9th Ed Speculation Thread

[MegaVolt87]

I disagree on having strats that do things like shooting disrupts etc, I would rather see actual units pointed and balanced that can do those things, not blanket rules/ faction wide buffs/ aura's that can do it. Subverting core mechanics and rules should be at a premium you pay the army points for the privalage. There should be risk Vs reward if you want to subvert the rules, CP is a negligable penalty IMO, it should be in the army comp where player skill and unit choices will and should matter. 

[Irate Khornate]

I am ignoring Chaos soup but I always thought running soup was selling out anyway.

I disagree slightly as the army that brought me whole heartedly into the game (addiction) was Khorne Daemonkin.

 

An army that unfortunately does not exist any longer without soup. Plus soup is the only way my daemons will ever see the table without getting tabled turn 3.

[Special Officer Doofy]

I honestly want to get rid of all the strats that disrupt/interupt/counter. The game is already getting a magic the gathering vibe with the "stack" on what's happening. I'm hoping the +/- modifier limit that was used on hit as an example applies to other things. I guess maybe not LD since it's already kind of not useful. Falling back needs an overwatch that gives melee a chance to swing before the unit runs.

[Schurge]

 

I am ignoring Chaos soup but I always thought running soup was selling out anyway.

I disagree slightly as the army that brought me whole heartedly into the game (addiction) was Khorne Daemonkin.

 

An army that unfortunately does not exist any longer without soup. Plus soup is the only way my daemons will ever see the table without getting tabled turn 3.

When I say soup I refer more to people running a batallion with cultists and Thousand Sons characters, a second battalion with more cultists and a Nurgle Possessed bomb, and a third battalion with three MSU squads of Nurglings.

 

Daemonkin was a bandaid fix in 7th that gave Khorne bonuses for sucking, IMO. I'd hardly call a detachment of Khorne marines alongside a detachment of Khorne daemons in 8th soup. It may even be worse then running pure Khorne marines as Khorne daemons will be redundant in many Khorne marine lists.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Schurge

[Khornestar]

 

 

I am ignoring Chaos soup but I always thought running soup was selling out anyway.

I disagree slightly as the army that brought me whole heartedly into the game (addiction) was Khorne Daemonkin.

An army that unfortunately does not exist any longer without soup. Plus soup is the only way my daemons will ever see the table without getting tabled turn 3.

When I say soup I refer more to people running a batallion with cultists and Thousand Sons characters, a second battalion with more cultists and a Nurgle Possessed bomb, and a third battalion with three MSU squads of Nurglings.

Daemonkin was a bandaid fix in 7th that gave Khorne bonuses for sucking, IMO. I'd hardly call a detachment of Khorne marines alongside a detachment of Khorne daemons in 8th soup. It may even be worse then running pure Khorne marines as Khorne daemons will be redundant in many Khorne marine lists.

I agree, though despite their gimpy nature it seems now we will be cp-penalized for mixing in that way. Really, still speculation.

[Doom Herald]

I honestly want to get rid of all the strats that disrupt/interupt/counter. The game is already getting a magic the gathering vibe with the "stack" on what's happening. I'm hoping the +/- modifier limit that was used on hit as an example applies to other things. I guess maybe not LD since it's already kind of not useful. Falling back needs an overwatch that gives melee a chance to swing before the unit runs.

If it does apply to more, I'm hoping it is applied to all rolls but not to stat values. It definitely wouldnt make sense to apply it to LD if they are saying Night Lords are going to perform better in 9th rules. Having a Legion trait that stacks up to a -3 debuff being unable to do so because the modifier maxes at +/- 1 would be horrible, further it would take away from the reasoning of using Raptors in a NL army. On the note of Raptors, better chainswords sounds like raptors might actually have a place in 9th, outside of being a plasma/melta platform.

[Doom Herald]

As far as souping, have they said they are going to penalize taking a second detachment for soup more than just taking a second detachment? In regards to Khorne Daemonkin, if KHORNE is the army faction, is it really soup? In 8th, it seems like IMPERIUM, CHAOS, ELDAR and to lesser degrees YNNARI and TYRANIDS were the main focus of anti-soup rules.

[Irate Khornate]

It is technically soup because it comes with the penalties of being soup. Namely the vast majority of special rules and all stratagems get dropped.

[Special Officer Doofy]

 

I honestly want to get rid of all the strats that disrupt/interupt/counter. The game is already getting a magic the gathering vibe with the "stack" on what's happening. I'm hoping the +/- modifier limit that was used on hit as an example applies to other things. I guess maybe not LD since it's already kind of not useful. Falling back needs an overwatch that gives melee a chance to swing before the unit runs.

If it does apply to more, I'm hoping it is applied to all rolls but not to stat values. It definitely wouldnt make sense to apply it to LD if they are saying Night Lords are going to perform better in 9th rules. Having a Legion trait that stacks up to a -3 debuff being unable to do so because the modifier maxes at +/- 1 would be horrible, further it would take away from the reasoning of using Raptors in a NL army. On the note of Raptors, better chainswords sounds like raptors might actually have a place in 9th, outside of being a plasma/melta platform.

O I'm sure it's rolls not stats. There is so many ways to stack stats with relics and warlord traits and spells. But the rolls, yeah. I didn't think clearly before I posted that haha.

[Kain Mor]

The fact that they’re upping the points on basically everything for the start of 9th worries me greatly. I can already barely afford a functional army that isn’t disco-lord spam as it is, and if all of our power armor goes up 2-4 points I think we’re going to be hit really hard with the “elites suck” bat. Especially since our elites can barely do what’s on the tin compared to loyalist marines.

[Schurge]

The fact that they’re upping the points on basically everything for the start of 9th worries me greatly. I can already barely afford a functional army that isn’t disco-lord spam as it is, and if all of our power armor goes up 2-4 points I think we’re going to be hit really hard with the “elites suck” bat. Especially since our elites can barely do what’s on the tin compared to loyalist marines.

 

Maybe our units will actually start to function as intended... one can dream, right?

[Azekai]

The fact that they’re upping the points on basically everything for the start of 9th worries me greatly. I can already barely afford a functional army that isn’t disco-lord spam as it is, and if all of our power armor goes up 2-4 points I think we’re going to be hit really hard with the “elites suck” bat. Especially since our elites can barely do what’s on the tin compared to loyalist marines.

It will change what a ‘functional’ army is.

 

I welcome higher costs. Part of the current issue is that strong meta armies can take everything. They can be very deadly at range while still having plenty of troops and armor and mobility. They can buy everything at 2k and that removes a lot of armies Achilles heel.

 

Having less on the table means less redundancy. If that goofy primaris Uber tank whiffs some important shots, there won’t be 2 more and a couple dev squads waiting to accomplish the same task.

[WarriorFish]

It's an interesting thing, perhaps this is intended to reflect an improvement in the elite army's standing? One thing we can be sure of is that a lot is changing, the soon we know the big picture the better! "Delete the Battlescribe lists folder to start again" levels of change it seems...

[Doom Herald]

It is technically soup because it comes with the penalties of being soup. Namely the vast majority of special rules and all stratagems get dropped.

If you have 1 WORLD EATERS detachment and 1 KHORNE DAEMON detachment, they don't lose anything. The army is KHORNE soup, but there are no penalties and current Battle Brothers rules don't prevent it. Synergy isn't totally consistent, but you don't really lose anything. I'm hoping soup like that doesn't get penalized beyond a second detachment always costs CP.

 

On that note, CHAOS might have the best CP generation in 9th, given we have Red Corsairs.

[Slave to Darkness]

 

The fact that they’re upping the points on basically everything for the start of 9th worries me greatly. I can already barely afford a functional army that isn’t disco-lord spam as it is, and if all of our power armor goes up 2-4 points I think we’re going to be hit really hard with the “elites suck” bat. Especially since our elites can barely do what’s on the tin compared to loyalist marines.

It will change what a ‘functional’ army is.

 

I welcome higher costs. Part of the current issue is that strong meta armies can take everything. They can be very deadly at range while still having plenty of troops and armor and mobility. They can buy everything at 2k and that removes a lot of armies Achilles heel.

 

Having less on the table means less redundancy. If that goofy primaris Uber tank whiffs some important shots, there won’t be 2 more and a couple dev squads waiting to accomplish the same task.

 

I always thought smaller games were better, you have to think about army selection more than just take all the cool stuff.

[Azekai]

 

 

The fact that they’re upping the points on basically everything for the start of 9th worries me greatly. I can already barely afford a functional army that isn’t disco-lord spam as it is, and if all of our power armor goes up 2-4 points I think we’re going to be hit really hard with the “elites suck” bat. Especially since our elites can barely do what’s on the tin compared to loyalist marines.

It will change what a ‘functional’ army is.

 

I welcome higher costs. Part of the current issue is that strong meta armies can take everything. They can be very deadly at range while still having plenty of troops and armor and mobility. They can buy everything at 2k and that removes a lot of armies Achilles heel.

 

Having less on the table means less redundancy. If that goofy primaris Uber tank whiffs some important shots, there won’t be 2 more and a couple dev squads waiting to accomplish the same task.

 

I always thought smaller games were better, you have to think about army selection more than just take all the cool stuff.

 

I agree. 40k is an I-go-you-go game, therefore, weight of fire gets cripplingly potent at higher points values; whoever goes second can often be missing huge chunks of their armies. In a smaller game, you may still take a beating, but something like First Blood isn't necessarily a foregone conclusion. And even if your enemy does have a lot of long-range firepower, they likely don't have much else. 

 

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'm thinking it could be good for my Emperor's Children now as I don't need to now try and cram as many detachments for command points in so can explore non troops options.
My Thousand sons however, are going to struggle to use more then one cult in most games I suspect.

[Irate Khornate]

I'm now hoping that overwatch is going to be turned into a stratagem.

[Doom Herald]

That would be amazing, but I doubt it. Especially with vehicles shooting in combat, I feel like something serious needs to be done to bring things in balance between shooting and melee. J know they said they are doing that, but I have a gut feeling they will fall very short or do s ok mething to overcompensate for the improvement to melee and just make shooting way better again.

[Prot]

I'd still see massive value in having a shooting interrupt. I can almost guarantee any actual game mechanic that tries to leverage and minimize first turn shooting advantages is too complicated and very unlikely to appear in the game rules. Maybe the biggest failure of this has been Terrain rules. 

 

Besides that, it counter balances the charge interrupt. That is to say, remove the charge interrupt, and I'd feel better about no shooting interrupt. What good for the goose...

 

The point increases have spooked me. I mean seeing the point increase in units across the board is completely expected, however the increase to a cultist in relation to an Intercessor is very strange. It might indicate an attempt to decrease spam lists?

 

Then again we don't know the 'value' of a troop yet. Today the designers claimed the internet was over reacting. (Guess what GW? That's what happens when you trickle information over a long period of time!) They went on to say that they felt the changes were far less potent, and game changing then we are making it out to be. 

 

If that's true, I think maybe our greatest value add in 9th will be terrain function.

 

Chaos is such a dynamic army; able to bring so many looks to the table. I really hope this time.. CSM becomes a real player when something new (Fabius Bile's creations?) get released.  Right now there isn't a lot of motivation to sell all our old models. I know I bought heavily into the upgrade provided by the Vanguard Strike box set stuff. 

[Khornestar]

I'd still see massive value in having a shooting interrupt. I can almost guarantee any actual game mechanic that tries to leverage and minimize first turn shooting advantages is too complicated and very unlikely to appear in the game rules. Maybe the biggest failure of this has been Terrain rules. 

 

Besides that, it counter balances the charge interrupt. That is to say, remove the charge interrupt, and I'd feel better about no shooting interrupt. What good for the goose...

 

The point increases have spooked me. I mean seeing the point increase in units across the board is completely expected, however the increase to a cultist in relation to an Intercessor is very strange. It might indicate an attempt to decrease spam lists?

 

Then again we don't know the 'value' of a troop yet. Today the designers claimed the internet was over reacting. (Guess what GW? That's what happens when you trickle information over a long period of time!) They went on to say that they felt the changes were far less potent, and game changing then we are making it out to be. 

 

If that's true, I think maybe our greatest value add in 9th will be terrain function.

 

Chaos is such a dynamic army; able to bring so many looks to the table. I really hope this time.. CSM becomes a real player when something new (Fabius Bile's creations?) get released.  Right now there isn't a lot of motivation to sell all our old models. I know I bought heavily into the upgrade provided by the Vanguard Strike box set stuff. 

 

 

GW is also clearly not the best judge of what is or isn't "good" in their own game, as evidenced by their surprise at how tournament armies actually looked and subsequent reactions and changes to the game. The changes legitimately sound great, but it's only a matter of time before all the things they failed to see coming rear their heads and reveal the flaws of the new edition. Truly not a criticism, it's just how it goes. Players are some wily, crafty little :cuss and will do this in every game. Just saying I'm taking their admonishments with a grain of salt. 

 

Very curious what the War of the Spider (is that what it's called?) brings to the faction. I hope you're right about Bile heralding something new for the faction, and not just a new model. 

[Schurge]

What could Bile possibly bring for us that shakes up the entire faction? I don't think many Chaos players want Primaris clones, if anything we want all existing units to have +1 wound and +1 attack baked in to represent us thriving in the warp for 10,000 years.

 

EDIT: This post isn't meant to be combative.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Schurge

[Khornestar]

What could Bile possibly bring for us that shakes up the entire faction? I don't think many Chaos players want Primaris clones, if anything we want all existing units to have +1 wound and +1 attack baked in to represent us thriving in the warp for 10,000 years. 

 

I'd say what you want is exactly the sort of thing Bile could bring us. Rather than have it be explained by 10,000 years of snorting warp dust, it'll be explained by Bile's newest batch of warp salts, and we'll pay 3 CP per unit upgraded in such a way. Semi-snarky, but if it happens, I think there's a safe bet it will happen this way. Even so, I'm willing to go out on a limb and say if the upgrade does exist (no guarantee, pure speculation), it would be approached in a reasonable way. A maxed out unit of chaos marines with +1 wound and attack would be awesome.

[Doom Herald]

I would rather just have marks actually do something. +1T for Nurgle, +1S for Khorne, +1A for Slaanesh, improved/6+ invulnerable for Tzeentch. In Primaris land, that's not asking too much I think.

 

Edit:

Just saw the new detachment rules. Between that and the 50% cultist point increase to the much smaller percentage increase Primaris had, my small hopes for 9th are dashed. This edition is going to really, REALLLY, suck. I can't believe they cited cultist spam as a concern. If you want to see less Cultists, make troop CSM better, not cultists more expensive. We only take Cultists because when both choices are trash but you have to take one, you take the cheaper trash.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Captain Incompetence]

I'm hoping that Games Workshop's rules team paid attention to the outrage from the CSM playerbase (and to lesser extend the entirety of the 40K playerbase) after the Space Marine 2.0 Codex came out. If GW puts even half as much effort into all the other codices as they did with the Space Marine 2.0 one, I'll be happy.

 

The biggest thing that I want out of the new edition is just survivability for every single marine stat line. Single wound space marines have just got to go as a whole. No matter what you do with them, they'll never end up remotely close to what they're supposed to be like. This is especially painful for Plague Marines and Death Guard who seem to have the resilience of a wet noodle on the tabletop. I understand Games Workshop wants to make Primaris stand out from the rest, but right now it feels ridiculous how much better they are at literally everything in comparison to a standard marine. I really do hope they close that gap, though I don't have high hopes for it.