Frontline Gaming Podcast Vehicle/CP Confirmation

[Daynga-Zone]

Was listening to the frontline gaming podcast

and they revealed a couple of details about 9th that had been speculated about on here, but had no evidence so far.

Early on they mention the new rules for tanks being able to fall back out of combat. Interestingly they mention monsters (which we knew about) but also vehicles several times. This was a topic that had been questioned with people wondering if dreadnoughts etc would receive similar rules and while that made since this is the first mention I Edited May 30, 2020 by NTaW
Merged posts.

[Lexington]

Definitely digging the reverse to the CP generation/detachment dynamic. Looking forward to more info on 9th as it drops.

[Fajita Fan]

So is this going to work similar to AoS where you buy battalions (specific squads together) for points and those units get bonuses? 

[Lord_Caerolion]

 

So is this going to work similar to AoS where you buy battalions (specific squads together) for points and those units get bonuses?

That way lies 7th edition death by formations. Nobody wants that again.

The difference is that in AoS you actually have to pay points in addition to the units, it’s not a free benefit. The Demi-Company could be 100 points, in addition to the required units, etc.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think the battalions like in AoS idea is unlikely at release purely for the sheer amount of work involved. Each set of battalions would have to be specific to each faction. That’s a lot of separate formations and buffs and costs to work out ready for launch. They have to be unique because a one-size fits all approach would just leave us right back where we started with armies with cheap units being able to fill them out more easily.

 

I’m not saying it won’t happen, just that it’s more likely to be rolled out with the new codexes if it does.

 

This means whatever detachment system we end up with at release will have to be pretty generic and simple.

Edited May 30, 2020 by MARK0SIAN

[AenarIT]

I'd argue that specialist detachments are more likely to happen in the future.

Now that we'll have to buy the regular ones for some CP, it's even easier to give them additional rules in exchange of increasing their CP cost. 
Formations could easily come back in this form.

[Dark Shepherd]

So is this going to work similar to AoS where you buy battalions (specific squads together) for points and those units get bonuses?

Dont think its bonuses, more it costs Command Points to buy a second or more detachments

[mywrathbedone]

I don't think Formations ever went anywhere. They were just rebranded as Command Points and Stratagems.

[Fajita Fan]

I think the battalions like in AoS idea is unlikely at release purely for the sheer amount of work involved. Each set of battalions would have to be specific to each faction. That’s a lot of separate formations and buffs and costs to work out ready for launch. They have to be unique because a one-size fits all approach would just leave us right back where we started with armies with cheap units being able to fill them out more easily.

 

I’m not saying it won’t happen, just that it’s more likely to be rolled out with the new codexes if it does.

 

This means whatever detachment system we end up with at release will have to be pretty generic and simple.

I think you're giving them way too much credit for playtested balance, editing, and consistency. 

 

I didn't like the formation system and I also don't see why allowing more than one extra detachment is necessary for any armies I can think of off the top of my head. Allowing extra detachments seems like baiting people into looking for power combos or just min/maxing which isn't how these games are balanced.  In 3rd edition my Inquisition stuff could be taken as allies to IG or SM, that means you take one main army and this one extra detachment of elite demon hunters. It wasn't game breaking and really just meant to add character to the army, there were no auras or abilities that someone could use to build some overpowered army. 

 

I'd be in favor of allowing just one allied detachment that doesn't require the traditional force org chart - maybe something really limited - just to allow players to use different models so their army plays differently in a fluffy way.  E.g. Eldar with Harlequins, IG with GSC, Marines with Inquisition, Necrons with Blood Angels [*giggle*], Nids with GSC, etc.  I fail to see why we needed a system where someone uses one codex to build multiple detachments to spam strategems. The idea behind CP was cute but I think the bonuses should've been relatively minor so that list building didn't devolve into spamming MSU to economize on rerolls. 

 

That's kinda why I'm wondering if this will look something like AoS but using a "battleforged" army lets you take extra detachments with bonuses. I hardly think the AoS bonuses have had much, if any, investment is balance playtesting. 

Edited May 30, 2020 by Fajita Fan

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

I think the battalions like in AoS idea is unlikely at release purely for the sheer amount of work involved. Each set of battalions would have to be specific to each faction. That’s a lot of separate formations and buffs and costs to work out ready for launch. They have to be unique because a one-size fits all approach would just leave us right back where we started with armies with cheap units being able to fill them out more easily.

 

I’m not saying it won’t happen, just that it’s more likely to be rolled out with the new codexes if it does.

 

This means whatever detachment system we end up with at release will have to be pretty generic and simple.

I think you're giving them way too much credit for playtested balance, editing, and consistency.

 

[Lexington]

I'd argue that specialist detachments are more likely to happen in the future.

Aren’t they already in the Vigilus Campaign books? Like, they’re not game-breakingly powerful, and you pay CP for them, but that’s pretty much what they are, right?

[jaxom]

I think it's going to be something as simple as each detachment beyond the first costs CP. The Dark Eldar with probably get an errata where the first Kabal, Coven, and Cult detachments don't cost additional CP (i.e. you can have two additional detachments for no CP so long as one is a Kabal, one is a Coven, and one is a Cult).

[AenarIT]

 

I'd argue that specialist detachments are more likely to happen in the future.

Aren’t they already in the Vigilus Campaign books? Like, they’re not game-breakingly powerful, and you pay CP for them, but that’s pretty much what they are, right?

 

Exactly. I'd say it's very likely we'll see more of them. Maybe not as many as the different formations in 7th, but way more than the few currently existing.

[Dark Shepherd]

What Im hoping for now after an Auspex Tactics vid is your first battallion is free but all/any other or additional detachments cost CP

 

Keep them troop slots relevant

[Fajita Fan]

How are you generating CP in the first place?  Still the same system of using a force org chart?  

[jaxom]

It sounds like it's based on the size of the game. More points, more CP. I think Battalion and Brigade will be rolled into a single detachment type based on 2 HQ and 3 Troops and we'll still have the other detachments of 2 HQ and 3 [Elite/Fast Attack/Heavy Support]. It seems like the benefits of Troops will come out during missions; ObSec, generate more VP when a Troop unit holds an objective, etc.

[ThePenitentOne]

This is a cause for concern. Not panic, but concern.

 

Leaving AoS and 7th out of discussion for just a moment, and looking purely at 8th as it exists now, if you remove the CP reward, there is literally no point to using detachments at all, other than expressing the way your army chooses to organize itself. This can, for example, have an impact on HQ ratio, but that's about it.

 

If a battalion is from a different faction or subfaction, then there is more impact upon the army.

 

Now specialist detachments are a whole other thing, because they've always costed CP.

 

What I predict is that there will be some "Free" detachments. These would be like the current detachments- they confer no advantage what so ever, so they cost nothing. There will also be specialist detachments which do confer some kind of ability. Whether we just keep the Vigilus ones, or whether we get more of them, or they get redone.

 

But if it's just regular BRB detachments, and they try to make us pay for them with CP, who isn't going to just take a brigade and fill all the extra slots?

 

Obviously, I don't know what it will look like, but there has to be more to the story. Paying for something that has no game value is not an effective system.

[jaxom]

 

But if it's just regular BRB detachments, and they try to make us pay for them with CP, who isn't going to just take a brigade and fill all the extra slots?

 

Deathwing lists have no Troop or Fast Attack options, Saim-Hann Windrider lists have no Troops options, Armoured Company lists have no Troop or Elite options, etc. I think the reverse is more likely. For example, a White Scars Outrider Detachment of Khan on a Bike, 3 Biker Squads, and then a Librarian and Tactical Squad in a Razoback. I think the intent of the changes to CP generation are a result of the designers realizing they screwed up hard in 8th edition and so I'd be shocked if any of the current BRB detachments end up costing CP.

 

The removal of "X becomes Troops" and the creation of alternative force org charts was meant to free players to play the game how they want within the boundaries of a specific faction without actively penalizing that choice. However, some force org charts were passively penalized by not awarding the same CP benefits as other ways to play. Some factions were passively awarded by having better synergies between sub-factions that could take advantage of the passively awarded force org charts (e.g. IMPERIUM).

 

Divorcing starting CP from detachments and making the first detachment - regardless of its type - free goes a long way in bringing the game back towards what the designers wanted at the outset of 8th edition. Instead, we've got a new dichotomy and please excuse the following generalizations. 

 

Players who want a fluffy, lore based mixed force (like Sisters of Battle fighting alongside Imperial Guard or a Craftworld backed up by a troupe of Harlequins) are not going to care that they have to pay some CP for the ability to do so because it'll be worth it for the coolness and the narrative and "oh well, I'll play one or two less stratagems than I would with a mono-faction force, but I'll still have fun." 

 

Players who want the most efficient force will be actively looking at the costs-benefits of CP spent versus detachment rules gained, "Is it worth spending the CP so the mobile/melee portion of my army is made up of a Behemoth [Hyper-Aggression] tyranid detachment and the shooting portion is made up of a Kronos [bio-Barrage] tyranid detachment?"

[Tyriks]

This is a cause for concern. Not panic, but concern.

 

Leaving AoS and 7th out of discussion for just a moment, and looking purely at 8th as it exists now, if you remove the CP reward, there is literally no point to using detachments at all, other than expressing the way your army chooses to organize itself. This can, for example, have an impact on HQ ratio, but that's about it.

 

If a battalion is from a different faction or subfaction, then there is more impact upon the army.

 

Now specialist detachments are a whole other thing, because they've always costed CP.

 

What I predict is that there will be some "Free" detachments. These would be like the current detachments- they confer no advantage what so ever, so they cost nothing. There will also be specialist detachments which do confer some kind of ability. Whether we just keep the Vigilus ones, or whether we get more of them, or they get redone.

 

But if it's just regular BRB detachments, and they try to make us pay for them with CP, who isn't going to just take a brigade and fill all the extra slots?

 

Obviously, I don't know what it will look like, but there has to be more to the story. Paying for something that has no game value is not an effective system.

I completely disagree with you. It does have game value, in that it gives you slots you want. I can't fill the troop requirements of a brigade and have points left to make a list that works, so I will not likely be bringing a brigade unless either brigades or my armies are very different.

[Dark Shepherd]

I think brigades will be very uncommon now, as will the 2 battallion marine combo

 

Rumour is your warlords detachment is free, rest cost CP. Hopefully instead its first battallion is free and rest cost CP.

 

Would like to see battallion changed to allow for up to 4 characters. Maybe some changes to specialist detachments reducing the number of slots for the categories the detachment is not specialising in eg you get 3 to 6 elites you can only take 1 heavy support etc instead of 2

[Fajita Fan]

Which armies need 4 HQs at 1500-1750 pts? Also this will be my 6th edition of 40k and I've never seen an edition that reduced army size or made them more economical, rather each edition has seen model count creep up (dat revenue stream $ $) so I'd be surprised if the game didn't offer an incentive to take more troops choices and then unlock bonuses for fliers, heavies, or new elites. 

 

8th edition 40k and 2nd edition AoS are vastly more similar than they are different so the idea of CP being used to unlock additional detachments sounds an awful lot like warscroll battalions to me.  Say you take a battleforged marine primary detachment and then use CP to unlock the "Special Forces" detachment consisting of three squads (say two units of infiltrators and a hellblaster squad) who get rerolls to hit if they target the same unit. Now you have an incentive to buy new squads and bulk out your existing squads to take advantage of bonuses. 

 

 

Maybe some changes to specialist detachments reducing the number of slots for the categories the detachment is not specialising in eg you get 3 to 6 elites you can only take 1 heavy support etc instead of 2

 

That's how it should've worked to start with. 

[Tyriks]

Which armies need 4 HQs at 1500-1750 pts? 

Since MWBD isn't an aura, Necrons can use that many.  

[Lexington]

I think brigades will be very uncommon now, as will the 2 battallion marine combo

I think we should keep in mind that detachment types could well be different in 9th. They seem to have really focused on changing the ways armies are built. No guarantee that it’ll be any less broken, but I would bet on it at least being different.

[mughi3]

LOL  so who's ready to go back to the old FOC?

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

LOL so who's ready to go back to the old FOC?

I would love a 1500 point old school FOC format without Fylers or LOWs.