9th Ed Speculation Thread

[Khornestar]

 

Nah frater. You’re actively making the thread and the forum worse, and deliberately.

 

You’ve made your point. We get it.

Excuse me? Short of this morning I haven't posted in this thread in weeks. You've been doing far more complaining than I have. I've been biting my tounge and silently reading.

 

 

My apologies, there are so many posts saying the same thing I lost track. That is on me, not you.

[Special Officer Doofy]

- Defiler (Speculative) Is much improved. Protecting characters, moving and shooting without penalty, Blast weapon. With flamers I see him doing a decent job of causing issues. Especially in the specialist detachment.

You reckon we will see more of them in chaos lists now? My next project is to convert one of these up for my DG. If the leaks are true the defiler is still pretty cheap. At least compared to my 170pts PBC's. Keepin' it cheap and giving it some range with the reaper autocannon and havoc launcher. Although I don't have access to the specialist detatchment, I can give it DR and 4++.

[Doom Herald]

Honestly, Primaris were always the one army I was certain I would defeat in late 8th with my NLs. Primaris look good on paper but they tended to crumble to D2 melee weapons. While a lot of my lethality has been robbed by the strat that does mortal wounds on units that fall back was a hit to my DP with One Piece at a Time and the morale rule changes being a hard (I do mean HARD) nerf to Flayer relic, the only thing I think is truly devastating to them would be the new melee Primaris, which I think very few people will use as the meta still seems like it will be shooty. Don't get me wrong, I'm very unhappy about 9th and the way CSM are being handled by the rules team, but I honestly think it might be worse to play Primaris right now with the way they are shoving new units (likely less useful than the current range) and books down everyone's throats.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

This "oh no, we're a terrible army, Chaos sucks, abandon ship!" mentality seems awfully familiar...reminds me of the dark days of 4th & 5th Edition when the Chaos boards here were a veritable cesspool of people proclaiming that the faction is garbage, our codex is terrible, and you should quit playing.

 

We've never hit the height of power we had with the 3.5 codex. Perhaps we never will. But just because Primaris are the new hotness is no reason to jump out the airlock for most people. If you're a competitive player and can't make the faction work for you, sure, sell out to Primaris. No need to complain about it, the rest of us here for the awesome lore, cool models, sweet conversions, and non-tournament games don't want to hear you moan & groan.

Speak for yourself. I rather not sugarcoat it and pretend they are in a good spot.

I didn't sugarcoat anything. I just hate the constant whining. If you can't win with this army, go play something else. It's really that simple. I disliked Chaos in 4th/5th so played Marines. A lot. Got so involved and helpful around here that I was invited to the mod team, in fact.

 

There's more to the game than complaining that one faction is terrible.

[Doom Herald]

I think it's a testament to the creativity of Chaos players that we can get sloppy or repeat nerfed rules and still actually perform quite well. Despite being "Space Marines with worse rules" we were never not a competitively viable team in 8th, atleast that I can think of. I will gripe about the rules, but I will also keep looking for unexpected ways to make them perform. I feel like at the core of it, that's the mindset that makes CSM practical. It's not for everyone, but for me it's part of the fun, regardless of gripes. I really do think Creations of Bile is going to do splendid in 9th, atleast the beginning. I actually want to use my CSM troops in that army. Eldar movement on something with more strength than a Primaris, bolter discipline, an autocannon, and a powerfist/hammer Champion for S10 sounds like a great troop unit to me. I suspect they will either end up nerfing it (which would probably be the less likely outcome) or when they do the new Codex, improving legion traits to be inline with it. Edited July 15, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Drudge Dreadnought]

5th edition was rough because the Chaos Codex was so boring and represented Chaos so poorly, but not because it was super weak or imbalanced compared to loyalists marines. CSM were a fine counterpart for tacticals, for example. It could also field a competitive list with dual lash + oblits. It was just very one dimensional.

 

Our problems now are different. We have lots of different flavorful rules to represent different factions, but the base units they go on aren't what they used to be, and loyalists got stronger special rules and new statlines. So I do sympathize with those who feel very down on chaos right now.

 

That said, we haven't seen what GW intends for the future of chaos. They didn't really attempt to address these issues in PA, which I have always assumed meant a bigger update/change was coming. We know they plan their books 2-2.5 years ahead. The 8th ed second chaos codex was a total flop, and it wouldn't surprise me if they made decisions about what to do about Chaos's rules at that point, but PA was already locked in. If that were the case, I wouldn't have expected to see our rules get addressed before now, and still maybe not till a new 9th ed CSM codex.

 

GW has shown they were happy to layer a ton of special rules on top of the MeQ statline for loyalists. Primaris outshine loyalist oldmarines, but their oldmarines aren't terrible now. If we had our marines equivalent to that, things would mostly be okay. Not perfect, but we'd at least be on par with other non-primaris factions. As for fighting Primaris themselves, at the end of the day they are still multiwound models with no invul. That makes them very inefficient against a lot of weapon types. Primaris are generally too efficient, but I suspect the whole meta will just switch to fielding a lot of d2 weapons. Its silly that it will have to be solved like this and it'll make other matchups a bit silly too, but its not the end of the world.

 

As long as we get a decent rules update for them, i'll be happy that we got to keep our classic units, as that is appropriate for Chaos Space Marines.

Edited July 15, 2020 by Drudge Dreadnought

[MegaVolt87]

I think it's a testament to the creativity of Chaos players that we can get sloppy or repeat nerfed rules and still actually perform quite well. Despite being "Space Marines with worse rules" we were never not a competitively viable team in 8th, atleast that I can think of. I will gripe about the rules, but I will also keep looking for unexpected ways to make them perform. I feel like at the core of it, that's the mindset that makes CSM practical. It's not for everyone, but for me it's part of the fun, regardless of gripes. I really do think Creations of Bile is going to do splendid in 9th, atleast the beginning. I actually want to use my CSM troops in that army. Eldar movement on something with more strength than a Primaris, bolter discipline, an autocannon, and a powerfist/hammer Champion for S10 sounds like a great troop unit to me. I suspect they will either end up nerfing it (which would probably be the less likely outcome) or when they do the new Codex, improving legion traits to be inline with it.

 

Oh yes, I am already thinking about 9th ed despite the problems, yeeting out my 10 man chain cannon squads, rhino's, sicarans, FW dreads etc (from lists) and looking at 5 man CSM units- old reliable las/plas, Autocannon/ melta (combi champs obv). Typhon/Spartan + termi's, melta + fist hellbrutes as throwaway carni's for 9th ed IW's, still brewing ideas. I mean no offence as I am guilty of the end times preaching myself, but I think we CSM players put the ecclesiarchy priests to shame as end times doom sayers.   (still doing primaris though, its the right time to go back to loyalists for me now). 

[Subtle Discord]

It's fine to state and/or agree that something is wrong, but once that's done, the reasonable next step is to start prescribing possible solutions for the reality of the situation; but again, offering the same solution over-and-over once it's been accepted as an option and/or it's rather obvious, well, that quickly looses it's usefulness too. Yes, quitting is an option, but one I'm not willing to entertain along with many others. If that's your solution, great, but does little for us who won't be joining you.

 

There's a saying about it, something about a deceased equine and blunt force trauma?

 

If it's very likely that the people reading a thread have a good idea what your opinion on something will be based on several previous assertions of that opinion, then do you really need to expend your and others time, without at least trying to offer an expanded take and/or a stab at a solution? No, I/we don't have to read it, but you took the time so you're hoping/expecting someone will, so make it constructive, maybe?

[Lord_Starscream]

Actually, people will be happy to know I've opted to just quit the faction. So that's the option I'm taking. Even if it gets fixed, it won't be fixed within the current range, so why bother swimming against the current? I'm pretty done here, after twenty years of playing this faction, I'm washing my hands of it, like many others already have.

 

I've moved towards liquidating anything that was pending, and I'm gonna start liquidating models as I can. But yea, it'll help fund my other projects, which is great, as even if Aedari, Drukhari and Tau got hit during the Price increases, I actually have faith that those factions will get better/worse with time, where as I expect Chaos Space Marines to be a mess for the better part of a decade.

 

Have a good one fellas, best of luck with what's left of this wreckage of an army.

[Lucerne]

Actually, people will be happy to know I've opted to just quit the faction. So that's the option I'm taking. Even if it gets fixed, it won't be fixed within the current range, so why bother swimming against the current? I'm pretty done here, after twenty years of playing this faction, I'm washing my hands of it, like many others already have.

 

I've moved towards liquidating anything that was pending, and I'm gonna start liquidating models as I can. But yea, it'll help fund my other projects, which is great, as even if Aedari, Drukhari and Tau got hit during the Price increases, I actually have faith that those factions will get better/worse with time, where as I expect Chaos Space Marines to be a mess for the better part of a decade.

 

Have a good one fellas, best of luck with what's left of this wreckage of an army.

 

Try Inq28 or counts-as LSM? I remember during the last dark age, space wolves were a recurring "counts as CSM" option.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Lucerne

[Subtle Discord]

I'm happy that you've found a way to make it (hopefully) enjoyable for you however that is, but ultimately what anyone thinks is moot, except for a select few people in each of our lives. Never let this hobby frustrate you. Look around, depending on where you are, you used to need to scratch the surface or look behind the curtain to see the things we don't want to think about but eat away at us, but today we can see it right out in the open; there's plenty to be frustrated with but never a hobby that you use to get away from what's really worth our anger in this world. Heck, if you play 40k in general for really well crafted rules, well, we all know they've created such a convoluted mix of factions, odd imposed constraints and conventions, that all has to please the shareholders, that deep down we know it's all just futile and ultimately up to chance. But yeah, it would be nice for Chaos to roll a double six on their 'new rules test' this time round, that's for sure.

[Irate Khornate]

I speculate that we will have a later edition codex release due to how young codex #2 is

[nanosquid]

The galaxy brain move has always been to play Iron Warriors so your bitter seething is in-chatacter

[MDops]

The galaxy brain move has always been to play Iron Warriors so your bitter seething is in-chatacter

WE would be just as the same. Blind rage at the end and flipping the table

[nanosquid]

I speculate that we will have a later edition codex release due to how young codex #2 is

Thing is, that codex 2 is a weird enigma. It's not actually a new codex at all, but an updated one with vigilus stuff in it. In fact, they outright advertised NOT to buy it if you had the old one and were getting vigilus... still scratching my head as to what their thought process was there. Point is, because of that they may justify it to themselves that it's ok to drop yet another CSM dex soon. I really, really hope not. Orks were one of the last to drop for 8e and they were beyond worth the wait. I'm rebuilding my necron army but I'm terrified that they'll get shafted by inevitable codex creep since they're first this time.

Edited July 16, 2020 by nanosquid

[Cheex]

 

Thing is, that codex 2 is a weird enigma. It's not actually a new codex at all, but an updated one with vigilus stuff in it. In fact, they outright advertised NOT to buy it if you had the old one and were getting vigilus... still scratching my head as to what their thought process was there. Point is, because of that they may justify it to themselves that it's ok to drop yet another CSM dex soon. I really, really hope not. Orks were one of the last to drop for 8e and they were beyond worth the wait. I'm rebuilding my necron army but I'm terrified that they'll get shafted by inevitable codex creep since they're first this time.

 

 

Indeed, and they also provided the updated codex for free to owners of the digital codex. Even the epub version.

 

I think it was an experiment: they used Vigilus and the v2 codex to test multiple methods of delivering mid-edition codex updates and decided that releasing an updated codex was more hassle than it was worth. I don't think anyone else got a v2 codex the same as us - Space Marines not included, since their updated codex was more like a complete edition change.

 

They then settled on smaller updates via campaign books, and a few months later Psychic Awakening started.

 

I don't think the existence of our 8e v2 codex has any bearing on our spot in the queue for getting a 9e codex. The only thing that matters to GW is whether they have new models for that faction; I don't think it matters how old or new the previous codex was, or which faction "deserves" an update.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

I speculate that we will have a later edition codex release due to how young codex #2 is

Thing is, that codex 2 is a weird enigma. It's not actually a new codex at all, but an updated one with vigilus stuff in it. In fact, they outright advertised NOT to buy it if you had the old one and were getting vigilus... still scratching my head as to what their thought process was there. Point is, because of that they may justify it to themselves that it's ok to drop yet another CSM dex soon. I really, really hope not. Orks were one of the last to drop for 8e and they were beyond worth the wait. I'm rebuilding my necron army but I'm terrified that they'll get shafted by inevitable codex creep since they're first this time.

 

 

I'm not worried about Codex creep right now because we've already got it. We're waiting to be caught up to the new standard of special rules defined by the SM codex, which is probably also going to get updated in early 9th to have PA and the new primaris units in it. Getting brought up to the level of SM soon is good for us.

 

My prediction is that we're going to see new codices for SM and Necrons immediately, and then CSM shortly after with a switch to Supplements for 1ksons and DG. AdMech is also likely to get a new book early due to all their new units. CSM getting their book early makes sense given their lack of traits, etc in PA books. Most factions are currently pretty much up to date between their current codex and PA book.

[Relic]

Chaos gets some regular love (of a..kind) from GW so i'd not expect us to be out in the cold for too long, even if what we eventually get is watered down cheap beer compared to Space Marine cousins with the odd super trick for CSM that gets discovered by using combinations. 

 

Oh and in my test games of 9th as we know it so far, those humble Rhinos with a havoc launcer that were a bit dusty have done well! Having something cheap with wounds to sit on an objective with a unit inside is clutch in 9th so far for me. The Havoc launcher going from poor mans Heavy Bolter to a cheaper and better Heavy Bolter is also welcome.  

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Question: triple Disco Lords seem to be out due to point increase, but what about just one? Since most daemon vehicles seem buffed this new edition his buff to them will be relevant and important, right? Just that rather than Just disco’s there’ll be one disco and a group of other vehicles Or?

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Question: triple Disco Lords seem to be out due to point increase, but what about just one? Since most daemon vehicles seem buffed this new edition his buff to them will be relevant and important, right? Just that rather than Just disco’s there’ll be one disco and a group of other vehicles Or?

 

He's great for it, but he's going to be the first thing anybody shoots. So I guess stack whatever defensive buffs you can on him and make them work for it.

[Annatar Giftbringer]

That’s what I wanted to hear :)

 

I’ve been meaning to get one since they were released, but it’s always been “soon”, “next time”, “not today”. Since daemon engines overall got a boost by 9th (and I like the idea of demonic mecha monsters!) this might just be the perfect time to focus on that part of the book!

 

Perhaps it could be a good idea to give him mark of Nurgle, so he can regain wounds?

 

EDIT: Nevermind, Grandfather’s Blessings only works on infantry and bikes...

Edited July 16, 2020 by Annatar Giftbringer

[Excessus]

Stack a MoP with the healing psychic power behind him and he can regain 3 wounds per turn.

[Annatar Giftbringer]

That’s a good idea, thanks! I’m just not sure how to keep the footslogging MoP within range When the Disco Lord and his pets charge forth with maximum speed? The new outflanking stratagem might help, I guess?

[Excessus]

He only need to be in range at the start, when the discolord is stuck in combat he has time to catch up.

[Panzer]

The galaxy brain move has always been to play Iron Warriors so your bitter seething is in-chatacter

I opted into EC instead so now I can just enjoy the agony.

 

Stack a MoP with the healing psychic power behind him and he can regain 3 wounds per turn.

More healing is definitely a nice thing. I plan to use the Living Carapace relic from Creations of Bile on him for a basically 1+ armour and an additional 1 wound regenerated per turn. Also T7 because of course I'd use the character enhance stratagem on him.

Edited July 16, 2020 by Panzer