Ways Horus could have ensured victory in the Heresy

[Wolf Lord Loki]

 

-Give Drach'nyen to Abaddon at the start of the Heresy, greatly increasing his kill count. He kills Loken at Isstvan III, Shadrak Meduson at Drop Site Massacre, Bjorn Fell-handed at Trisolian, A Raven Guard Captain at Yarrant and Dorn at First Wall with the help of Zardu Lalyak. His kill count would be 5x times bigger

 

 

Didn't the Emperor face Drach'nyen in the battle for the webway? It's a result of that battle that the Daemon is made into a sword and banished from Terra

 

So no sword for Abadon

[Mogsam]

Hang on, did the Emperor turn it into a sword?

 

If he did and can do that, he'd be better off carrying something useless around and turning greater demons into salad spinners or something.

 

I don't think there was ever anything thta could have assured Horus a victory. I really struggle with some of the heresy novels as the stories get convoluted to support the narrative that Horus could win.

[Scammel]

Hang on, did the Emperor turn it into a sword?

 

If he did and can do that, he'd be better off carrying something useless around and turning greater demons into salad spinners or something.

 

I don't think there was ever anything thta could have assured Horus a victory. I really struggle with some of the heresy novels as the stories get convoluted to support the narrative that Horus could win.

Eh, it's not that far-fetched; Horus does manage to orchestrate events to the point where he faces the Emperor in single combat. It's to the credit of the loyalists that he's forced to assault Terra with Guilliman snapping at his heels, but unless the final book reveals that Horus was always going to be hopelessly outclassed mano a mano (and I really don't think it's going to be that simple), it doesn't get much tighter.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

Hang on, did the Emperor turn it into a sword?

 

If he did and can do that, he'd be better off carrying something useless around and turning greater demons into salad spinners or something.

 

I don't think there was ever anything thta could have assured Horus a victory. I really struggle with some of the heresy novels as the stories get convoluted to support the narrative that Horus could win.

Eh, it's not that far-fetched; Horus does manage to orchestrate events to the point where he faces the Emperor in single combat. It's to the credit of the loyalists that he's forced to assault Terra with Guilliman snapping at his heels, but unless the final book reveals that Horus was always going to be hopelessly outclassed mano a mano (and I really don't think it's going to be that simple), it doesn't get much tighter.

Twice Sanginius was very close to dying or be corrupted during the Heresy, Signus Prime and the fight against Ma'dail

[Pacific81]

I'm still hoping that they go down the "at the moment of victory he felt remorse for what he done" route from the old fluff for the reason that Horus lowers the shields on his battle barge.. there was always a nice narrative full-circle with that as an idea. 

[Mogsam]

In my opinion, the heresy should end with a display of how futile the whole thing was and that Horus never actually stood a chance at the end against the Emperor. The machinations to tie the Emperor to Terra was what doomed humanity and all Horus did was completely wreck humanities chance at prosperity because of his internal petty jealously.

 

For me the horus heresy is more of a Greek tradegy than some super hero story of awesome fight scenes.

[Scammel]

I'm still hoping that they go down the "at the moment of victory he felt remorse for what he done" route from the old fluff for the reason that Horus lowers the shields on his battle barge.. there was always a nice narrative full-circle with that as an idea. 

 

Hm, my gut instinct is that this won't be the case, because a heap of moral ambiguity has been added to the traditional account by what we know about The Emperor and the Imperial project. Horus has sunken as far as it is possible to sink but Horus Rising is clear from the start that there are contradictions and outright lies that hobble the early Imperium; that's not to say the Imperials aren't sympathetic, but the project isn't morally 'good' enough to warrant a genuine moment of remorse from Horus. If such a moment comes, it will be very complex, and probably involve a handful of perpetuals with beef with both Horus and The Emperor.

[Moonreaper666]

 

 

I'm still hoping that they go down the "at the moment of victory he felt remorse for what he done" route from the old fluff for the reason that Horus lowers the shields on his battle barge.. there was always a nice narrative full-circle with that as an idea.

Hm, my gut instinct is that this won't be the case, because a heap of moral ambiguity has been added to the traditional account by what we know about The Emperor and the Imperial project. Horus has sunken as far as it is possible to sink but Horus Rising is clear from the start that there are contradictions and outright lies that hobble the early Imperium; that's not to say the Imperials aren't sympathetic, but the project isn't morally 'good' enough to warrant a genuine moment of remorse from Horus. If such a moment comes, it will be very complex, and probably involve a handful of perpetuals with beef with both Horus and The Emperor.

What will happen in the final Siege of Terra novel will outright retcon the duel

 

- Sanginius gets curbstomped by Chaos Horus, the 'fight' lasting only half a minute

 

- Horus is able to regenerate his wounds while the Emperor can't despite the latter having the help of his Custodes and John Grammaticus

 

- Horus inflicts a deathblow on the Emperor and eradicates his entourage. Out of nowhere, Oll Person shows up and stabs Horus with the Athame Knife which kills Oll and heavily wounds Horus, the wound will not heal

 

- Wounded and distracted, the Emperor uses a spell which sacrifices his Psyker powers and Perpetual power to kill Horus

 

- If the Emperor were to be separated from the Golden Throne it would kill him permanently. He can no longer use Psyker powers without psyker sacrifices which also keep him alive. Despite his immense Psyker powers from all those sacrifices, he is entirely defenseless and relies on the Custodes for protection

 

- If the Emperor dies a giant warp rift opens up in the Sol System. Every planet and moon becomes a Daemon world and the Void Dragon awakens. The Terminus Decree is made to save what little of the Imperium that could be save

[Scammel]

That's an interesting theory, but please do remember to couch it as such - it's your theory. With the best will in the world, I think the reason you're getting a frosty reception with these threads is because you're stating these takes - some of which directly contradict pretty rock-solid material - as facts, that we mere mortals aren't allowed to question.

 

I mean, you claim you know how the final fight will be retconned, and proceed to recap the traditional account almost entirely with just a few nods to The Emperor's Perpetual-ness.

 

- Horus kills Sanguinius easily - completely the same as the traditional account

- Horus mortally wounds The Emperor and whatever retainers He has - completely the same as the traditional account

- The Emperor finds the strength to kill Horus but is forevermore interred on the Golden Throne and forced to devour psykers every day to maintain His power - completely the same as the traditional account

 

Personally, I think something a little more complex is going to happen, because I think a conversation needs to happen between Horus and The Emperor, and I'm also not entirely sure John and Oll are simply going to rock up and pitch in for Him considering their own misgivings about the Imperial project. But that's just my judgement, and I've tried to frame it as such.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Scammel

[Slips]

Alright guys, lets not dift off into how one would retocon the Lore of the Horus Heresy in general (and least of all its climactic moment) and remain focussed on proposed hypotetical situations of the OP and how they may or may not be feasible within the wider context of the story as a whole.

[Pacific81]

 

I'm still hoping that they go down the "at the moment of victory he felt remorse for what he done" route from the old fluff for the reason that Horus lowers the shields on his battle barge.. there was always a nice narrative full-circle with that as an idea. 

 

Hm, my gut instinct is that this won't be the case, because a heap of moral ambiguity has been added to the traditional account by what we know about The Emperor and the Imperial project. Horus has sunken as far as it is possible to sink but Horus Rising is clear from the start that there are contradictions and outright lies that hobble the early Imperium; that's not to say the Imperials aren't sympathetic, but the project isn't morally 'good' enough to warrant a genuine moment of remorse from Horus. If such a moment comes, it will be very complex, and probably involve a handful of perpetuals with beef with both Horus and The Emperor.

 

 

Yes I think now as they have removed any kind of causality behind Horus' actions (he has turned against the Emperor 'because chaos' and being stabbed by a magic sword) then I think similarly it would be unreasonable to expect any kind of relatable behaviour in the final battle! (Sorry for sounding a bit cynical there..)

[Scammel]

 

 

I'm still hoping that they go down the "at the moment of victory he felt remorse for what he done" route from the old fluff for the reason that Horus lowers the shields on his battle barge.. there was always a nice narrative full-circle with that as an idea. 

 

Hm, my gut instinct is that this won't be the case, because a heap of moral ambiguity has been added to the traditional account by what we know about The Emperor and the Imperial project. Horus has sunken as far as it is possible to sink but Horus Rising is clear from the start that there are contradictions and outright lies that hobble the early Imperium; that's not to say the Imperials aren't sympathetic, but the project isn't morally 'good' enough to warrant a genuine moment of remorse from Horus. If such a moment comes, it will be very complex, and probably involve a handful of perpetuals with beef with both Horus and The Emperor.

 

 

Yes I think now as they have removed any kind of causality behind Horus' actions (he has turned against the Emperor 'because chaos' and being stabbed by a magic sword) then I think similarly it would be unreasonable to expect any kind of relatable behaviour in the final battle! (Sorry for sounding a bit cynical there..)

 

 

Oh, I agree completely - the series has been quite badly undermined for some time by the string of deus ex machinas needed to get Horus to turn, made worse by the fact that the vision shown to him is so obviously not The Emperor's intended goal. That's why I'm sincerely hoping for Abnett to write that final conversation on the bridge of the Spirit, because if anyone can pseudo-retcon Horus' motivations into something credible, it's him.