Panzer Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 It's annoying but since it seemed like not everyone would get specialist detachments anyway, my T'au included, I'm not too sad about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5566934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 Dumb decision. It's always seemed like there's two groups not in agreement writing rules. With two very different visions of how the game should be. The BL bits are still valid, though, right? That's something. But losing Host Raptorial, Bringers, etc.- just really hurts Chaos. Once again, you can tell that no one plays it on the Dev team. Yeah, all the renegade and BL rules should still work since only Specialist Detachments are named. The nerfs just keep coming. Although, I suppose having to spend normally 2+ CP to actually get use out of the detachments wasnt particularly great anyway. I'm having minor regret deciding to go ahead and order my rulebook now. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5566981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 It is salt in the wound about specialist detachments. Pretty sure SM got their specialist detachment stratagems and relics rolled into their books at least. Losing dev battery robs TS and DG of a good firebase with purge/ the scourged renegades havocs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567151 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrainFireBob Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I was really looking forward to Abaddon, Bringers Lord, and 2 combiplasma termie squads, both with full rerolls techsoldaten 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 We'll have to see if any of our specialist detachment stuff gets rolled into our next codex. MegaVolt87 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567219 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snazzy Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I was really looking forward to Abaddon, Bringers Lord, and 2 combiplasma termie squads, both with full rerolls I ran this, albeit with the Chaos Lord. I will miss how hard this hits. On the other hand, Terminators stand to make decent attackers of obscuring terrain. Fire both weapons of your Combi-Weapon. The to-hit penalty is capped. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567224 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanosquid Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I'm not sad to see specialist detachments go. I'm forever insulted by the fact that the Devastation Battery, which they touted as being great for Iron Warriors, featured a relic that let nearby models ignore cover, and one of its two strategems let you re-roll damage vs buildings. You know, the two things that the iron warriors legion trait does. Doctor Perils, Llagos_Tyrant, techsoldaten and 4 others 7 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulwyf Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I play several armies but almost all of them are Chaos related: Death Guard, Emperor's Children and Night Lords to be specific. I am somewhat optimistic about DG because I think 9th is going to be about holding objectives more than anything else. As for the pure CSM armies, well, the morale change right now makes NL trait even more worthless. I expect the news I was told like two years ago or so that EC and WE are getting their own codex and Fulgrim/Angron are coming back to 40k to come true at some point in 9th. So EC could potentially get a major upgrade. CSM needs a basic overhaul of units. Cult troops need to be two wounds to try and match the Primaris. Call it Chaos juice if you want as to why cult troops get 2 wounds and not regular CSM. If they want to really keep Primaris from going Chaos, great, no problem: buff up the existing units to make them competitive with Primaris. You are supposed to fall to Chaos to get new powers and abilities to be *better* than you were as a regular Astartes. It should never, ever be the other way around. Doctor Perils, techsoldaten and Lucerne 3 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567261 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I'm not sad to see specialist detachments go. I'm forever insulted by the fact that the Devastation Battery, which they touted as being great for Iron Warriors, featured a relic that let nearby models ignore cover, and one of its two strategems let you re-roll damage vs buildings. You know, the two things that the iron warriors legion trait does. I wonder if GW realise that by eliminating specialist detachments from tournaments they have also basically removed them from regular matched play as well effectively for many people. They should have marketed the dev battery more towards DG and TS with a "sorry for you DG and TS guys (and gals!) having garbage AT capability, here with dev battery you can get 12 lascannons to pick up the slack, be more effective for you before they get shot off the board because we dropped them to 5 man units, oh and they have 40mm bases as well, so just buy the new havocs. Hey check out this reaper chain cannon, its the answer you wanted to chew through those primaris chaps, you get one in every box! Enjoy." That's how I read all that from GW when all that went down at the time. Bulwyf and techsoldaten 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudge Dreadnought Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 One of the best things GW could do in a new Chaos Codex is put Havocs back to 10 man max squad size. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 One of the best things GW could do in a new Chaos Codex is put Havocs back to 10 man max squad size.That will never happen after their change though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567267 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanosquid Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 As has been stated eighty trillion times by now, the new havocs should REALLY have 2 wounds. Doctor Perils, MegaVolt87, Squike and 4 others 7 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Mor Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 2 Wound chosen in the troops role would make me quite happy and give us a primaris style unit for actually contesting objectives effectively. Llagos_Tyrant, Gumo9, techsoldaten and 2 others 5 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doom Herald Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 (edited) It's the loss of the Host Raptorial and Soulforged Pack trait that really bites into me... I expect nothing but they take instead so that they can continue to disappoint me. As to whether they know that removing specialist detachments from tournaments will effectively remove them from matched play, I don't know, but I do know they don't care either way. I remember bringing up the rule of 3 being more of a nuisance than a fix on the community page and being told "it's just a recommendation for tournaments, you and TOs don't have to use those rules." Make it a rule across the board or don't make it at all. This half hearted applying rules "kinda but only if this happens" is getting to me more than everything else they do. Edited July 21, 2020 by Doom Herald Tallarn Commander and nanosquid 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Incompetence Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I don't think removing the specialist detachments is a terrible choice in the long run. They were alright, but it always felt like they were there to fix units that they could've just fixed by rewriting some of their rules or changing the stats. Hell, just putting some of those stratagems in the 2.0 Codex would've fixed half the units. Instead we had to pay CP to get access to stratagems, warlord traits or relics to make stuff actually worth considering. That's just bad design no matter how you look at it. So I'm hopeful that going forward, we won't see a repeat of the Vigilus detachments for campaign books, but rather just sensible rules being written for units and campaign books more akin to PA, where you just get extra stuff with no strings attached. nanosquid and techsoldaten 2 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espresso Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 It has always been the same for the past few editions. The Chaos Space Marines are a PA army which requires a host of passive buffs and rules to make the baseline unit work and be worth its price in points. Upon this the codex requires a proper, systematic way, to integrate the legion doctrines in the Undivided Legions and the Marks of Chaos in the Cult Legions. That being the rule part. In gameplay terms the Chaos Space Marines codex is in dire need of a new way of transportation to allow it to play in the modern 40k which is a game much more focussed on mobility and unit placement. The Achilles Heel of the codex is the multi-profile approach. What this means? Well the Codex has such a diverse wealth of unit profiles, stats and keywords that attempting any form of synergy or unit coherency is almost impossible. Almost. If the codex upscales all the "Marine" units to a single base profile similar to the "Possessed" one or in that range, it could work. I had not yet had the pleasure to play a game in the 9th and I am really looking forward to test my Chaos Knights, Thousand Sons and Black Legion armies with the new rules. What I had seen in various battle reports across the net is that the Chaos Space Marines are woefully unadapted to this new 40k. Mobility will break us. We cannot move around, we cannot shift in a turn from one part of the board to the next, we cannot deploy where needed and we struggle to respond to the deep strike threats that the other armies can reliably deploy. Maybe with the Strategic Reserves we could address some of this problems but this requires lists working with this concept. The Daemon Engines could be fun but the other armies got the better deal of it. Save for the Defiler, we have to rely on a dedicated melee critter or a shooting critter and both Fiends are underwhelming. The key tricks from the previous edition got either more expensive or were removed (special detachments) which leaves us with rather subpar legion rules and situational stratagems. We can use more tricks, yes. Too bad that we have so few of them, or good ones. On spot I foresee a viable moving firebase list with Abaddon working. An Enginezilla list could be fun (though some list can now demolish it easily) and the Creations of Bile have given us some options... The CSM start the 9th in a bad shape and upon them pends the Damocles Sword of the "pending" first codexes release in a new edition which since 2012 it has never proven good for us. I hope this time it will be better. techsoldaten 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567344 Share on other sites More sharing options...
techsoldaten Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I was really looking forward to Abaddon, Bringers Lord, and 2 combiplasma termie squads, both with full rerolls Me too. The trouble with Bringers of Despair was the lack of ObSec. Had too many battles where a single Ork was still standing on an objective. Other than that, this was the perfect detachment for objective grabbing. Would have been very useful in 9th edition. I don't think removing the specialist detachments is a terrible choice in the long run. They were alright, but it always felt like they were there to fix units that they could've just fixed by rewriting some of their rules or changing the stats. Hell, just putting some of those stratagems in the 2.0 Codex would've fixed half the units. Instead we had to pay CP to get access to stratagems, warlord traits or relics to make stuff actually worth considering. That's just bad design no matter how you look at it. So I'm hopeful that going forward, we won't see a repeat of the Vigilus detachments for campaign books, but rather just sensible rules being written for units and campaign books more akin to PA, where you just get extra stuff with no strings attached. TBH Specialist detachments were making list building too complex. I made an attempt to playtest every specialist detachment at least once. This was before Psychic Awakening, it got me to the point where every army looked like 3 detachments that needed to synergize. Everything started to look a certain way and it felt like I was on a track. I will miss the Vigilus detachments but I am for less complexity overall. We'll have to see if any of our specialist detachment stuff gets rolled into our next codex. Can you think of anything from Traitor's Hate or Traitor Legions that made it over to 8th edition? Neither can I. As has been stated eighty trillion times by now, the new havocs should REALLY have 2 wounds. 2 Wound chosen in the troops role would make me quite happy and give us a primaris style unit for actually contesting objectives effectively. Part of why Primaris irk me is because Chaos has enhanced marines with statlines that are nowhere near as good. Undercuts the whole turning to the Dark Gods for greater might narrative. Havocs, Possessed, Chosen, Cult Marines all fit into this category of missed opportunity. In general, between editions, GW doesn't buff units with models that already exist. They save the good rules for new releases. I'm not optimistic they would bring these guys up a notch. More realistically, I could see an Emperor's Children / World Eaters release that includes new sculpts and 2W models. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567382 Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanosquid Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I don't share the pessimism about deamon engines. You're going to see a lot of venomcrawlers going forward - decent movement, user str guns that synergize with multiple buffs, t7 10w, 36" assault, underappreciated melee, and those guns didn't get the blast trait so they can fire in melee too (which the venomcrawler very much can survive a turn of after it charges). Using the Discordant for his actual buffing aura makes them that much better, too. MDops 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeternus Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Does anyone know when roughly the FW 9th edition indexes are gonna drop, or if they've said anything bout it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 No solid info on that, unfortunately. MDops 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567619 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Mor Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 They’ve been announced to drop at the same time as 9th but if that were true I’d have expected them on preorder already so maybe they’ll just be out for preorder on the weekend? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567670 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Maybe they're free updates? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567780 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted July 21, 2020 Author Share Posted July 21, 2020 Maybe they're free updates? Man, I sure am skeptical that is a real possibility at all. I could be wrong, though! I bet legends will be free, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5567798 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MDops Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) I don't share the pessimism about deamon engines. You're going to see a lot of venomcrawlers going forward - decent movement, user str guns that synergize with multiple buffs, t7 10w, 36" assault, underappreciated melee, and those guns didn't get the blast trait so they can fire in melee too (which the venomcrawler very much can survive a turn of after it charges). Using the Discordant for his actual buffing aura makes them that much better, too. I thought that they were/are good in 8th as a mobile fire base/hellbrute replacement. My main issue is they need their own kit seperate to the start collecting box... Edited July 23, 2020 by MDops Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5568552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaVolt87 Posted July 26, 2020 Share Posted July 26, 2020 Just thought I would mention, with new SM dex leaks, IF's chapter tactic changed to only ignoring light cover for shooting. So, playing my IW's I look forward to how every piece of cover will now be heavy cover coincidently when we are changed also. Llagos_Tyrant 1 Back to top Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/364240-9th-ed-speculation-thread/page/19/#findComment-5571225 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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