacles

[Scammel]

My read of Scars is that attacking the Wolves at Prospero is among the last things the Khan would do, because it's the first thing he would want to do.

 

The Scars were snubbed by the Emperor and particularly Russ at Nikea, and Jaghatai's bond with Magnus is one of the strongest. To avenge himself upon the Wolves on Prospero would be a perfect vindication, and that's why it likely wouldn't pass the sniff test; I don't have the exact line to hand but Jaghatai basically states that he has a personal BS-ometer when presented with narratives that are too good to be true. The presence of the Talons of the Emperor probably makes the klaxons sound even louder, because it throws doubt on Horus' account of Russ going rogue.

[Moonreaper666]

My read of Scars is that attacking the Wolves at Prospero is among the last things the Khan would do, because it's the first thing he would want to do.

 

The Scars were snubbed by the Emperor and particularly Russ at Nikea, and Jaghatai's bond with Magnus is one of the strongest. To avenge himself upon the Wolves on Prospero would be a perfect vindication, and that's why it likely wouldn't pass the sniff test; I don't have the exact line to hand but Jaghatai basically states that he has a personal BS-ometer when presented with narratives that are too good to be true. The presence of the Talons of the Emperor probably makes the klaxons sound even louder, because it throws doubt on Horus' account of Russ going rogue.

Still, had Khan arrived in the middle of the battle he would have ordered his Legion to attack the Space Wolves, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Imperial Army, Sons of Horus and Titans decimating them. The Thousand Sons and the Titans on their side take less casualties which is good for Horus

 

The White Scars would have become Renegades like the Ash Claws, perhaps assimilating the latter. Without the WS harassing the Traitors and participating in key battles Horus wins. It is even worse if many WS defect to the Traitors

 

The near-total destruction of the Space Wolves means that they are out of the Heresy. The Alpha Legion can commit more of its forces to Pluto resulting in Dorn's death more casualties on the Loyalist ships and defenses

 

For me there always has been this feeling that the Imperium was dangling on a rope during the Heresy. If the Chaos Gods put just a little bit more effort at a certain time it would have given Horus total victory

 

It would have been disastrous for the Imperium if the Iron Warriors discovered the Cursus of Alganar on Tallarn. That planet and maybe others nearby could have been Daemon Worlds and the Iron Warriors would have a lot of Daemon reinforcements and greater understanding of Sorcery

[Scammel]

 

My read of Scars is that attacking the Wolves at Prospero is among the last things the Khan would do, because it's the first thing he would want to do.

 

The Scars were snubbed by the Emperor and particularly Russ at Nikea, and Jaghatai's bond with Magnus is one of the strongest. To avenge himself upon the Wolves on Prospero would be a perfect vindication, and that's why it likely wouldn't pass the sniff test; I don't have the exact line to hand but Jaghatai basically states that he has a personal BS-ometer when presented with narratives that are too good to be true. The presence of the Talons of the Emperor probably makes the klaxons sound even louder, because it throws doubt on Horus' account of Russ going rogue.

Still, had Khan arrived in the middle of the battle he would have ordered his Legion to attack the Space Wolves, Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Imperial Army, Sons of Horus and Titans decimating them. The Thousand Sons and the Titans on their side take less casualties which is good for Horus

 

I really, really don't think the Khan is going to declare war on the Imperium this way. I don't even think he'd attack the Wolves if they were operating alone and seemingly just playing out legion beef, for the reasons I set out above.

 

To be honest, I don't think there's much value in this exercise, and it's certainly not the way I read the series. The Heresy isn't 'about' the strategy and the military campaign; that's not where the tension lies. The story loses a lot of the drama if it's obvious to the reader that we internet schmucks can easily do a better job of it and I'd advise taking it as read that Horus' plan was basically perfectly planned with the resources he has to hand.

 

The real questions we should be asking about how the Heresy might have played out differently are in the much smaller, personal moments. What if Polux had disobeyed orders at Phall, and potentially defeated Perturabo? What if the Word Bearers had simply made to kill Guilliman on Calth, rather than attempting to turn him? What if Dorn had convinced Russ to remain on Terra for the siege? What if Magnus had resisted his urge to protect his Sons and allowed himself to be captured? These are far more interesting questions than 'Why didn't Horus use the eagles to fly to Mordor?'

Edited June 1, 2020 by Scammel

[Leif Bearclaw]

How is Horus meant to do any of this?

 

 

Have Loyal elements of the Adeptus Mechanicus send a force to attack Major Eldar Craftworlds, Eldar Exodites and Commoragh

How? What major Eldar Craftworlds are known to the Imperium circa 004.m31 (when Horus went bad on Davin)? How are Exodites even a threat to the Imperium at the height of its power? How does Horus even know about Commoragh, let alone be able to send forces there?

 

 

Horus orders Vulkan and the Salamanders to invade Solemnance which gets the 'interest' of Trazyn the Infinite

How does Horus know there's anything on Solemnace? Why Solemnace in particular (one would think Mandragora would be a better bet)? If the Great Crusade had known about a Necron Tomb on Solemnace, it would have been destroyed as a matter of course. Because that's what the Great Crusade did. Also, even assuming Tzazyn survives the destruction of his power base, he's far from some unstoppable master thief. He's repeatedly lost to the Salamanders in m41, and failed to acquire He'stan's artifacts, so I wouldn't rate his chances going up against a Legion, led by their Primarch, without his power base. This is also contingent on him deciding that Vulkan is at fault. But Trazyn isn't a moron, so he could just as easily decide that, as Horus gave the Salamanders their orders, it's Horus that deserves his attention.

 

 

Manipulate certain events so that the White Scars arrive in the middle of the Burning of Prospero, forcing Khan to defend Magnus and fight Russ, Valdor and Jenetia
 

How? The Scars were sent to Chondax after Ullanor, 4 years before Horus fell on Davin. Granted Malevolence suggests that Horus was already evil at this point (a major mistake imo), but it's written as an in universe Imperial history document, and so it's fallible. Whereas we know that Horus went bad on Davin, years later.

 

 

-Assuming the Space Wolves and their allies do not fire the first shot at the arriving White Scars, Khan orders his Legion to engage Russ' forces both in space and on the planet's surface. Very heavy casualties on the Space Wolves and their Primarch probably dies by Khan's hands. Both Valdor and Krole are also killed. Once Khan realizes the truth he either is forced to join Horus or stays out of the war
 

This entire scenario relies on the Khan being an idiot. If the Scars arrive mid-Scouring, they will be hailed by the Censure Fleet. At which point Khan will learn of the presence of the Custodes and the official authorisation (from both Empy and Horus) that Russ is operating under. And there's no reason to assume that Khan will order an attack under those circumstances. That could even end the battle peacefully (depending on how far things had progressed), as Valdor and Russ could decide to end the fighting when they discover Horus had directly lied to the Khan, making his involvement in their orders more suspect. At which point Horus's scheme is revealed early, the Sons probably don't join him, and the Wolves are less battered, so he's actually worse off than in 'reality'.

 

 

The White Scars probably become renegades, though a portion joins the Thousand Sons. WS assimilates Ashen Claws and 'neutral' Blackshields. With less losses and new recruits, the TS play a bigger role in the Heresy, especially in Beta-Garmon, Solar War and Siege of Terra

Why? If the Scars wade in to the Scouring and win, then Magnus and the Khan are going to talk. Jaghatai will learn of Magnus's vision, and will find out that Horus was playing him. All Jaghatai has to do is broadcast the orders he got from Horus and the wider Imperium knows that Horus isn't on the level. So neither the Sons nor the Scars go renegade, and Horus's surprise is blown. That's a very different Heresy, granted, but hardly an auto win for Horus either, as none of the machinations that sidelined the DAs, BAs and Ultras work if his treachery is known that early. Again, your hypothetical relies on everyone being idiots.

 

On top of all this unsubstantiated wishlisting. You've missed the most important thing. Do any of your proposed changes make Horus able to kill the Emperor? Because ultimately that's why Horus lost.

[Stix]

-Give Drach'nyen to Abaddon at the start of the Heresy, greatly increasing his kill count. He kills [...] Shadrak Meduson at Drop Site Massacre ...

No, he doesn't. 1) how would he do that? Meduson was not on the surface of Istvaan 2) why would he do that? Shadrak at that point was just a regular captain.

 

Just ssmall nitpick ;)

Edited June 1, 2020 by Stix

[Moonreaper666]

 

-Give Drach'nyen to Abaddon at the start of the Heresy, greatly increasing his kill count. He kills [...] Shadrak Meduson at Drop Site Massacre ...

No, he doesn't. 1) how would he do that? Meduson was not on the surface of Istvaan 2) why would he do that? Shadrak at that point was just a regular captain.

 

Just ssmall nitpick ;)

I thought Meduson was on the planet based on an image of him?

 

The Emperor's Children and the second wave of Traitors wiped out the IH's senior leaders. Even with Drach'nyen, Abaddon is going to take time butchering the Loyalists in his way before he reaches the first IH Captain still alive

 

The point is that Abaddon will eliminate many important Loyalists early on which affects later battles

[Scammel]

 

 

-Give Drach'nyen to Abaddon at the start of the Heresy, greatly increasing his kill count. He kills [...] Shadrak Meduson at Drop Site Massacre ...

No, he doesn't. 1) how would he do that? Meduson was not on the surface of Istvaan 2) why would he do that? Shadrak at that point was just a regular captain.

 

Just ssmall nitpick

I thought Meduson was on the planet based on an image of him?

 

The Emperor's Children and the second wave of Traitors wiped out the IH's senior leaders. Even with Drach'nyen, Abaddon is going to take time butchering the Loyalists in his way before he reaches the first IH Captain still alive

 

The point is that Abaddon will eliminate many important Loyalists early on which affects later battles

 

Drach'nyen isn't a sword at this point, more to the point.

[bluntblade]

This is a perfect example of trying to impose knowledge that the characters do not have and pure logic on a story which does not run on pure logic and foresight, and indeed actually relies on characters making terrible mistakes to drive the narrative forward.

 

Just like with "why didn't X do Y?" there are almost always reasons for this that are logical (Malcador's scenes often get into this when Chris Wraight handles him and in Path of Heaven a whole subplot is fashioned from that basis) but the real issue is that this approach would unwritten the story.

Edited June 2, 2020 by bluntblade